!!!!!!!!MOTHER OF ALL Stillen Header Threads!!!!!!!!!!
11-17-2003, 11:11 AM
#1
!!!!!!!!MOTHER OF ALL Stillen Header Threads!!!!!!!!!!
I was asked to merge all these threads. However, there were too many OT posts to weed out PLUS it would be confusing once they were all put together into one thread arranged by date/time posted, IMO.
PLEASE KEEP ALL STILLEN HEADER RELATED POSTS HERE, so they are all in one place for people to easily find.
If I missed any threads with VALID data/dynos/results, PLEASE post a link in here and I'll add it.
studman:
http://forums.maxima.org/5th-generat...o-results.html
WILLSE:
http://forums.maxima.org/5th-generat...n-headers.html
http://forums.maxima.org/5th-generat...er-dyno-s.html
1BADMAX:
http://forums.maxima.org/5th-generat...o-numbers.html
juice:
http://forums.maxima.org/5th-generat...o-numbers.html
http://forums.maxima.org/5th-generat...1hp-232tq.html
PLEASE KEEP ALL STILLEN HEADER RELATED POSTS HERE, so they are all in one place for people to easily find.
If I missed any threads with VALID data/dynos/results, PLEASE post a link in here and I'll add it.
studman:
http://forums.maxima.org/5th-generat...o-results.html
WILLSE:
http://forums.maxima.org/5th-generat...n-headers.html
http://forums.maxima.org/5th-generat...er-dyno-s.html
1BADMAX:
http://forums.maxima.org/5th-generat...o-numbers.html
juice:
http://forums.maxima.org/5th-generat...o-numbers.html
http://forums.maxima.org/5th-generat...1hp-232tq.html
Last edited by Puppetmaster; 03-24-2009 at 10:34 PM.
$tillen 
...................
...........
11-17-2003, 03:44 PM
#8
Any progress on getting a bone stock Max BEFORE/AFTER dyno?
I mean...how could Stillen argue then?
Otherwise, they'll come up with all kinds of excuses. I still think it's funny they *SUPPOSEDLY* had all these dynos with 4-different designs, yet NONE have been available to view. Sounds fishy to me!
I mean...how could Stillen argue then?
Otherwise, they'll come up with all kinds of excuses. I still think it's funny they *SUPPOSEDLY* had all these dynos with 4-different designs, yet NONE have been available to view. Sounds fishy to me!
11-17-2003, 04:23 PM
#9
Originally Posted by IceY2K1
Any progress on getting a bone stock Max BEFORE/AFTER dyno?
I mean...how could Stillen argue then?
Otherwise, they'll come up with all kinds of excuses. I still think it's funny they *SUPPOSEDLY* had all these dynos with 4-different designs, yet NONE have been available to view. Sounds fishy to me!
I mean...how could Stillen argue then?
Otherwise, they'll come up with all kinds of excuses. I still think it's funny they *SUPPOSEDLY* had all these dynos with 4-different designs, yet NONE have been available to view. Sounds fishy to me!
I guess Will and I could always switch the headers to my car, since it is stock exhaust (only perfromance mod is the GAB). Problem is, I have a conference in Savannah I have to attend this week, so that throws a nice kink in the works. I think with Adam's help (maximaman777), we (Will, Adam, and I) could get the swap done in no time at all to either his car or mine. We will do it, but it's just a matter of timing (as usual
)...That and I'm helping Bags rebuild/re-install his engine this week as well...
I'm just a busy beaver
11-18-2003, 09:49 AM
#11
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,279
U DA MAN ICE!!!!!!!!!!! this is the great i was having trouble finding each thread so i could get the other numbers for stillen. glen dynoed as well. i think his results might be in the ones listed above.
******ANYONE WHO DYNO'D THE HEADERS******
please send a copy of your dyno to player98@bellsouth.net this will enable me to fax or scan these results when stillen asks for proof. title the email STILLEN HEADERS please. without the print out ur numbers mean nothing. THANKS GUYS!!!
i was reading in the ESM that the O2 sensors do actually effect air/fuel which is interesting. the ESM clearly states
"The heated oxygen sensor 2, AFTER three way catalyst, monitors the oxygen level in the exhaust gas on each back. Even if switching characteristics of the heated oxygen sensor 1 are shifted, the air fuel ratio is controlled to stoichmetric, by the signal from the heated oxygen sensor 2. This sensor is made of ceramic zirconia. The zirconia generats voltage from approximately 1V in richer conditions to 0V in leaner conditions. Un normal conditions the heated oxygen sensor 2 is not used for engine control." i find that interesting since many people have told me that the rear O2s dont effect performance. i consider adjusting the A/F ratio to the certain reading as a performance related change. now this leads up back to that infamous black box. how can i monitor the signal that the black box is sending?
im still hunting for the problem. i will call stillen in a few minutes.
will
******ANYONE WHO DYNO'D THE HEADERS******
please send a copy of your dyno to player98@bellsouth.net this will enable me to fax or scan these results when stillen asks for proof. title the email STILLEN HEADERS please. without the print out ur numbers mean nothing. THANKS GUYS!!!
i was reading in the ESM that the O2 sensors do actually effect air/fuel which is interesting. the ESM clearly states
"The heated oxygen sensor 2, AFTER three way catalyst, monitors the oxygen level in the exhaust gas on each back. Even if switching characteristics of the heated oxygen sensor 1 are shifted, the air fuel ratio is controlled to stoichmetric, by the signal from the heated oxygen sensor 2. This sensor is made of ceramic zirconia. The zirconia generats voltage from approximately 1V in richer conditions to 0V in leaner conditions. Un normal conditions the heated oxygen sensor 2 is not used for engine control." i find that interesting since many people have told me that the rear O2s dont effect performance. i consider adjusting the A/F ratio to the certain reading as a performance related change. now this leads up back to that infamous black box. how can i monitor the signal that the black box is sending?
im still hunting for the problem. i will call stillen in a few minutes.
will
11-18-2003, 10:03 AM
#12
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,279
justy got off the phone with stillen. the guy claims that the other dynos dont mean anything bc there was no baseline. he then said well u have some extreme mods to ur car and i replied with ya but i was told with the mods that i have i would gain even MORE hp which i found to be untrue. the guy i just talked to was sayin that he is gonna get the R&D dept to call me and explain it to me or something. that still doesnt do anythnign for me. i want my power or my money. END OF STORY. im gettin rather frustrated since all that i have accomplished at stillen is talking to every damn person at that place. all i do is get put on hold, transfered, or told i will get a call back and never receive one. i will call them in 1 hour if i dont hear anything. i will get more information today one way or another.
will
will
11-18-2003, 10:20 AM
#13
Still Here... IM me for more..
iTrader: (10)
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: San Fernando Valley CALI
Posts: 2,129
Man, that just SUCKS A$$! $teallin is really showing his true colors... Remind me to NEVER buy $Teallin again! I've had almost no good luck with their stuff anyways...
Originally Posted by WILLSE
justy got off the phone with stillen. the guy claims that the other dynos dont mean anything bc there was no baseline. he then said well u have some extreme mods to ur car and i replied with ya but i was told with the mods that i have i would gain even MORE hp which i found to be untrue. the guy i just talked to was sayin that he is gonna get the R&D dept to call me and explain it to me or something. that still doesnt do anythnign for me. i want my power or my money. END OF STORY. im gettin rather frustrated since all that i have accomplished at stillen is talking to every damn person at that place. all i do is get put on hold, transfered, or told i will get a call back and never receive one. i will call them in 1 hour if i dont hear anything. i will get more information today one way or another.
will
will
11-18-2003, 11:40 AM
#14
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Detroit Metro Area
Posts: 1,617
Originally Posted by WILLSE
justy got off the phone with stillen. the guy claims that the other dynos dont mean anything bc there was no baseline. he then said well u have some extreme mods to ur car and i replied with ya but i was told with the mods that i have i would gain even MORE hp which i found to be untrue. the guy i just talked to was sayin that he is gonna get the R&D dept to call me and explain it to me or something. that still doesnt do anythnign for me. i want my power or my money. END OF STORY. im gettin rather frustrated since all that i have accomplished at stillen is talking to every damn person at that place. all i do is get put on hold, transfered, or told i will get a call back and never receive one. i will call them in 1 hour if i dont hear anything. i will get more information today one way or another.
will
will
11-18-2003, 12:11 PM
#15
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,279
Originally Posted by Stereodude
I'm not trying to say I told you so, but I did point this out before... No one has a baseline dyno comparing a direct before and after within a reasonable timeframe (day or two max with same weather).
i spoke to justin (quicksilver) and i told him what the stillen guy said. he said he has no problem with us switching the headers on his car. we would get a dyno a day before then swap the headers and dyno after. his car is complely stock except for the GAB mod. if we show gains than stillen was correct. BUT even if he shows gains than that still doesnt answer my querstion of why i lost power. i had more hp without the headers than i do with them. if there is a compatability issue than we still have to get that resolved. im going to call stillen now. ill post in a few.
will
11-18-2003, 02:16 PM
#16
Guest
Posts: n/a
Originally Posted by WILLSE
i spoke to justin (quicksilver) and i told him what the stillen guy said. he said he has no problem with us switching the headers on his car. we would get a dyno a day before then swap the headers and dyno after. his car is complely stock except for the GAB mod. if we show gains than stillen was correct. BUT even if he shows gains than that still doesnt answer my querstion of why i lost power. i had more hp without the headers than i do with them. if there is a compatability issue than we still have to get that resolved. im going to call stillen now. ill post in a few.
will
will
I for one appreciate all the efforts you guys are going thru for this. 
Thanks! 
11-18-2003, 03:01 PM
#17
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,279
Originally Posted by 92 SE-R 02 SE
It just sucks that you guys have to go thru all this BS just to prove that the headers DO NOTHING. And, like you said Will, the tech guy said your car was heavily modded...its really not, if you had headwork, pistons, cams, all that good stuff, but just full exhasut, pulley, Intake is not really "heavily modded". Just another retarted stillen rep making up more BS excuses. Maybe one of you guys could call up HS and see if they can "lend" you a pair of there headers to see if they are better. Could you imagine if the HS headers actually gave the claimed 17 WHP on your max? Stillen would be I for one appreciate all the efforts you guys are going thru for this. Thanks!
I for one appreciate all the efforts you guys are going thru for this. Thanks! will
11-18-2003, 03:22 PM
#18
That only happens during CLOSED-LOOP control and I'm pretty sure you'll get a CEL or pretty bad gas mileage if it does. On the dyno you're at WOT, ie OPEN-LOOP, which only uses MAF to add/subtract fuel. Neither front or rear 02-sensors are used to adjust A/F ratio.
However, I've been discussing something with [maxi-overdose] and I think the "Mixture Ratio Self-learning Control" *MAY* also affect the basic mixture ratio also DURING OPEN-LOOP when you get too far from the theoretical mixture ratio by adjusting the computed "injection pulse duration".
I was about to put all this into a thread, but I've been too busy. I'll see if I can pull it together tonight.
However, I've been discussing something with [maxi-overdose] and I think the "Mixture Ratio Self-learning Control" *MAY* also affect the basic mixture ratio also DURING OPEN-LOOP when you get too far from the theoretical mixture ratio by adjusting the computed "injection pulse duration".
I was about to put all this into a thread, but I've been too busy. I'll see if I can pull it together tonight.
Originally Posted by WILLSE
i was reading in the ESM that the O2 sensors do actually effect air/fuel which is interesting. the ESM clearly states
"The heated oxygen sensor 2, AFTER three way catalyst, monitors the oxygen level in the exhaust gas on each back. Even if switching characteristics of the heated oxygen sensor 1 are shifted, the air fuel ratio is controlled to stoichmetric, by the signal from the heated oxygen sensor 2. This sensor is made of ceramic zirconia. The zirconia generats voltage from approximately 1V in richer conditions to 0V in leaner conditions. Un normal conditions the heated oxygen sensor 2 is not used for engine control." i find that interesting since many people have told me that the rear O2s dont effect performance. i consider adjusting the A/F ratio to the certain reading as a performance related change. now this leads up back to that infamous black box. how can i monitor the signal that the black box is sending?
im still hunting for the problem. i will call stillen in a few minutes.
will
"The heated oxygen sensor 2, AFTER three way catalyst, monitors the oxygen level in the exhaust gas on each back. Even if switching characteristics of the heated oxygen sensor 1 are shifted, the air fuel ratio is controlled to stoichmetric, by the signal from the heated oxygen sensor 2. This sensor is made of ceramic zirconia. The zirconia generats voltage from approximately 1V in richer conditions to 0V in leaner conditions. Un normal conditions the heated oxygen sensor 2 is not used for engine control." i find that interesting since many people have told me that the rear O2s dont effect performance. i consider adjusting the A/F ratio to the certain reading as a performance related change. now this leads up back to that infamous black box. how can i monitor the signal that the black box is sending?
im still hunting for the problem. i will call stillen in a few minutes.
will
11-18-2003, 03:27 PM
#19
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,279
Originally Posted by IceY2K1
That only happens during CLOSED-LOOP control and I'm pretty sure you'll get a CEL or pretty bad gas mileage if it does. On the dyno you're at WOT, ie OPEN-LOOP, which only uses MAF to add/subtract fuel. Neither front or rear 02-sensors are used to adjust A/F ratio.
However, I've been discussing something with [maxi-overdose] and I think the "Mixture Ratio Self-learning Control" *MAY* also affect the basic mixture ratio also DURING OPEN-LOOP when you get too far from the theoretical mixture ratio by adjusting the computed "injection pulse duration".
I was about to put all this into a thread, but I've been too busy. I'll see if I can pull it together tonight.
However, I've been discussing something with [maxi-overdose] and I think the "Mixture Ratio Self-learning Control" *MAY* also affect the basic mixture ratio also DURING OPEN-LOOP when you get too far from the theoretical mixture ratio by adjusting the computed "injection pulse duration".
I was about to put all this into a thread, but I've been too busy. I'll see if I can pull it together tonight.
thanks man. i still dont understand completely. thanks for all ur help man!
will
11-18-2003, 03:36 PM
#20
Donating Maxima.org Member
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Virginia
Posts: 925
The problem is, the baseline they're looking for is on a stock Maxima. In which for that to happen we would have had to take all our parts out in order to do that. I plan on dynoing again here in a few days. Nothing's really changed, but my SES light has stopped coming on. Anyway, I'm going to do the same thing that Glen did and take my stock exhaust with me and see what happens. I'll put the stock exhaust on for one of the dynos and the other 2 I'll use the Stillen exhaust. Anyway, I'll post it one this thread asap.
11-18-2003, 03:54 PM
#21
Guest
Posts: n/a
Originally Posted by 1BADMAX
The problem is, the baseline they're looking for is on a stock Maxima. In which for that to happen we would have had to take all our parts out in order to do that. I plan on dynoing again here in a few days. Nothing's really changed, but my SES light has stopped coming on. Anyway, I'm going to do the same thing that Glen did and take my stock exhaust with me and see what happens. I'll put the stock exhaust on for one of the dynos and the other 2 I'll use the Stillen exhaust. Anyway, I'll post it one this thread asap.
11-18-2003, 04:46 PM
#22
Even if these headers perform as stillen states with a stock exhaust it's still total BS. These headers should have been designed for cars with all the normal modifications. I mean, who the hell would buy headers but not any other mods. Headers are a pretty serious mod in the world of bolt ons.
11-18-2003, 05:48 PM
#23
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,279
Originally Posted by 03BlkSETE
Even if these header perform as stillen states with a stock exhaust it's still total BS. These headers should have been designed for cars with all the normal modifications. I mean, who the hell would buy headers but not any other mods. Headers are a pretty serious mod in the world of bolt ons.
......
11-18-2003, 07:49 PM
#24
Still Here... IM me for more..
iTrader: (10)
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: San Fernando Valley CALI
Posts: 2,129
Originally Posted by 03BlkSETE
Even if these headers perform as stillen states with a stock exhaust it's still total BS. These headers should have been designed for cars with all the normal modifications. I mean, who the hell would buy headers but not any other mods. Headers are a pretty serious mod in the world of bolt ons.
Actually, I think they should have R&D the headers will all of their own products installed, not necessarily every little thing that you could do to a Max.
Well, at least with their own Intake, Exhaust, Flywheel, Underdrive Pulley and maybe the hotted up ignition...
I'd think that the people who buy his headers, would have most of the other crap he sells for the Max already and this would be a good starting point... JM$0.02
11-18-2003, 07:51 PM
#25
Wild at Hurt
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 580
WillSE and Ice,
I was the one who put forth the 02 sensor reading possibly being an issue and it was promptly written off. I can handle that no problem. But what bugs me is that a few of you guys went through a lot of hard work and money, and it hasn't shown results. This is huge defeat, and other than some loss in life, not many things feel worse. It is important in problem solving not to rule anything out until you are absolutely certain.
If it doesn't effect WOT directly, it surely plays a part in choosing the closed loop map.
It could be as simple as it is saying " ok, no signal from the precats, let's run rich for a while until we light those babys up".
I have been involved with performance cars for 40 years. I can't beleive that the stillen headers wouldn't make at least 5HP over the stock cast manifolds and precats. So in my mind, something ELSE is the culprit.
I was the one who put forth the 02 sensor reading possibly being an issue and it was promptly written off. I can handle that no problem. But what bugs me is that a few of you guys went through a lot of hard work and money, and it hasn't shown results. This is huge defeat, and other than some loss in life, not many things feel worse. It is important in problem solving not to rule anything out until you are absolutely certain.
If it doesn't effect WOT directly, it surely plays a part in choosing the closed loop map.
It could be as simple as it is saying " ok, no signal from the precats, let's run rich for a while until we light those babys up".
I have been involved with performance cars for 40 years. I can't beleive that the stillen headers wouldn't make at least 5HP over the stock cast manifolds and precats. So in my mind, something ELSE is the culprit.
11-19-2003, 07:33 AM
#26
Rear 02s will ONLY have an effect during closed-loop operation IF the front 02s are failing, ie abnormal operation.
The missing precat scenario would cause a CEL. Also, studman dyno tuned the A/F ratio and still lost hp/tq over a Y-pipe, so I doubt it's A/F related.
Not sure what it could be at this point, besides a poor flow design, since HotShot apparently nailed it.
The missing precat scenario would cause a CEL. Also, studman dyno tuned the A/F ratio and still lost hp/tq over a Y-pipe, so I doubt it's A/F related.
Not sure what it could be at this point, besides a poor flow design, since HotShot apparently nailed it.
Originally Posted by Mick Max
WillSE and Ice,
I was the one who put forth the 02 sensor reading possibly being an issue and it was promptly written off. I can handle that no problem. But what bugs me is that a few of you guys went through a lot of hard work and money, and it hasn't shown results. This is huge defeat, and other than some loss in life, not many things feel worse. It is important in problem solving not to rule anything out until you are absolutely certain.
If it doesn't effect WOT directly, it surely plays a part in choosing the closed loop map.
It could be as simple as it is saying " ok, no signal from the precats, let's run rich for a while until we light those babys up".
I have been involved with performance cars for 40 years. I can't beleive that the stillen headers wouldn't make at least 5HP over the stock cast manifolds and precats. So in my mind, something ELSE is the culprit.
I was the one who put forth the 02 sensor reading possibly being an issue and it was promptly written off. I can handle that no problem. But what bugs me is that a few of you guys went through a lot of hard work and money, and it hasn't shown results. This is huge defeat, and other than some loss in life, not many things feel worse. It is important in problem solving not to rule anything out until you are absolutely certain.
If it doesn't effect WOT directly, it surely plays a part in choosing the closed loop map.
It could be as simple as it is saying " ok, no signal from the precats, let's run rich for a while until we light those babys up".
I have been involved with performance cars for 40 years. I can't beleive that the stillen headers wouldn't make at least 5HP over the stock cast manifolds and precats. So in my mind, something ELSE is the culprit.
11-19-2003, 08:21 AM
#27
A few more things that *COULD* be the issue(according to TechnoSquares' website):
However, studman did the same using an eManage and still lost hp/tq over a y-pipe.
Maybe?
I don't buy this, since 02s aren't used during WOT. However, I believe they are just messing with the "Self-learning control coefficient", which adjusts to compensate for such things as "injector clogging" and "MAF going out of range" over time to bring the basic mixture ratio CLOSER to the theoretical mixture ratio. The ECU will modify this value over time, but you can reset it to the factory preset value through a Consult-II. Resetting this value to the original seems to be the normal procedure for finding the cause of a too rich/too lean DTC due to a malfunctioning part.
Still not convinced though that this changes anything during OPEN-loop. Seems to correlate with CLOSED-loop operation, which wouldn't help us.
Fuel Map Adjusted
Stock fuel was set to detune the top end horsepower. We discovered that the car runs extremely rich after 5000 rpm. Air to Fuel ratio (A/F) of 10.5 was found right before the stock rev limiter kicks in. Cleary, Nissan was trying to detune the power output at higher rpm to discourage the driver from hitting the rev limiter. For the performance enthusiasts, however, this is unsatisfactory, so we set the A/F to 12.5 all the way to redline to provide adequate power gain while still maintaining a safe margin.
Stock fuel was set to detune the top end horsepower. We discovered that the car runs extremely rich after 5000 rpm. Air to Fuel ratio (A/F) of 10.5 was found right before the stock rev limiter kicks in. Cleary, Nissan was trying to detune the power output at higher rpm to discourage the driver from hitting the rev limiter. For the performance enthusiasts, however, this is unsatisfactory, so we set the A/F to 12.5 all the way to redline to provide adequate power gain while still maintaining a safe margin.
Drive By Wire Adjustment
Throught our testing we found, the drive by wire system was program to never fully open (throttle flap) when you smash the accelerator pedal. In fact, it actually closes the closer you get to the rev limiter, by as much as 20%. This restricts air into the motor and causes HP and Torque numbers to go down. We have remapped this setup so when you go wide open throttle, the throttle flap fully opens and STAYS OPEN, increasing HP and Torque.
Throught our testing we found, the drive by wire system was program to never fully open (throttle flap) when you smash the accelerator pedal. In fact, it actually closes the closer you get to the rev limiter, by as much as 20%. This restricts air into the motor and causes HP and Torque numbers to go down. We have remapped this setup so when you go wide open throttle, the throttle flap fully opens and STAYS OPEN, increasing HP and Torque.
Changed air intake system
One of the major problems on this car was a feedback system that compensates for modifications. The oxygen sensors detects fuel mixture and will tell the ECU to richen up or lean out the mixture. This correction factor was way too wide, so some performance components upgrades (intake, exhaust) would actually result in a loss of HP below stock!
We adjusted the correction factor to reduce that compensation reaction. Our tests showed consistent power and torque improvement following installation of an intake system.
One of the major problems on this car was a feedback system that compensates for modifications. The oxygen sensors detects fuel mixture and will tell the ECU to richen up or lean out the mixture. This correction factor was way too wide, so some performance components upgrades (intake, exhaust) would actually result in a loss of HP below stock!
We adjusted the correction factor to reduce that compensation reaction. Our tests showed consistent power and torque improvement following installation of an intake system.
Still not convinced though that this changes anything during OPEN-loop. Seems to correlate with CLOSED-loop operation, which wouldn't help us.
11-19-2003, 05:22 PM
#28
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,279
UPDATE!!!!!
i talked with cullin today. he tried to call me for the past few days but for some reason when he dialed the number someone else answered.... he said that he doesnt have any answers as of yet. but never received my dynos. so i just sent them again. i sent 5 dynos out of 18 ranging from the very 1st to the very last with the list of the mods i had at the time of the dyno. he was being very helpful and was ready to help me figure this problem out. i asked him if there was any possible way that he could put the stillen intake, high flow cat and stillen rear section on and dyno to prove me wrong and he said that he would try to work that out. i then questioned his 2 1/4" y-pipe not having enough flow for people having full exhaust mods. i asked him if there was any possible way for him to maybe send me the other y-pipe prototypes and i can dyno them to see if maybe a larger diameter is neccesary for an exhaust set up like mine. he said that was a good idea and he will see what he can possibly work out. they are going to try to figure it out on there end but he said that he will analyze my dynos and see what the possible solutions might be. i was very pleased with our conversation.
i also found out the the altima headers actually removes all the cats since the main cat is in part of the y-pipe which could be a reason for the ~20hp gain.
-- yesterday i removed my high flow cat to put on a empty turtle shell..... i found little pine straw looking pieces falling out of the RT cat when i shook it. i looked in and saw that a good number of holes seemed to be clogged. the culprit was my stock precats i believe. the reason i bought the headers was bc my front precat was "breaking away" per nissan. the little "pine straw" pieces i assume are from the stock pre-cats. could this be part of the flex section on the y-pipe? i dont know a better way to describe the small pieces but they are very small chunks of a greyish black looking material. i know what cats look like and the pieces could possibly be the pre-cats but i wanted to make sure that the flex section of the y-pipe wasnt caved in or falling apart. after i put my empty turtle shell on i noticed that my car was actually quieter on the highway (not as much drone). the performance seems to have improved a great bit. any touch of the pedal from 60 in 6th im at 80 before i know it. this might prove that since the altima had the main cat completely removed then that is the reason they gained all that power. i know its far fetched and im looking into it further.
***side note***
the frankencar intake midpipe always made me question one thing..... why are the ends rounded? almost looks like the midpipe was cut with a shear and rounded the edges with the pressure of the cut. im crazy and will almost do anything at this point. so i wanted to smooth out the air flow by cutting the rounded part off the pipe and making the diameter consistant throughout the pipe. i went to a muffler place today since the pipe is incredibly hard to cut. i had the guy cut off the ends of the mid pipe on both sides. it was about a 1/2" on each side.
resutls: call me crazy but i swear i have more power. seems that the flow of air is less turbulent and the car seems to respond better.
can anyone think of a reason that the midpipe should have crimped ends?
im lost in what i was talking about so ill post and shut up.
will
i talked with cullin today. he tried to call me for the past few days but for some reason when he dialed the number someone else answered.... he said that he doesnt have any answers as of yet. but never received my dynos. so i just sent them again. i sent 5 dynos out of 18 ranging from the very 1st to the very last with the list of the mods i had at the time of the dyno. he was being very helpful and was ready to help me figure this problem out. i asked him if there was any possible way that he could put the stillen intake, high flow cat and stillen rear section on and dyno to prove me wrong and he said that he would try to work that out. i then questioned his 2 1/4" y-pipe not having enough flow for people having full exhaust mods. i asked him if there was any possible way for him to maybe send me the other y-pipe prototypes and i can dyno them to see if maybe a larger diameter is neccesary for an exhaust set up like mine. he said that was a good idea and he will see what he can possibly work out. they are going to try to figure it out on there end but he said that he will analyze my dynos and see what the possible solutions might be. i was very pleased with our conversation.
i also found out the the altima headers actually removes all the cats since the main cat is in part of the y-pipe which could be a reason for the ~20hp gain.
-- yesterday i removed my high flow cat to put on a empty turtle shell..... i found little pine straw looking pieces falling out of the RT cat when i shook it. i looked in and saw that a good number of holes seemed to be clogged. the culprit was my stock precats i believe. the reason i bought the headers was bc my front precat was "breaking away" per nissan. the little "pine straw" pieces i assume are from the stock pre-cats. could this be part of the flex section on the y-pipe? i dont know a better way to describe the small pieces but they are very small chunks of a greyish black looking material. i know what cats look like and the pieces could possibly be the pre-cats but i wanted to make sure that the flex section of the y-pipe wasnt caved in or falling apart. after i put my empty turtle shell on i noticed that my car was actually quieter on the highway (not as much drone). the performance seems to have improved a great bit. any touch of the pedal from 60 in 6th im at 80 before i know it. this might prove that since the altima had the main cat completely removed then that is the reason they gained all that power. i know its far fetched and im looking into it further.
***side note***
the frankencar intake midpipe always made me question one thing..... why are the ends rounded? almost looks like the midpipe was cut with a shear and rounded the edges with the pressure of the cut. im crazy and will almost do anything at this point. so i wanted to smooth out the air flow by cutting the rounded part off the pipe and making the diameter consistant throughout the pipe. i went to a muffler place today since the pipe is incredibly hard to cut. i had the guy cut off the ends of the mid pipe on both sides. it was about a 1/2" on each side.
resutls: call me crazy but i swear i have more power. seems that the flow of air is less turbulent and the car seems to respond better.
can anyone think of a reason that the midpipe should have crimped ends?
im lost in what i was talking about so ill post and shut up.
will
11-19-2003, 05:34 PM
#30
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,279
Originally Posted by 03BlkSETE
The altima headers come with or without a cat. Both have similiar performance gains.
will
11-19-2003, 06:30 PM
#31
Wild at Hurt
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 580
WillSE
Per Ice's well written explaination, with the wide compensation factor that was ineffect with your other mods you have been running rich for some time. Rich is good when cold and to lite the cats, but it is very bad for those converters to run rich (as they heat up to much) once you are at normal operating temp. So a clogged cat could be it or a good part of it.
The Technosquare exerpts are very enlightening, thanks Ice!
I am going to spend some money their way, and it sounds like what they are doing would cover any mod.
Are they still advising to do your other mods first? I have only been waiting because i want to ad headers. It sounds like TS should be the mod to DO FIRST.
Per Ice's well written explaination, with the wide compensation factor that was ineffect with your other mods you have been running rich for some time. Rich is good when cold and to lite the cats, but it is very bad for those converters to run rich (as they heat up to much) once you are at normal operating temp. So a clogged cat could be it or a good part of it.
The Technosquare exerpts are very enlightening, thanks Ice!
I am going to spend some money their way, and it sounds like what they are doing would cover any mod.
Are they still advising to do your other mods first? I have only been waiting because i want to ad headers. It sounds like TS should be the mod to DO FIRST.
11-19-2003, 07:48 PM
#32
Originally Posted by 1BADMAX
The problem is, the baseline they're looking for is on a stock Maxima. In which for that to happen we would have had to take all our parts out in order to do that. I plan on dynoing again here in a few days. Nothing's really changed, but my SES light has stopped coming on. Anyway, I'm going to do the same thing that Glen did and take my stock exhaust with me and see what happens. I'll put the stock exhaust on for one of the dynos and the other 2 I'll use the Stillen exhaust. Anyway, I'll post it one this thread asap.
That's why we're going to eventually do the swap to my car...which is bone stock performance wise (and **** retentively maintained)...
If I don't get any power, then Stillen is absolutely full of ****...
If I do get the power, then Stillen is still full of **** b/c they knew that others would have more mods to their exhaust system (one of the first areas to be modded by we import guys/gals)...and they didn't test them for that.
11-22-2003, 08:02 AM
#34
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 523
QS you guys have been talking about it for a while now. Do you have a definite timeframe yet or are you still trying to get things in order first? I dont mean to sound pushy but I am very anxious to see the results.
11-22-2003, 03:52 PM
#35
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,279
Originally Posted by bgates1654
QS you guys have been talking about it for a while now. Do you have a definite timeframe yet or are you still trying to get things in order first? I dont mean to sound pushy but I am very anxious to see the results.
will
11-22-2003, 03:53 PM
#36
Originally Posted by bgates1654
QS you guys have been talking about it for a while now. Do you have a definite timeframe yet or are you still trying to get things in order first? I dont mean to sound pushy but I am very anxious to see the results.
11-24-2003, 05:52 PM
#37
i keep calling stillen asking for the high officail their and i finnaly get ahold of him and sent him my dyno results for the header problem. Ever since then they havnt contacted me. My solution is contacting the better business bureau like i told him on his voice mail. I will be getting a lawyer if i need to so if you guys need help contact me so we can file together. Those f*cks will pay for their bad service and a^^ed out pipes of shi%
11-25-2003, 03:08 PM
#38
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,279
LATEST WORD FROM STILLEN!
this email is from cullen the guy who designed these SH!TTY headers.
Will
Here is a list of issues I have found with your Maxima situation.
1. 1 year, 5 months between pre and post Header dyno. This is too long of
time for a "fair" comparison of before and after numbers.
2. Conflicting stories about removal of a aftermarket Y-pipe during header
installation. "After installing Stillen's headers(and removing the
aftermarket Y pipe for obvious reasons)..."
3. Large breaks in dyno graphs indicate signal interference in the pickup
loop. This is an intermittent problem from vehicle to vehicle. To remedy
this, the dyno pickup should be clamped onto one of the coil leads.
4. Dyno graph after installation of 2.5" B-pipe show loss of HP. This pipe
should show significant gains.
5. 30 HP and 50 Ft/lbs. TQ loss between 4400 and 4850 rpm on dyno graphs
after header install indicate problem with vehicle.
6. Additional drop in HP and TQ after ECU reflash and MAS replacement
indicates additional problem with vehicle.
7. Per phone conversation, pieces of pre-cat found in high-flow cat after
header install indicates degradation of pre-cats and clogging of high-flow
before header install.
8. Comments about performance being greatly improved after removal of
high-flow cat and replaced with empty shell indicates clog.
In short, on the day of the dyno for the headers, the MAS was cracked and
High-flow cat was partially clogged with pieces of pre-cat.
A dyno before header installation would have shown poor performance.
For your information, these are some of the items we monitor with a Nissan
Consult-II during our testing.
MAS readings in gm/s
MAS readings in Volts.
Timing readings
Short term and Long term fuel trim.(Alpha #s)
O2 sensor readings in mV.
ECU coolant temp. readings.
Inlet Air Temp.
Injector Pulse in msec.
Wide band Air/Fuel ratio.
Check for Pending or Current codes before and after testing.
This monitoring, as well as baselining the vehicle before every part
installation, ensures reliability and repeatability during testing.
Thank you for your patience during this process.
Cullen
Design Engineer
R&D Manager
Steve Millen Sportparts
3176 Airway
Costa Mesa, CA 92626
Ph: (714)540-5566
i talked with him today and kinda lost my cool. he said this was his FINAL ANSWER TO THE MATTER. im calling my lawyers friends since i work at a number of courthouses and have contact with lawyers who might be interested in a case. im very dissapointed with this outcome.
****STILLEN YOUR HEADERS ARE WORTHLESS PIECES OF **********
will
this email is from cullen the guy who designed these SH!TTY headers.
Will
Here is a list of issues I have found with your Maxima situation.
1. 1 year, 5 months between pre and post Header dyno. This is too long of
time for a "fair" comparison of before and after numbers.
2. Conflicting stories about removal of a aftermarket Y-pipe during header
installation. "After installing Stillen's headers(and removing the
aftermarket Y pipe for obvious reasons)..."
3. Large breaks in dyno graphs indicate signal interference in the pickup
loop. This is an intermittent problem from vehicle to vehicle. To remedy
this, the dyno pickup should be clamped onto one of the coil leads.
4. Dyno graph after installation of 2.5" B-pipe show loss of HP. This pipe
should show significant gains.
5. 30 HP and 50 Ft/lbs. TQ loss between 4400 and 4850 rpm on dyno graphs
after header install indicate problem with vehicle.
6. Additional drop in HP and TQ after ECU reflash and MAS replacement
indicates additional problem with vehicle.
7. Per phone conversation, pieces of pre-cat found in high-flow cat after
header install indicates degradation of pre-cats and clogging of high-flow
before header install.
8. Comments about performance being greatly improved after removal of
high-flow cat and replaced with empty shell indicates clog.
In short, on the day of the dyno for the headers, the MAS was cracked and
High-flow cat was partially clogged with pieces of pre-cat.
A dyno before header installation would have shown poor performance.
For your information, these are some of the items we monitor with a Nissan
Consult-II during our testing.
MAS readings in gm/s
MAS readings in Volts.
Timing readings
Short term and Long term fuel trim.(Alpha #s)
O2 sensor readings in mV.
ECU coolant temp. readings.
Inlet Air Temp.
Injector Pulse in msec.
Wide band Air/Fuel ratio.
Check for Pending or Current codes before and after testing.
This monitoring, as well as baselining the vehicle before every part
installation, ensures reliability and repeatability during testing.
Thank you for your patience during this process.
Cullen
Design Engineer
R&D Manager
Steve Millen Sportparts
3176 Airway
Costa Mesa, CA 92626
Ph: (714)540-5566
i talked with him today and kinda lost my cool. he said this was his FINAL ANSWER TO THE MATTER. im calling my lawyers friends since i work at a number of courthouses and have contact with lawyers who might be interested in a case. im very dissapointed with this outcome.
****STILLEN YOUR HEADERS ARE WORTHLESS PIECES OF **********
will
11-25-2003, 03:25 PM
#39
You gave them WAY too much info/ammunition.
The ONLY way to validate your claims is to get a BEFORE AND AFTER dyno on a 100% stock vehicle from a reputable shop. I would have Cullen list EXACTLY what he wants for a valid test, then follow it to a T-ee with NUMEROUS witnesses. Otherwise, they're going to use everything and anything as an escape goat.
My .02 is that if they were SERIOUS they would have ante'd up PROOF of their gains with ACTUAL dynos, which to this day I have NOT seen. MY PERSONAL OPINION, since they have NOT is that they've never even really dyno'd them. Too bad for you few Max owners who took one for the team, but even WORSE for Stillen if they don't handle this.
The ONLY way to validate your claims is to get a BEFORE AND AFTER dyno on a 100% stock vehicle from a reputable shop. I would have Cullen list EXACTLY what he wants for a valid test, then follow it to a T-ee with NUMEROUS witnesses. Otherwise, they're going to use everything and anything as an escape goat.
My .02 is that if they were SERIOUS they would have ante'd up PROOF of their gains with ACTUAL dynos, which to this day I have NOT seen. MY PERSONAL OPINION, since they have NOT is that they've never even really dyno'd them. Too bad for you few Max owners who took one for the team, but even WORSE for Stillen if they don't handle this.
11-25-2003, 03:36 PM
#40
Originally Posted by IceY2K1
You gave them WAY too much info/ammunition.
The ONLY way to validate your claims is to get a BEFORE AND AFTER dyno on a 100% stock vehicle from a reputable shop. I would have Cullen list EXACTLY what he wants for a valid test, then follow it to a T-ee with NUMEROUS witnesses. Otherwise, they're going to use everything and anything as an escape goat.
My .02 is that if they were SERIOUS they would have ante'd up PROOF of their gains with ACTUAL dynos, which to this day I have NOT seen. MY PERSONAL OPINION, since they have NOT is that they've never even really dyno'd them. Too bad for you few Max owners who took one for the team, but even WORSE for Stillen if they don't handle this.
The ONLY way to validate your claims is to get a BEFORE AND AFTER dyno on a 100% stock vehicle from a reputable shop. I would have Cullen list EXACTLY what he wants for a valid test, then follow it to a T-ee with NUMEROUS witnesses. Otherwise, they're going to use everything and anything as an escape goat.
My .02 is that if they were SERIOUS they would have ante'd up PROOF of their gains with ACTUAL dynos, which to this day I have NOT seen. MY PERSONAL OPINION, since they have NOT is that they've never even really dyno'd them. Too bad for you few Max owners who took one for the team, but even WORSE for Stillen if they don't handle this.
I agree with giving them too much info, but even Cullen armed with that info shouldn't make an assumption like that without actually being present during the dyno tests.
Icy, Will and I are going to do the swap to my car ASAP. My car is in flawless working order, so they can't complain about that aspect. I'm going to do a stock dyno, find a date to do the swap as quickly as possible with Adam (maximaman777) and Will (WILLSE), and then go to the dyno with the headers on my car. It's the only way they will believe us. We'll take numerous photos and video of the ENTIRE process, including comments and tech analysis from the place we get it dynoed. If they make power, then Will's car is AFU...if I lose power, then I'm going to burn Stillen to the ground via an attorney. Looks like I'm in for some serious car work the next couple of weeks...