600CC, Fuel pressure, MAF voltage, Timing
11-01-2011, 06:56 AM
#1
600CC, Fuel pressure, MAF voltage, Timing
I know it has been covered, but not to great detail (from what I have seen i could be wrong)
But what would be ideal conditions for our engines to start right up?
My situation:
600CC, EU
37psi fuel pressure at start
2.20V going into ECU MAF
No IACV
Now that I am writing this, I thought of trying to log while cranking and see what comes up for duty cycle and timing.
So, what should timing be while cranking? what duty cycle (on stock 3.0 injectors) should it be, what fuel pressure, and most importantly, what MAF voltage should it have going into the ECU. I have never had a good start up, ever since I did 00VI on the 3.0 many years ago. Any suggestions will be greatly appreciated.
Forgot to mention, I also have two scavenge pumps running at startup with ignition, each pulls about 4-5AMP's. Perhaps this is taking away from the speed and torque in which the starter turns the engine? My batter is only 700CCA Gold Diehard (which actually dies really easily after alot of starting attempts)(alternator is new also).
But what would be ideal conditions for our engines to start right up?
My situation:
600CC, EU
37psi fuel pressure at start
2.20V going into ECU MAF
No IACV
Now that I am writing this, I thought of trying to log while cranking and see what comes up for duty cycle and timing.
So, what should timing be while cranking? what duty cycle (on stock 3.0 injectors) should it be, what fuel pressure, and most importantly, what MAF voltage should it have going into the ECU. I have never had a good start up, ever since I did 00VI on the 3.0 many years ago. Any suggestions will be greatly appreciated.
Forgot to mention, I also have two scavenge pumps running at startup with ignition, each pulls about 4-5AMP's. Perhaps this is taking away from the speed and torque in which the starter turns the engine? My batter is only 700CCA Gold Diehard (which actually dies really easily after alot of starting attempts)(alternator is new also).
Last edited by streetzlegend; 11-01-2011 at 06:58 AM.
11-01-2011, 04:36 PM
#3
now I'm no pro, but have you adjusted the injector lag time with the bigger injectors?
Adjusting the Injector Lag time is the only way Im able start my car on a daily basis with 555's.
I think right now I have set at -.7 start and -1.1 end or something like that I have it pretty good. Larger Injectors need to be lagged for sure but depending on your setup, just mess around with it.
-matt
I think right now I have set at -.7 start and -1.1 end or something like that I have it pretty good. Larger Injectors need to be lagged for sure but depending on your setup, just mess around with it.
-matt
11-01-2011, 05:20 PM
#4
Those are the exact values I have on mine .7 - 1.1. other than that, I have never messed with those numbers. Considering mine are slightly larger, I dont know if i should increase or decrease them numbers..?
11-01-2011, 05:38 PM
#5
I got the car started, I set the maf voltage down to 2.20, i had it at 2.25. It is still not turn key but it starts like it used too, on the 2nd try. Neoloc, i thought I was too lean and richend it up by going with 2.25v, but I guess it didnt like that. Ill stick to 2.2
The injector lag stuff is interesting though. iv never dealt with that.
The injector lag stuff is interesting though. iv never dealt with that.
11-01-2011, 07:35 PM
#7
Man Streetz. I have the exact same setup as you. My car fires up like a mother****ing dream.
I have:
DW 600cc Injectors
00VI with IACV
AFPR @ 36psi
OK here is what I hate about the EU. Its a very picky son of a *****.... The only thing I have adjusted in my car is the hotwire adjustment tab. I set it to -24 (across the board, less near WOT). This yields me a 14.5 A/F (jumping around randomly to high 13's) at cruise and idle and 11.5 at WOT.
I have spent so many hours and hours trying to get the EMU to act nicely with the ECU. The ECU is damn smart and it will adapt. If I changed the duty cycle the car would run well but occasionally hiccup at WOT (on the drag strip). If I set it up for Duration the car would flood left right and center, A/F would never ever be consistent. Altering the MAF signal was what worked for me the best. People might say don't do that and what not but I have spent many hours on this (like 1 1/2 years fooling around with the EMU). I have played with every imaginable setting possible. Changing the injectors size etc is BS. It just does a global change which you then have to compensate in your map.
Anywho, just want to say I have been there done that. Try starting with a fresh map. Change only the hotwire for your fuel tune. You can get any A/F ratios doing this just as well or better then the fuel adjustment (I have found). See how well the car starts after this. Put -24 across the board and fire up the car. See if it starts better.
It doesn't hurt to try
(btw my car fires up like a champ in -2°c).
I have:
DW 600cc Injectors
00VI with IACV
AFPR @ 36psi
OK here is what I hate about the EU. Its a very picky son of a *****.... The only thing I have adjusted in my car is the hotwire adjustment tab. I set it to -24 (across the board, less near WOT). This yields me a 14.5 A/F (jumping around randomly to high 13's) at cruise and idle and 11.5 at WOT.
I have spent so many hours and hours trying to get the EMU to act nicely with the ECU. The ECU is damn smart and it will adapt. If I changed the duty cycle the car would run well but occasionally hiccup at WOT (on the drag strip). If I set it up for Duration the car would flood left right and center, A/F would never ever be consistent. Altering the MAF signal was what worked for me the best. People might say don't do that and what not but I have spent many hours on this (like 1 1/2 years fooling around with the EMU). I have played with every imaginable setting possible. Changing the injectors size etc is BS. It just does a global change which you then have to compensate in your map.
Anywho, just want to say I have been there done that. Try starting with a fresh map. Change only the hotwire for your fuel tune. You can get any A/F ratios doing this just as well or better then the fuel adjustment (I have found). See how well the car starts after this. Put -24 across the board and fire up the car. See if it starts better.
It doesn't hurt to try
(btw my car fires up like a champ in -2°c).
11-01-2011, 08:08 PM
#8
Just so we are clear. It doesn't matter which approach you take IE duty cycle, duration, or hotwire. All 3 will change the pulse width of the injector.
The main difference is by using hotwire you let the ECU make the decision on what pulse to send to the injectors by telling it this is how much air the motor is getting. Rather then you adjusting the pulse to x amount then waiting on the ECU to tell you what it want's to change the pulse too, adding them up and away it goes to the injector.
Just saying my reasoning behind my hotwire tune. Also note that the car ran nicely when I unplugged the EMU and ran straight of the ECU without a tune (slightly on the rich side thought (no tune)). When the EMU was plugged in it didn't feel right, until I tuned via hotwire.
So to me:
Duty Cycle = 95% good, 5% Fail (only at the dragstrip)
Duration = 100% Fail
Hotwire Tune = 1000% Pass
Maybe my EMU is slow or something...
The main difference is by using hotwire you let the ECU make the decision on what pulse to send to the injectors by telling it this is how much air the motor is getting. Rather then you adjusting the pulse to x amount then waiting on the ECU to tell you what it want's to change the pulse too, adding them up and away it goes to the injector.
Just saying my reasoning behind my hotwire tune. Also note that the car ran nicely when I unplugged the EMU and ran straight of the ECU without a tune (slightly on the rich side thought (no tune)). When the EMU was plugged in it didn't feel right, until I tuned via hotwire.
So to me:
Duty Cycle = 95% good, 5% Fail (only at the dragstrip)
Duration = 100% Fail
Hotwire Tune = 1000% Pass
Maybe my EMU is slow or something...
11-01-2011, 09:00 PM
#9
Just so we are clear. It doesn't matter which approach you take IE duty cycle, duration, or hotwire. All 3 will change the pulse width of the injector.
The main difference is by using hotwire you let the ECU make the decision on what pulse to send to the injectors by telling it this is how much air the motor is getting. Rather then you adjusting the pulse to x amount then waiting on the ECU to tell you what it want's to change the pulse too, adding them up and away it goes to the injector.
Just saying my reasoning behind my hotwire tune. Also note that the car ran nicely when I unplugged the EMU and ran straight of the ECU without a tune (slightly on the rich side thought (no tune)). When the EMU was plugged in it didn't feel right, until I tuned via hotwire.
So to me:
Duty Cycle = 95% good, 5% Fail (only at the dragstrip)
Duration = 100% Fail
Hotwire Tune = 1000% Pass
Maybe my EMU is slow or something...
The main difference is by using hotwire you let the ECU make the decision on what pulse to send to the injectors by telling it this is how much air the motor is getting. Rather then you adjusting the pulse to x amount then waiting on the ECU to tell you what it want's to change the pulse too, adding them up and away it goes to the injector.
Just saying my reasoning behind my hotwire tune. Also note that the car ran nicely when I unplugged the EMU and ran straight of the ECU without a tune (slightly on the rich side thought (no tune)). When the EMU was plugged in it didn't feel right, until I tuned via hotwire.
So to me:
Duty Cycle = 95% good, 5% Fail (only at the dragstrip)
Duration = 100% Fail
Hotwire Tune = 1000% Pass
Maybe my EMU is slow or something...
What i recently tried but am not completely happy with is running two seperate maps that slightly overlap. I/J Adjustment map 1 and 2, kind of like the VAFC works. that way i have twice the adjustment abilities. The first map goes from 600-4200 rpm and the second one from 4000-7300. I autotuned to get a rough tune and then leave the last column in the first and the first column in the second map at 0. I did this because I want a good tune at partial throttle. WOT tuning is all good and dandy, but in all reality i'm only wot maybe 2% of the time i'm driving and want a good tune for spirited driving around town etc.
The advantage of dutycycle over duration is that dutycycle is a percentage rather than a fixed amount, thus making it far easier to tune. I think what screws us up too is that the EMU is interpolating between four cells instead of just sticking to the one it is in.
Once I get my setup complete i'm planning on taking it to AEM (the ones that tuned the fastest GTR) and have it professionally done.
11-01-2011, 09:13 PM
#10
So I guess you're not using the extended rev limiter?
What i recently tried but am not completely happy with is running two seperate maps that slightly overlap. I/J Adjustment map 1 and 2, kind of like the VAFC works. that way i have twice the adjustment abilities. The first map goes from 600-4200 rpm and the second one from 4000-7300. I autotuned to get a rough tune and then leave the last column in the first and the first column in the second map at 0. I did this because I want a good tune at partial throttle. WOT tuning is all good and dandy, but in all reality i'm only wot maybe 2% of the time i'm driving and want a good tune for spirited driving around town etc.
The advantage of dutycycle over duration is that dutycycle is a percentage rather than a fixed amount, thus making it far easier to tune. I think what screws us up too is that the EMU is interpolating between four cells instead of just sticking to the one it is in.
Once I get my setup complete i'm planning on taking it to AEM (the ones that tuned the fastest GTR) and have it professionally done.
What i recently tried but am not completely happy with is running two seperate maps that slightly overlap. I/J Adjustment map 1 and 2, kind of like the VAFC works. that way i have twice the adjustment abilities. The first map goes from 600-4200 rpm and the second one from 4000-7300. I autotuned to get a rough tune and then leave the last column in the first and the first column in the second map at 0. I did this because I want a good tune at partial throttle. WOT tuning is all good and dandy, but in all reality i'm only wot maybe 2% of the time i'm driving and want a good tune for spirited driving around town etc.
The advantage of dutycycle over duration is that dutycycle is a percentage rather than a fixed amount, thus making it far easier to tune. I think what screws us up too is that the EMU is interpolating between four cells instead of just sticking to the one it is in.
Once I get my setup complete i'm planning on taking it to AEM (the ones that tuned the fastest GTR) and have it professionally done.
You stated the advantage of duty cycle. Now imagine all the calculations the EMU has to do to reproduce the duty cycle signal that was intercepted from the ECU + modify it. That takes time. Now use hotwire, your just adjusting the MAF signal. The ECU will do its own calculations and the EMU will let the signal go right through (as no modifications where done). I'm thinking this is why my tune feels better now as opposed to when I tuned via duty cycle. The EMU is lacking in speed. IMO
Last edited by OC_Nooby; 11-01-2011 at 09:15 PM.
11-01-2011, 09:22 PM
#11
Well you better get that new impeller buddy! So you can rev the heck outta it. What revision of the EMU do you have? maybe they got faster as they got redone. I have revision G(?) i believe
11-01-2011, 09:26 PM
#12
I think I have D or E, honestly can't remember. Id love to get the impeller but i'm saving up for a 1987 Mini Cooper Classic (roughly 9k). Got 4k saved so far and its winter time so come summer time, I'll be rocking a mini cooper (very excited )
Streets, try my suggestion. See if your car starts up better.
)Streets, try my suggestion. See if your car starts up better.
11-02-2011, 08:14 AM
#14
Damn I think streets is MAFless if I remember correctly. Not sure about the pressure sensor but I don't see why not. He has a predefined MAF map, so I don't see why the hotwire tune wouldn't work.
11-02-2011, 03:10 PM
#15
OC Nooby, thats interesting. I too have been messing with the EU since for ever lol. Yeah I am mafless, and have a premade maf output map. I spent days and days and days trying to perfect that stupid map lol. All i care about in life right now is for my damn start up. i am tired of having to crank and crank to get it started.
My WOT tune is perfect, flat curve.
So, in the things you said, i notice you put you have an IACV? perhaps this is the primary reason you have great start up?
My WOT tune is perfect, flat curve.
So, in the things you said, i notice you put you have an IACV? perhaps this is the primary reason you have great start up?
11-02-2011, 04:44 PM
#16
IACV in and idles at 1k. I tried lower but it would jump up and down to often. Do you have upgraded grounds? I have added 2 grounds from the transmission right to the body. That helped some.
Do you have a patch harness for your Emanage Ultimate?
Try to start the car without the EMU and see if it helps.
Also if you can, try to put your z32 MAF back in and tune via Hotwire. Shouldn't take you longer then 30 minutes to see if it helps. I compared all 3 methods, this method (hotwire tune) was the greatest of them all. Worst case scenario, nothing changed and you can swap back right away.
Do you have a patch harness for your Emanage Ultimate?
Try to start the car without the EMU and see if it helps.
Also if you can, try to put your z32 MAF back in and tune via Hotwire. Shouldn't take you longer then 30 minutes to see if it helps. I compared all 3 methods, this method (hotwire tune) was the greatest of them all. Worst case scenario, nothing changed and you can swap back right away.
Last edited by OC_Nooby; 11-02-2011 at 04:51 PM.
11-02-2011, 08:32 PM
#17
IACV in and idles at 1k. I tried lower but it would jump up and down to often. Do you have upgraded grounds? I have added 2 grounds from the transmission right to the body. That helped some.
Do you have a patch harness for your Emanage Ultimate?
Try to start the car without the EMU and see if it helps.
Also if you can, try to put your z32 MAF back in and tune via Hotwire. Shouldn't take you longer then 30 minutes to see if it helps. I compared all 3 methods, this method (hotwire tune) was the greatest of them all. Worst case scenario, nothing changed and you can swap back right away.
Do you have a patch harness for your Emanage Ultimate?
Try to start the car without the EMU and see if it helps.
Also if you can, try to put your z32 MAF back in and tune via Hotwire. Shouldn't take you longer then 30 minutes to see if it helps. I compared all 3 methods, this method (hotwire tune) was the greatest of them all. Worst case scenario, nothing changed and you can swap back right away.
You know what would awesome!!!? if you could log in your EU during start up and idle. I am interested to see what your maf voltage (going to ECU) looks like, as well as timing, duty cycle in and out, duration in and out. So when ever you have some free time, if you dont mind. that would be very helpful man.
11-03-2011, 08:09 AM
#18
I got no way of putting the maf back on, i made a single pipe from trany area all the way to the TB. i dont dont have a patch harness, i got everything soldered one by one, so removing the EU is not too practical lol.
You know what would awesome!!!? if you could log in your EU during start up and idle. I am interested to see what your maf voltage (going to ECU) looks like, as well as timing, duty cycle in and out, duration in and out. So when ever you have some free time, if you dont mind. that would be very helpful man.
You know what would awesome!!!? if you could log in your EU during start up and idle. I am interested to see what your maf voltage (going to ECU) looks like, as well as timing, duty cycle in and out, duration in and out. So when ever you have some free time, if you dont mind. that would be very helpful man.
11-03-2011, 01:04 PM
#19
Sure I could do that. The only issue I have is my A/F at start up is on the rich side. When I was taking out an o2 it stripped itself so I had to weld in another bung pretty much on top of the old bung (quick job). In any case it reads rich at start. Let me know if you still want me to.
11-07-2011, 06:32 AM
#21
Question for you all. Since I have a hard time starting usually, and after a few attempts the battery starts to weaken making it even harder to start. Would it be a good idea to get a higher CC rated battery. I currently have a Diehard Gold, 700cca.
I was thinking of an Optima Red Top, 800-900CC.
Note that I have two scavange pumps on at the time of cranking as well as all the electronics, J&S, Emanage, Suprastick. the pumps pull about 4-5AMP each.
What do you guys think, should I upgrade?
I was thinking of an Optima Red Top, 800-900CC.
Note that I have two scavange pumps on at the time of cranking as well as all the electronics, J&S, Emanage, Suprastick. the pumps pull about 4-5AMP each.
What do you guys think, should I upgrade?
11-30-2011, 02:44 PM
#27
I think I am hanging up the gloves and calling a quits. Might start a part out thread soon.
The car AGAIN left me without being able to go to work, just because it was SLIGHTLY cooler than normal. Then it flooded after attempting alot of times, then battery started to die (BRAND NEW OPTIMA 1000CA), 8 hours later now at 5 I jumped it with another car, turned key to IGN on, and backfired like a 9mm (louder actually, prob from fuel sitting ontop of the piston), even with jumping the car, it still died and didnt start after a few attempts.
The car AGAIN left me without being able to go to work, just because it was SLIGHTLY cooler than normal. Then it flooded after attempting alot of times, then battery started to die (BRAND NEW OPTIMA 1000CA), 8 hours later now at 5 I jumped it with another car, turned key to IGN on, and backfired like a 9mm (louder actually, prob from fuel sitting ontop of the piston), even with jumping the car, it still died and didnt start after a few attempts.
11-30-2011, 09:03 PM
#30
I just got home from picking up my 1st new car! Got me a 2011 corolla.
I gave it alot of thinking, and after all the blood, sweat, tears, and money I have spent with the maxima, I just simply cannot let her go like that.
So my plan is, gut the hell out of the car, boost it to hell, spray it. I will be aiming for Jime's times but this is future plans. For now I just gotta get it started. (probably when weather warms up)
11-30-2011, 09:23 PM
#31
I like your thinking lol.
I just got home from picking up my 1st new car! Got me a 2011 corolla.
I gave it alot of thinking, and after all the blood, sweat, tears, and money I have spent with the maxima, I just simply cannot let her go like that.
So my plan is, gut the hell out of the car, boost it to hell, spray it. I will be aiming for Jime's times but this is future plans. For now I just gotta get it started. (probably when weather warms up)
I just got home from picking up my 1st new car! Got me a 2011 corolla.
I gave it alot of thinking, and after all the blood, sweat, tears, and money I have spent with the maxima, I just simply cannot let her go like that.
So my plan is, gut the hell out of the car, boost it to hell, spray it. I will be aiming for Jime's times but this is future plans. For now I just gotta get it started. (probably when weather warms up)
12-01-2011, 09:53 PM
#34
OC_Nooby,
So i made an observation. got your logs to open.
Right before we get any RPM reading as we crank.
My output duty cycle is 1.4%, and output duration is 3.5ms
Your output duty cycle is 14%(with spike to 98%), and duration is 26.2ms!!
The bottom line is that, what matters is the output result, no matter how it was achieved (be by maf tuning, injector adjustment, etc..). Since you have the same injectors, it looks like I need to dump a whole lot more fuel at start up!
So i made an observation. got your logs to open.
Right before we get any RPM reading as we crank.
My output duty cycle is 1.4%, and output duration is 3.5ms
Your output duty cycle is 14%(with spike to 98%), and duration is 26.2ms!!
The bottom line is that, what matters is the output result, no matter how it was achieved (be by maf tuning, injector adjustment, etc..). Since you have the same injectors, it looks like I need to dump a whole lot more fuel at start up!
12-04-2011, 08:54 AM
#36
What I think happens is that when I first attempt to crank, there is not enough fuel to ignite, then i try cranking again and still the mist is not enough, but now theres more fuel sitting in there, so it starts flooding.
12-04-2011, 05:09 PM
#38
What I did was set my starting MAF votlage (going to ECU) to the same you had at startup, which was about 1.40v.
Then I increased the duty cycle to try n match what your's was.
I have not attempted this yet though.
Yeah i have an AFPR, its set to pretty much stock FP. Whats your FP set at?
Then I increased the duty cycle to try n match what your's was.
I have not attempted this yet though.
Yeah i have an AFPR, its set to pretty much stock FP. Whats your FP set at?
12-04-2011, 08:18 PM
#39
What I did was set my starting MAF votlage (going to ECU) to the same you had at startup, which was about 1.40v.
Then I increased the duty cycle to try n match what your's was.
I have not attempted this yet though.
Yeah i have an AFPR, its set to pretty much stock FP. Whats your FP set at?
Then I increased the duty cycle to try n match what your's was.
I have not attempted this yet though.
Yeah i have an AFPR, its set to pretty much stock FP. Whats your FP set at?
12-12-2011, 07:48 PM
#40
Man...... So i studied your logs. I edited my existing map only at the start up cell's. I changed my maf output voltage to what yours show, I also bumped up the INJ duty cycle to 15%.
I came home from work, n said F it, lets try. Went to the car which I have not started for two weeks (remember the battery was also low when i last attempted). I loaded the map, cranked it, it turned very slowly almost with no juice and suddenly BAMMMM, started like a champ!!! lol. I am going to do it again tomorrow n see if it starts the same. This means for the last 4+ years, i have not been giving it enough fuel at start up! i always took away fuel lol.
It turns out, there is a big spike that goes to 100% duty cycle (coming from the ECU), which is what makes it start (your log also has this spike). Thanks alot man!!!
I came home from work, n said F it, lets try. Went to the car which I have not started for two weeks (remember the battery was also low when i last attempted). I loaded the map, cranked it, it turned very slowly almost with no juice and suddenly BAMMMM, started like a champ!!! lol. I am going to do it again tomorrow n see if it starts the same. This means for the last 4+ years, i have not been giving it enough fuel at start up! i always took away fuel lol.
It turns out, there is a big spike that goes to 100% duty cycle (coming from the ECU), which is what makes it start (your log also has this spike). Thanks alot man!!!
