jordandalley

Hi guys, I have a heap of questions I hope you can answer.

Currently I'm only tuning with the Emanage Blue and the MAF signal. I have the injector harness on its way via post, and I already have the ignition harness. They aren't connected as of yet. I plan to connect the injector harness in a bid to control the fuel a bit more.

I am running the stock 370cc injectors with a Vortech 8:1 FMU which runs a bit rich and the AFR varies from 8.5 - 12 AFR. Quite rich and all over the place and I bet its sucking a lot of power.

I've got an issue with my tune whereby -20 to +20 MAP modifications make pretty much no difference (minimal at best). I've seen the WB02 move as little as 0.5 AFR using the EB with corrections as high as 20.

I assume (for whatever reason I don't know) that the emanage blue can only adjust up to +20?? Can someone confirm this? Or can I put +50 in there and keep modifying it to suit?

I am also unsure that if I select +20 that this adds more fuel? Or do the positive numbers mean less fuel? Probably a stupid question, but I had to ask...

I have heard by reading numerous posts, that the A32 MAF maxes out when under boost. I am boosting 10 psi. Is it time to swap this out for the Z32 MAF? Maybe the reason the MAP adjustments make no difference is because the MAF is maxed out? At what boost does the A32 MAF max out?

Also, if I am adjusting fuel with the injector harness, how do I do this? Does anyone have any example tunes?

Maybe I should just roll it into a shop with a pro tuner.....

I did however find this... http://forums.maxima.org/supercharge...oed-10psi.html

Tune is for a SAFC. Seems pretty perfect really... he's running 10 psi with stock injectors, supercharged with the 8:1 FMU and MEVI - all which I run. Question is, if I put these values into the EB, will it be the same as the SAFC corrections?

maxgtr2000

iTrader: (29)

The fmu is what is throwing it all off. It bumps the fuel pressure mechanically in boost so it will run rich with 370s at higher boost. You should be able to run good no fmu with the emanage corrections. The thing is with the blue when you make air flow corrections it alters the timing since it modifies the maf signal, just like the safc. Subtracting fuel adds timing, adding fuel slightly retards. The setting on the safc/vafc +20/-20 are not the same as emanage. You can do values +/- 100%. Adding is adding subtracting subtracting. I wouldn't spend much time on it until you get the injector harness installed. When you adjust fuel with the injector harness only positive values work. Maf should max out around 300whp/350chp. You should get the map sensor for the blue to do your ignition timing, it will be easier to figure out. Also check out diytuning.com, there is an emanage blue forum there.

Gemner

iTrader: (4)

in addition, you cannot remove fuel with the EMB injector harness. You can using the MAF pulldown, but the EMB just taps the injector wire and changes it by adding voltage onto the end of the ECU pulsewidth. What you can do is take out the FMU and use the EMB to add pulsewidth. That would be your best bet (IMO)

streetzlegend

iTrader: (8)

Are you sure about that? I have always though the Blue controlled the injectors exactly like the Ultimate. I had the blue for a couple of years but only used MAF to tune. But i am 90% positive you can control the injectors just like you do with EU

maxgtr2000

iTrader: (29)

No, you can only add pulsewidth with the injector harness.
On the blue the inj harness is spliced in, on the ultimate they are intercepts. One reason the ultimate is better than the blue you can subtract from the injectors without messing with airflow voltages/timing.

jordandalley

Thanks for the comments guys...

Well anyway, I finally have something that gives me 11.5 AFR across almost the entire rev range. It bounces between 11.2 and 11.8.

I didn't end up installing the injector harness.. I just used the support tool to lean her right out.

This is what I got... (sharing is caring and all that...)



Mods: 8:1 FMU, MEVI @ 5,300rpm, 10.5 psi, Large FMIC, Headers, Cat Converter with all the crap mashed out of it, stock B pipe, Cannon style muffler

maxgtr2000: You mentioned that when making air flow corrections it modifies the timing. Is this how the ECU changes the fuel? My question though is this. You mention subtracting fuel adds timing? Note the map above is all subtracting, so does this mean it will be advancing the timing? This is a good thing right? Sorry.. complete tuning n00b here.....

streetzlegend

iTrader: (8)

-30 is alot of corrections, and yes it is increasing your timing (when you take away, it indirectly goes up, i had 10degree's advanced just by removing alot when i was n/a and high fuel pressure). It is a bad thing when your boosted, maybe less harmful on a SC but still not a good thing. Becareful when tuning, I used to tune just the a/f without really knowing much about timing, ended up having to replace the headgaskets. Like mentioned, you should remove your FMU, that way you dont have to make so much corrections. The least correction on your tables the better.

I dont know what your power goal is but with 370cc (z32) injectors I was at 312whp through the auto, I then increased boost to 16psi, no dyno but probably mid 300's and inj's were starting to get close to maxing, since your tuning via MAF I dont think the ECU will provide the inj's with 100% duty cycle, i believe the max the ECU will put out is 80% no matter how much your correction after its maxed out, so thats a good thing. Get rid of the FMU, useless.

jordandalley

If I get rid of the FMU though, I won't have enough fuel will I? Remembering I run stock injectors. Won't I just end up making major adjustments in maf signal in the other direction... upwards? Can the emanage do this? This will then retard the timing right?

I can test getting rid of the FMU by removing the vac hose off the top as this just allows all fuel to go to the return. Is this correct?

jordandalley

Ok, so I went out for a bit to tune the car FMU'less and I had no success... it hits about 4k rpm and starts getting around 13.5 AFR and climbing. Too lean no matter how many numbers I throw at it (I got up to +50)

I pulled the 8:1 FMU disc out of it and put the 6:1 FMU disc in. The 8:1 FMU is far too rich, but the 6:1 FMU is too lean. It almost seems that I can't add fuel but I can subtract.

My airflow meter output it peaking out at 4.66 volts. I think 5 volts is the maximum the A32 MAF will do?? Am I right? so I may be peaking it out. With +50 corrections, i'm only increasing that 4.66 volts up to 5.19 volts. That doesnt seem to be enough to push the 5 - 6k rpm band up from ~13.8 to something more richer using the 6:1 disc.

What a mega pain in the ****. I may just have to bite the bullet and install the 555cc deatschwerx injectors... The only issue is they are second hand (out of a previously supercharged maxima) and have been sitting around unused for about three years. What are the chances that they just bolt in and work? How can I test them over the weekend?

Gemner

iTrader: (4)

i dont know what kind of hp numbers max out the a32 MAF, but maybe you are maxing it out? as streetz said, the ECU will only give the injectors a certain amount of pulsewidth, so theyre maxed out before they are actually running at their max, if that makes sense.

to test the injectors, you COULD plug them into the rail and crank the car, then make sure they are all spraying a good clean pattern. However, after sitting for 3 years I would suggest sending them out to be cleaned. IIRC, there is some fluid you can soak them in before installing them that should theoretically help but I cant think of what it is

jordandalley

thanks Gemner.

I dug up the old injectors. They still smell of fuel from three years ago and seem to be in reasonably good nic.

I ran a multimeter over them and they all measure 0.02 ohms.

I also ran a small 12v battery over the terminals and all make a very resonate and identical click like something is opening.

I've thrown them into a tub of seafoam. Apparently they use it in injector cleaning machines. While I don't have one of these, I guess I don't see the hurt in letting them soak in it over night.

Could it hurt my car if I fired it up with a dead injector?

jordandalley

I managed to make something up in the garage. I found a piece of tube which fits over the end of the injector air-tight and the other end over a syringe. I filled the syringe with carby cleaner and pushed the plunger down to make positive pressure. I then attached a small 12v battery to the injector. All 6 fired up and sprayed successfully. Might be a little project in the weekend perhaps installing my new 555cc injectors? I'm pretty confident that my test proved they worked.

streetzlegend

iTrader: (8)

I thought you said you were running 370cc injectors? or are you running maxima 4th gen stock injectors?

If your using 370cc injectors you shoudlnt be leaning it out, did you hook up the stock fuel pressure regulator? You can put an adjustable fuel pressure regulator and increase the fuel pressure. Also remember to always hook up a vacum line to the regulator.

jordandalley

Sorry.. i thought 370cc injectors were stock. I have whatever the A32 came with. I'll be putting the 555cc injectors in today.

streetzlegend

iTrader: (8)

No, 370cc is what comes stock on a 300xz tt. In that case then yea it makes sense that you were maxing them out.

jordandalley

Well, good news. After a few hours of pulling my car apart, I now have 555cc deatchwerks injectors installed. Getting the old stock ones out what a pain in the ****, but with perseverence, I managed to pry them out. I have disconnected the FMU and am please to announce that the AFR ranges from 10.8 - 11.8 through 3 - 6k without any tuning (all 0's on the map). Looks like it shouldn't take much to tweak it right.

Things i've noticed actually is a smoother idle. The factory injectors I took out were pretty rusted up and crappy looking. The other thing I noticed is it seems to backfire a little (not much) when I'm coasting along without accelerating. AFR goes way up to 29 when i'm off the throttle and stays there.. is this ok? It seems different. Idle is otherwise stoich and sits between 14.6 and 14.9.

I notice the emanage software has a setting in it for upgraded injectors. Do I need to change this? Are the stock injectors 270cc?

See below...



Thanks for all your help thus far

Gemner

iTrader: (4)

the correction factor for the injectors is going to depend on what pressure the 555's are rated at. IIRC 4th gen injectors are rated at 3Bar, but most injectors are rated at 3.5Bar. So I would check to see what the conversion is for 3 to 3.5 Bar and then insert those numbers into the emanage injector settings. As far as the off throttle lean out, thats 100% normal.

jordandalley

Thanks Gemner

I wonder if anyone has done this before and can chime in? I'd be keen to see some maps tuned for 555cc

streetzlegend

iTrader: (8)

Dont touch the correction factor, leave that alone. If your AFR is currently in 10.8 - 11.8 like you say, dont change anything in the settings. Just make some small adjustment on your table, start by taking out -5 and see what a/f that gives you, then go from there. I have 600cc DW and Z32 maf, I would show you my table but I prefer you tune your own rather than use someone elses. Having your current a/f's is awesome, you just need small adjustment.

Gemner

iTrader: (4)

yeah, so long as your idle is fine you dont need the injector correction. usually people use the correction if they have driveability issues from the big injectors

jordandalley

I had to use the correction factors. Currently I have set the stock injectors to 290cc and put 555cc in the injector-size after box. The car was idling at 13 AFR and blowing smoke without the correction.

Idle is fine and bounces around 14.5 - 14.8. Under WOT it's fine (just needs some fine tuning) and sits around 10.6 - 11.5.

I am having an issue though and it has to do with the AFR at 50% throttle. It seems to ping a little and hang around 14.3 - 15.8 AFR through 3 - 4k rpm. It's not giving enough juice around mid throttle.

Streetzlegend: I wouldnt mind looking at your map - not to use, but to look at as a point of reference. That's if you're willing to share. I have a 300ZX MAF handy as well, I could install this, but want to get my head around these injectors first. Are you using a correction factor, or are you just doing all A/F adjustments?

Once again, many thanks for your help guys. I am the only guy in the southern hemisphere with a supercharged maxima - so your input and experience is much appreciated!

maxgtr2000

iTrader: (29)

I thought if you had 550cc and larger the parameters was supposed to be 370 to 550. Since you are not that far off you should be okay just adding airflow map adjustment to bring your afr lower in the 3-4k range. Pinging is not a good sign so fix that asap. At anytime it starts pinging back off the accelaration before it goes boom.

streetzlegend

iTrader: (8)

I have my 500cc injectors set at very low fuel pressure, in the high 20's at idle with vacuum applied. I have my correction factor untouched set at 0, so all my tune is via MAF map. Did you add fuel in the rpm's where it pings and gets lean? Thats not really a problem, it just requires tuning. i'll try and get my map to show you, but again, not going to help you at all.

Also note that once you put on the z32 maf, its going to change your tune, you can mess with the correction factor a little bit to richen it back up (it will get leaner with z32 maf). As for the correction factor, when I did use it long ago i didnt pay much attention to putting the actual injector sizes, i just put 100, and 50 for example, just to get a ratio.

streetzlegend

iTrader: (8)

Also, heres a few tips for better tuning.

on your MAF map, notice you have upto 8500 rpm to tune, what you wanna do is click on Change Scale, then distribute the rpm's better, so that you can use those last columns, for example get your total rpm (not sure what your reving too), say 6500 and put that at the last column, then evenly distribute the rest of the rpm's. you will have alot more tuning cells and be more efficient.

As for tuning, it looks like your doing it based on throttle, in my turbo case this is not good because boost varies depending on load, at lower throttle I could have boost if im in a higher gear vs. another gear. So its alway best to tune using MAF Voltage. Since your SC it might not be as much of a concern since your boost is based on RPM not load, for now you can keep it at throttle.

When tuning, have someone next to you, you can press the keys Ctrl + M, this will light up the cell that is currently active, so as your driving or someone else is driving and you looking at the table you can know what cell needs a change on the spot. The other way is logging it, then looking at the log, you can move the log screen to a side and click on a spot where you want to see, this also highlights what Cell on your table was being used. Easier to tune.

jordandalley

streetz - you're a legend. No pun intended....

Thanks for the map.. it still gives me a general idea of where i'm heading. I'll pull the correction factors out and give it a go using A/F adjustments today. I think the corrections are messing around with the mid throttle a bit. I guess I can have better control over this without using the correction factors.

I didn't know you could use Ctrl+M. Thanks for the tip, it will make my life easier.

I probably don't have a need for the Z32 MAF yet - I assume. I highly doubt i'm pushing 350 fwhp - though this will be nice. I must be somewhere into the high 200's by now though.

One other thing I have noticed.. and its yet again probably just a tuning thing. If I turn the car off for about 30 seconds and start it again, it splutters for a bit and then brings itself back to 14.7 AFR. It's like the emanage doesnt start working for a little while after the key turns. However, if I start the car after its been off for say about 15 minutes, it starts no problems at all.

Gemner

iTrader: (4)

actually, the emanage DOESNT start for a bit after you turn the key on. There is a little bit of powerup time and its longer than the stock ECU takes. I dont know why it makes a difference how long the car has been off though

streetzlegend

iTrader: (8)

lol thanx i guess.

If I were you, i would put in the z32 maf already, your going to spend time and energy tuning the car with the stock maf, and eventually get a smaller pulley or find out ur stock maf is maxed out, then put it in the z32 and have to re-tune all over again. I suggest put it in now that your starting to tune.

jordandalley

I'm already running the 2.62" pulley. I'm pretty sure I can't go smaller than that as the plate wont allow it and i'm already probably over spinning the blower. It's through an intercooler setup though, so only producing 10.5 psi at the manifold - this is probably the most it'll ever see. Is it still worth doing it?

I have a wiring diagram for it somewhere. I take it this is where you do the MAF change thing in the emanage setup?

streetzlegend

iTrader: (8)

No you dont have to touch the emanage when you change the maf, all it will do is change the voltage, so you have to return, might get away with just making small adjustment on the Correction Factor.

jordandalley

Sounds good. My MAF is in a ****ty spot way down by the radiator fan. I'm sure there will be some cursing involved, but i'll drop it in tonight

jordandalley

attempted to install the Z32 MAF but discovered that the thing is buggered. I'll need to get a new one. I double, triple, and quadrupal checked the wiring too... all is good but MAF was reporting back 1.2 volts and not moving. It has been sitting around for a long time.. maybe it gave up??

So it was back in with the A32 MAF which I think is doing OK for the time being.

I played with the parameter settings.. I think I've found a good correction factor of 0.541 (300cc - 555cc). It runs the car a little rich at the top end but through the mid throttle i'm pretty happy about seeing that pinging issue disappear. I figured I'd use a correction factor as a good driving base, and tune from there. Corrections to 80 - 100% throttle position are maxing out at -15 correction around 4,500rpm, which I feel is pretty modest. I will post the map up soon.

You mentioned previously though, that too much leaning back of A/F can cause the ecu to advance the timing which is bad for boosted apps. When I put a correction factor in, I assume that this is leaning it right back, thus advancing timing?

Because I have bigger injectors now, is this OK? Or is it still a concern?

I note that streetzlegend has his leaned quite far back in places as well... and he is turbo???

streetzlegend

iTrader: (8)

Correct, turbo..

You mention your 80-100% throttle, but what about your part throttle? thats the most important part of the tune, tuning the 100% throttle is the easy part. This is why it does not really matter what you do with the parameters, you still need to tune the part throttle.

Yeah you are still advancing timing in the correction factor, all thats doing is lowering or increasing the voltage going back to the ECU, which is the same thing you do on your table, it just does it as a whole, you get it? Its like a multiplier. If you put on bigger injectors, your going to need less adjustment now, which means less timing advance. Its not like your advancing ALOT, its not that much of a big deal unless your taking away alot on the table.

Remember, the most time consuming part is tuning the part throttle, so focus on that, thats where the motor can see some pinging since there is a whole lot of timing adavnced already. At what RPM does boost come in on those SC things?

jordandalley

Yeah, as I mentioned, I used the parameters to get a better average cruising tune and adjusted the WOT after that. Yes, WOT is easy to tune. You're right.. cruising is difficult. I have a mate turning up tomorrow night. He'll be my co-pilot. We'll hit some deserted roads and see how we go.

I am a little confused as to what AFR i'm supposed to be achieving at cruising. Since my throttle is very much relevant to my boost (being supercharged), i'm wondering what AFR is ideal for say part-throttle (50%) and maybe 2 psi boost around 3k rpm or so. I don't know whether or not I should be half way between 14.7 and 11.5 or what... what do you suggest?

In answer to your question about boost.. 2k rpm sees about 2 psi, 3k sees about 4-5 psi, 4k sees about 6-7 psi, 5k sees about 8psi, and 6k sees 10 psi. 2.62" pulley through a FMIC... i'd get more boost if I didnt have an FMIC but I live in the tropics, so I thought it would be essential

streetzlegend

iTrader: (8)

Ouch!!, 2k rpm and 2psi. dont have much experience with SC but any boost at 14.5a/f might not be a good idea, hopefully other SC guys can share their input on this. But if i get into any boost, i drop a/f to at MOST 12s, thats why your/were pinging, too lean while in boost, unless your koosho and like having your a/f super lean(17a/f) lol (watch him post now lol).

jordandalley

17 AFR!! How long has he been doing that for? LOL

Those boost levels are only a guess.. i think 2k rpm may see a little more, i'm not sure. I'll grab some official numbers later Still.. in hindsight, I would now have chosen turbo because you can have more boost lower. But up here when it's commonly over 100 degrees at 50% humidty I figured a supercharger would be a safer bet

Mid throttle now sees boost up to 3 psi and AFR of 13. Might be still a little lean, but for SC may be fine... need some SC guys to chime in

streetzlegend

iTrader: (8)

Yeah, turbo is the way to go! but SC is cute too lol

maxgtr2000

iTrader: (29)

It is hard to tune partial throttle since the ecu tries to keep the car at 14.7 afr in closed loop. In open loop you can put whatever. In my opinion you need the injector harness, it will make it a whole lot easier.

jordandalley

This thing is giving me the ****s. Sorry for the language but we went out last night, and as you said maxgtr2000 - the ecu keeps changing mid throttle to 14.7!! The damn thing doesn't know where it wants to be. It bounces around all over the place.

I have the injector harness plugged into the emanage ready to go, but its not installed. I might do that tonight then.

Question is, how do you tune using the injector harness? Is it the same as the AF adjustments or different?

What is the difference between closed and open loop? can you force the ECU into open loop? Is this what the injector harness does? See.. told u I know a n00b.

I have found that I can tune WOT ok, but have come accross a really annoying issue where during a gear change the car pings. I'll have AFR of 11.5 - through 6k rpm in 2nd, it goes up to third gear at 4.5k and pings at 12 AFR. WTF? I set the map to +20 at 6,000 rpm to avoid this and it still does it. Remembering this is an auto, I'm still on the gas through gear changes.

Your help is much appreciated. This has been probably the most frustrating out of all of it.

jordandalley

I've installed the injector harness..... now what..... ??? :P

streetzlegend

iTrader: (8)

How much boost you getting right now? also is the car intercooled?
How are you monitoring pinging, you are listening to it from driver seat or using some kind of device?

Get the a/f down into the high 10's towards high rpms, it should stop pinging
Also did you hook up the ignition harness, take away some timing, the higher the rpm the more timing there is, stock timing goes to 24degree's towards redline sometimes even 25degree's. this is ALOT for boost, even SC.