Emanage Ultimate assistance - larger injectors and MAF

[mtrai760]

I installed a EU yesterday in my 98 Maxima, and I have a couple of issues/questions.

Issue #1: Nevermind, figured this question out myself Is anyone running a Z32 MAF with the EU? I tried selecting VG30DETT for my MAF, but it will not accept it in the menu screen, it just goes back to blank (stock). Anyone have a similiar issue? <--- Uses the same MAF setting for the VQ30DET as the VG30DETT, that is why you cannot select the different MAF, it is not different for EU programming purposes.

Issue #2: I'm having a problem with injector lag time with my Z32 injectors. After doing a LOT of research, I came across 2 answers for lag time on Z32 370cc injectors, .58ms, and from calling Deatsch Werks, 1.4ms. I tried both, and the issue I am having is running way to rich at idle. At .58ms, I am running at 11-12 AFR. At 1.4ms, I run at 10-11 AFR. I tried playing around with the lag time, but I want to set it correctly, not guess.

I am running 370cc Z32 injectors cleaned and balanced by Deatsch Werks. They tested between 411cc-418cc at 43.5psi. I am running stock fuel pressure (34psi). Anyone have any suggestions? I would think that the stock ECU would compensate, but the AFR is staying really rich. I do not have any adjustments programmed into the EU that should be affecting idle (or anything below 50% throttle for that matter). Do you have to set your stock injector size and lag time in the boxes for that info? I set the stock size in (260cc) but it made no difference.

Other than that, car starts and runs fine, albeit really rich. I am currently running version 2.20 on the software. We have to use the VQ30DET setting, does anyone know if this is actually using VQ30DET specs, ie a different MAF and injectors than the A32 Maxima?

Thanks for any help, I'm eager to get out and start doing some tuning runs!

[MOHFpro90]

Not sure if this is of any help, but if I recall correctly, don't you have the option of tapping or intercepting the MAF signal? Which did you do? I haven't used or seen the software/interface so I am not sure how it correlates with the option but maybe that has something to do with it?

Not sure on tha A/F issue. But just from reading what you wrote, I would say it would have to be higher to make it leaner. But I really have no idea.

Good luck man!

[mtrai760]

You do have the option of tapping or intercepting, I intercepted the signal since I am running a Z32 MAF.

I would like to get the injector program set correctly for the larger injectors, I'd hate to guess and be wrong.

[maximase86]

Matt, you might give Zach a call. He had a similar problems. Can't remember off the top of my head what he did to fix it. Worth a shot.

S

[mtrai760]

Maf issue is figured out. The EU uses the same MAF settings for the VQ30DET as the VG30DETT, therefore you cannot select the VG's MAF.

[liqidvenom]

so when you select the vq30det as the engine it goes on the assumption you already have the z32 maf?

[mtrai760]

Originally Posted by liqidvenom

so when you select the vq30det as the engine it goes on the assumption you already have the z32 maf?

Either that, or the setting is just exactly the same between the two MAF's.

In the EU menu, under Vehicle Selection
Selecting VQ30DET under engine automatically enters
Airflow meter type: Hotwire
Airflow meter spec: NS_HW2
for the MAF.

If you select VG30DETT, it enters the same MAF settings.
Airflow meter type: Hotwire
Airflow meter spec: NS_HW2

[liqidvenom]

ahh...

I hope this isnt cluttering up your thread.... but


I have two questions that I have after reading the dandy-max write up last night.

1) In the newer software does the vehicle speed limiter and the rev limiter work using the settings in the EU or would you have to go about getting the rev limiter to work the way that dandy explained.

2) What would be the issue with having the eu do auto tune full time with a wb02 hooked up? I couldnt find a setting that allowed some sort of safety net if the wb02 failed though. i would think having it being a live tune would be a good thing to have.

[mtrai760]

Originally Posted by liqidvenom

ahh...

I hope this isnt cluttering up your thread.... but


I have two questions that I have after reading the dandy-max write up last night.

1) In the newer software does the vehicle speed limiter and the rev limiter work using the settings in the EU or would you have to go about getting the rev limiter to work the way that dandy explained.

2) What would be the issue with having the eu do auto tune full time with a wb02 hooked up? I couldnt find a setting that allowed some sort of safety net if the wb02 failed though. i would think having it being a live tune would be a good thing to have.

1) Speed limiter cut setting always worked I believe. I'm pretty sure (95%)you still have to raise the rev limiter per Dandy's method, though I have not tested this yet. I have found similiar things in other applications of the EU and the rev limiter cannot be raised by any other method.

2) The Auto tune feature is only used to get you 'close' to a decent tune. If you left it on all the time, it would always be changing the tune on you, and your right, it has no failsafe, which could be a very bad thing if your WB02 failed. The autotune by itself is not going to get you the best power out of your setup.

[DandyMax]

Originally Posted by mtrai760

1) Speed limiter cut setting always worked I believe. I'm pretty sure (95%)you still have to raise the rev limiter per Dandy's method, though I have not tested this yet. I have found similiar things in other applications of the EU and the rev limiter cannot be raised by any other method.

2) The Auto tune feature is only used to get you 'close' to a decent tune. If you left it on all the time, it would always be changing the tune on you, and your right, it has no failsafe, which could be a very bad thing if your WB02 failed. The autotune by itself is not going to get you the best power out of your setup.

Correct on both counts.

I see you figured out the MAF, and yes it's because they are the same setting in the software (HW-2).

As for your idle richness, it's a little odd because at stock fuel pressure the 370's shouldn't be so big that the ECU can't compensate once it's in closed loop. You should be able to run with only a minimal or no lag adjustment. Are you sure it's going into closed loop? Have you checked other parameters such as the water temp readings, do they come up to normal at warm idle? The ECU will need to see a normal water temp before it goes into closed loop (ie not what it thinks is a cold state).

Also, this is something I probably should have put in the writeup but there's a lot of confusion about the injector boxes. The reality is that for 99.99% of all setups there is NO need to put before/after sizes in the injector boxes. The reason for this is that doing so does not automatically activate a global scaling factor. IMO Greddy dropped the ball on this. It would have been easy to just apply a global scale factor but no, instead that factor will only apply to non-zero cells in the fuel maps. And given that you can add or subtract up to 20 ms of pulse width directly in the maps it makes that factor redundant and confusing. SO, the summary is that if you have larger injectors, you simply have to program the fuel maps to pull fuel and disregard the sizing boxes. The lag setting is a different issue and may help for significant upsizings but in the case of your 370's it shouldn't need a huge adjustment, 1.4 ms seems like a lot for that size injectors, and I still think the ECU should be able to adjust reasonably for that size. What happens if you leave the lag at zero? And until you know that your ECU is definitely in closed loop at warm idle I would look at that first.

[mtrai760]

Thanks for the reply. The car runs just fine with the EU removed, on the 370cc injectors, so I do find it odd that it does not run exactly the same with the EU connected. Everything is fine other than the rich idle with the EU connected.

I did try making no adjustments at all to the injector size, and it still seems to run rich, 13 or so on the AFR. I did check to make sure it was in closed loop before I started worrying about it, but then again, it idles find in open loop when warming up right around 14.7-15.0, so again, a little confused at the change when the EU is hooked up.

I do have the coolant senser tapped on the ECU. I am running the coolant temp and IAT's to the EU right now, no knock sensor.

That is good information to know about the lack of scaling by the EU with larger injectors. I did find it interested also that the EU does not automatically enter the 'before' injector size for the VQ30DET. I checked the VG30 and it enters 370 automatically. Not sure what affect this has, just something to be aware of I guess.

I read online that a few people (non-maxima) were having minor issues with the newest update to the EU software, so I may try going back one revision to see if that makes a difference.

I am also considering trying to tune out the rich condition at idle myself. Since the stock ECU will negate any changes to the closed loop map over time to maintain a 14.7 AFR, it should really make a difference long term. I am just concerned about having to adjust things that really shouldn't need to be adjusted. I like to go by 'Do it once, do it right'. If I was NA, I wouldn't be quite so worried, but I have less of a margin for error running 10psi of boost.

I won't have time to mess with it again until tomorrow, I'll post back with results, hopefully this can help someone else in the future.

[DandyMax]

And you've verified that your coolant temps are reading properly with the EU and that you don't need to switch JP13 around? Also, not to be a jerk but how do you know you're in closed loop?

I have also heard bad things about the newer versions, I would likely use v 2.00 and nothing newer, most of the newer updates have more to do with the V-manage and fixes for other cars anyway.

If you can't get the warm idle to 14.7 on it's own, then pull fuel on the I/J map or the airflow map and it will bring the ECU back into the range of its adjustability, such that it can maintain 14.7 on it's own starting from the new base point you've essentially created. You shouldn't have to worry about higher load/rpm site tuning (ie WOT/full boost) in that neither the EU nor the stock the ECU should change anything on you once it's tuned/programmed (open loop operation).

[mtrai760]

Originally Posted by DandyMax

And you've verified that your coolant temps are reading properly with the EU and that you don't need to switch JP13 around? Also, not to be a jerk but how do you know you're in closed loop?

I have also heard bad things about the newer versions, I would likely use v 2.00 and nothing newer, most of the newer updates have more to do with the V-manage and fixes for other cars anyway.

If you can't get the warm idle to 14.7 on it's own, then pull fuel on the I/J map or the airflow map and it will bring the ECU back into the range of its adjustability, such that it can maintain 14.7 on it's own starting from the new base point you've essentially created. You shouldn't have to worry about higher load/rpm site tuning (ie WOT/full boost) in that neither the EU nor the stock the ECU should change anything on you once it's tuned/programmed (open loop operation).

No problem, I verified that I was in closed loop with my scan tool, and double checked the temps against what the emanage was displaying to make sure everything was okay. It was kinda cool out and my hood was open, I never saw my water temp get over about 185-190, and my fan never came on, so I do not know if I am going to have to change my jumper setting yet, but I was keeping a close eye on it just in case. I didn't try driving the car due to it running so rich, I wanted to get the injector issue figured out first.

I am a little confused as to why the car runs fine with the EU unhooked, but rich with it connected. I have not had time to mess with it any further, I am going to try again tonight, after I change the version over to 2.00. I'll document everything I do and the results afterwards. I am going to try driving it with the injector settings stock, and see if the ECU can tune out the excess fuel. If not, then I'll try tuning it out in the injector map like you recommended.

Thanks for your help, that writeup you did is one of the greatest contributions ever to the Maxima community.

[mtrai760]

Okay, still having some issues...

First off, I went back to version 2.13 on the emanage (verified on system and laptop). I took out the injector size adjustment, though I played around with this some more and the car just idled like crap, so no adjustment on that for the listing below.

Car began overheating, so I had to set jumper 13 to open, problem solved.

Still running too rich at idle, and while cruising. AFR goes between 10.5 - 13.0 at idle, and between 12.5 - 15.0 while cruising under a light load. Not good.

I am having trouble getting settings in the I/J adjustment map or the airflow adjustment map to do anything. I have all my front panel jumpers on, with the I/J adjustment map 1, Airflow adjustment Map, and AFR adjustment map all selected.

First off, using the AFR adjustment map set to adjust for relative pressure, I set the AFR to 14.7 at everything below 0 psi of pressure, up to 3500 RPM. I then started the car up and waiting for a few minutes. Temperature was at 90 degrees C, and my AFR target was set to start after 60 degree C. Still no adjustment to the I/J map. I then tried driving the car at a slow, steady pace, and again, no adjustments made by the EU.

I datalogged the run and no adjustments were ever made. WTF? I checked, double checked, and triple checked everything, and still no adjustment.

Next I tried manually making adjustments to the I/J map, and still no affect on my AFR.

So, what am I doing wrong?

I am assuming I should be seeing the EU make some sort of adjustment to the I/J map, which is how I have the EU setup.

[mtrai760]

I thought I had it figured out for about a minute, but no. Okay, I cannot get the auto tune to change the maps at all, that is my current issue. I finally got my idle tune leaned out some, but it's still not changing my maps using the autotune feature. I thought it was the throttle percentage I had set, but I tried reducing it to 0 and it made no difference.

[mastercater7]

Originally Posted by DandyMax

Correct on both counts.

I see you figured out the MAF, and yes it's because they are the same setting in the software (HW-2).

As for your idle richness, it's a little odd because at stock fuel pressure the 370's shouldn't be so big that the ECU can't compensate once it's in closed loop. You should be able to run with only a minimal or no lag adjustment. Are you sure it's going into closed loop? Have you checked other parameters such as the water temp readings, do they come up to normal at warm idle? The ECU will need to see a normal water temp before it goes into closed loop (ie not what it thinks is a cold state).

Also, this is something I probably should have put in the writeup but there's a lot of confusion about the injector boxes. The reality is that for 99.99% of all setups there is NO need to put before/after sizes in the injector boxes. The reason for this is that doing so does not automatically activate a global scaling factor. IMO Greddy dropped the ball on this. It would have been easy to just apply a global scale factor but no, instead that factor will only apply to non-zero cells in the fuel maps. And given that you can add or subtract up to 20 ms of pulse width directly in the maps it makes that factor redundant and confusing. SO, the summary is that if you have larger injectors, you simply have to program the fuel maps to pull fuel and disregard the sizing boxes. The lag setting is a different issue and may help for significant upsizings but in the case of your 370's it shouldn't need a huge adjustment, 1.4 ms seems like a lot for that size injectors, and I still think the ECU should be able to adjust reasonably for that size. What happens if you leave the lag at zero? And until you know that your ECU is definitely in closed loop at warm idle I would look at that first.

Dan, I am going to have to disagree with you about injector settings. I was having major problems with my fuel settings. Just like Matt, my car ran real rich once the EMU was installed. You must change the injector before and after size to correct these problems. Also, I was so rich that I had to pull ridiculous amounts of fuel to raise the damn a/f ratio to even get decent gas mileage. Also, the a/f ratio would fluctuate a lot on me (definitely not good for FI). Once I changed the I/J before and after, minimal fuel had to be pulled, and the a/f stayed correct.

[mtrai760]

Drove with it still installed to work this morning and boosted twice to 4-5psi. No changes at all on the map from the autotune.

[DandyMax]

Originally Posted by mtrai760

I thought I had it figured out for about a minute, but no. Okay, I cannot get the auto tune to change the maps at all, that is my current issue. I finally got my idle tune leaned out some, but it's still not changing my maps using the autotune feature. I thought it was the throttle percentage I had set, but I tried reducing it to 0 and it made no difference.

Are you using duration settings for fuel? There's a bug in the EU (I found out after I did the writeup) whereby the AutoTune will not work with durations but will work with duty cycle. This creates a problem however, in that the rev limit extension has to be done with duration, meaning it's probably best to skip the auto tune and manually tune using durations, since using DC to auto tune and then flipping units doesn't seem to be calculated correctly by the EU. (Unless of course you don't care about the rev limit then just use DC).

Sorry I wasn't sure but is this your only issue now at this point? You are able to make adjustments manually on the I/J maps, it's just the auto tune?

Originally Posted by mastercater7

Dan, I am going to have to disagree with you about injector settings. I was having major problems with my fuel settings. Just like Matt, my car ran real rich once the EMU was installed. You must change the injector before and after size to correct these problems. Also, I was so rich that I had to pull ridiculous amounts of fuel to raise the damn a/f ratio to even get decent gas mileage. Also, the a/f ratio would fluctuate a lot on me (definitely not good for FI). Once I changed the I/J before and after, minimal fuel had to be pulled, and the a/f stayed correct.

Which version of the software/firmware are you using? I have not tested the newest versions but as of v 2.00 I am confident what I stated above applies based on testing/datalogging I have done in the past. The before/after boxes are applied but only create an effect on non-zero cells in the map. When I tried to input before/after sizes only without making adjustments on the fuel map, it did absolutely nothing, because it's a multiplier (ie something times zero is always zero). I suspect the reason you had to pull minimal fuel (ie input smaller numbers into the fuel map cells) after putting in the before/after boxes is because of the multiplication with the scale factor. So as an exaggerated example you could have either left the before/after boxes alone and pulled 5 ms directly on the I/J map or entered before/after sizes as 290/550 and pulled 2.64 ms in the map, same end result (550/290*2.64=5).

[mtrai760]

Originally Posted by DandyMax

Are you using duration settings for fuel? There's a bug in the EU whereby the AutoTune will not work with durations but will work with duty cycle. This creates a problem however, in that the rev limit extension has to be done with duration, meaning it's probably best to skip the auto tune and manually tune using durations, since using DC to auto tune and then flipping units doesn't seem to be calculated correctly by the EU.

Sorry I wasn't sure but is this your only issue now at this point? You are able to make adjustments manually on the I/J maps?

I am using duration and not duty cycle, guess that is the issue with the autotune, makes sense now. I was ready to tear my hair out over that one . I am still having issues with running too rich going into idle. I am still a little miffed as to why my idle is perfect with no EU, yet it requires adjustment with the