Kevin Wong

I just stopped by and made an appointment (as well as a friend) at XS Engineering, now here in Huntington Beach, CA (moved from Fullerton). It was a bit intimidating going and walking around the facilities of XS seeing how I was the only car under 300HP. I saw every generation of Skylines, Silvias, and RX-7's. They also had the 480 HP WRX, MR-S, Supra, and Z. It turns out they are contracted by Motorex (the big Nissan importers and tuners) and they are the largest distributors of Apex'i (which incidently makes them the most expensive resellers). So The head engineer there, Eric, was the chief engineer at Apex'i and really has his hands deep in the field. He's been tuning for over 14 years and apparently has quite the reputation. He was telling me though that they are not a company that is price friendly He said they do the best work and do nothing but the best service. Customer service is the best there and he refuses to cater to the high school Honda / rice-rockets / hagglers / punks. He said he likes to stay true to the industry (which is why they work on those Japanese Supercars) and likes to keep his prices high.

I saw the dyno that my Max will be running on and he talked me through my other options. We talked about ECU's and he recommended the JWT. We talked about the UPRD (Geforce) chip and he had a smile on his face. We talked about the JET chip and we both laughed our asses off. He said my best bet would probably be the Apex'i S-AFC. It's about $410 retail and should give me at least 7 HP and some better mileage. From his experience, he told me Toyota and Nissan run their cars rich from the factory and running on a leaner mixture will improve fuel economy and power. He did tell me there is a limit though, apparently it's safer to run rich for the engine, but it shouldn't be a problem going leaner.

So here's the breakdown:

Hyper Ground System Wires: just under $130
....Should make about 5HP and improve gas mileage...added 2 MPG on Eric's Lexus.

Dyno: $75
....3 pulls for baseline and then 3 more pulls after wires are installed.

Apex'i S-AFC: $290 plus install and tuning
....hoping to see at least 1 MPG increase and 7 HP to the wheel.

If all goes well, I just might distribute the Hyper Ground System wires for XS to Maxima.org and maybe we can work on the price.

Canuck

This will be interesting. I can't wait for the results.

Thanks for all the hard work

1MAX2NV

iTrader: (5)

Are you going to dyno the Hyper Ground first then do the S-AFC second? I would like to see independent dyno of those two mods.

dmontzsta

iTrader: (8)

There pricing is not too bad. My friend is doing there website and I have spoke to Eric via email a couple of times regarding a turbo on the VE, he seemed very helpful. Also, Craig Lieberman told me he really knows his stuff, if he tells you to get something cause you need it...get it. Ask him if he remembers the guy emailing him about turbo charging a Maxima...

xChungHsienx

sorry but what are the wires and what exactly do they do? Thanks and good luck with the installs

Kevin Wong

We'll see what happens. I'm definitely going to dyno first to get a baseline, then install the wires, and do another set of pulls.

I'm not sure how they'll tune the S-AFC, but I hope they don't go overboard...I'm going to be dead-broke afterwards. I'm guessing the installation and tuning will be about $150 or so.

As far as the wires, they are a much thicker gauge (6 I think) and inrease the resistence of the car's electrical system. If Voltage equals Current times Resistence, when you increase the resistence, you'll either increase the current or voltage. I'm not sure what the results will be, but cars so far have seen from 2-13 HP and 2-6 MPG increase. There has yet to be a car to show no gains, but then again, I'll be the 7th car tested.

The kit consists of 5 wires, battery post terminal, and zip ties. Basically if you look at your battery on the negative side, you'll see that a wire goes right, to the chasis. Another grounds at the transmission, engine block, intake manifold, and another at the chasis. The wires, piggyback with the exsisting ground wires.

02MaximizedVQ

All cars run rich from the factory to have a nice fat safety window in regards to cylinder temps (rich=cold and lean=hot) and the lowest detonation levels possible. But its far from the stoichiometric ratio that will maximize the combustion energy. So basically they should be tuning your car while monitoring at least three things A)horespower obviously B) exhuast gas temps and C) ignition timing or knock. You do have an EGT gauge or I'm assuming they will be monitoring it somehow? Are they going to hook your computer up to a display so they can see all the engine parameters?

Jesse

xChungHsienx

Keep us posted, interested to see how everything turns out. Thanks

Kevin Wong

I'm not sure exactly how they will be tuning, but I would like an EGT gauge in my car so at least I can monitor it and make sure my system won't run into any problems in the future. They are actually certified as Apex'i Power Excel and I think that's a rare credential to have. I am starting to have second thoughts on the S-AFC due to funds and my hopes of obtaining an MEVI manifold. If I were to get the MEVI, I think I'd want to retune my system. I'm the kind of guy that likes to get everything done all at once...however, my wallet says I may have to but that on hold.

theblue

correct me if I'm wrong... but I thought that the S-AFC was not able to be used because the ECU notices the change and will correct back to stock ??? (can't remember where I heard this so don't take it as anything more than a theory)

MardiGrasMax

iTrader: (14)

if you set the low/hi point at 39%/40% it works just fine.

Y2KevSE

iTrader: (13)

theblue

I'm not clear about what you are talking about there.. please give me a little more detail

Bags

iTrader: (3)

yeah it's monday.. how did the dyno turn out?

MardiGrasMax

iTrader: (14)

The low/high throttle position switch over.

bacid

outa curiosity.. if you wanted to run higher gauge ground wires, why dont you just buy some 4 gauge stereo wire and replace it yourself? it would be a lot cheaper than paying $140 for nicer looking wires.

1MAX2NV

iTrader: (5)

Where can I buy this? I'm going to dyno it also. Can you take some pictures where you exactly attached the wires to?

theblue

oh... I thought you were replying to my post about the S-AFC not working

Y2KevSE

iTrader: (13)

He was. He's telling you the workaround.

Kevin Wong

Well the dyno was good and bad. The bad part is, my number's were lower than I was expecting. The good part is the gains were very good.

The results:
Power gains throughout the whole power band

2-4 HP and 5-10 ft-lbs of torque from 1,750-3,500 RPM
4-12 HP and 6-22 ft-lbs of torque from 3,500-6,000 RPM

All this for just under $130. I sent my dyno graphs to 97GLE and I think he's going to host them for me.

dental stud

12 HP and 22 ft-lbs just by replacing some wires? Sign me up!

Anachronism

If that's for real I want it. But how is it better than spending $30-40 on some heavy gauge stereo wires? I don't see how a better ground can give any power gain, let alone the dramatic gains you claim. You're still N/A right?

Does the Apexi S-AFC have to be professionaly installed and tuned? How much does that add to the price? Up to now everyone was saying you would see very small gains from a AFC if you were N/A, has this changed?

The JWT will work in your 97?

Lime

I'll try some...sign me up.

although hey...what pieces are being replaced? I wanna do some research.

97GLE

I posted this in the other thread also...

xChungHsienx

Hey those are pretty nice gains, is this mod available for 5th gen? and do you think it'll have the same effects? I think those gains are definetly worth it for 130.

DCmax

iTrader: (2)

So basically, all it is, is just an upgrade of the ground wire. If so, I did this two years ago when I installed my system. I just split the positive battery wires cluster, bought a new lightning audio terminal post, and switched the ground to 2 gauge. Back then, it was my understanding that you can only give as much power out as you take in, thus upgrading my ground.

I've never dyno'd my car, but maybe I should.

emax02

iTrader: (1)

This seems to good to be true. How does the butt dyno feel to you? BTW not calling you a liar or anything like that, I am just used to nothing ever really working

The Max

Ok son, the BS stops right here.

A little standard electrical theory for you guys ...

Yes, Voltage = Current x Resistance BUT what voltage are we talking about?

See, ideally, there should be no voltage drop across a wire. But because we live in an imperfect world, wires have an inherent resistance to them. This results in a voltage drop and is calculated as follows:

Voltage across wire = Voltage at one end of wire (closest to source) - Voltage at other end (closest to load) = current flowing through wire x resistance of wire.

Now think about it people, if you increase the resistance in the wire, the load will continue to draw the same amount of current. Either way, this means an increase in voltage drop across the wire meaning LESS power being supplied to the load!

Why else do you think Optima (GREAT batteries by the way!!) love to brag about their low internal resistance? If they had a higher internal resistance, less power would make its way to your car's electrical system.

Now, if these Hyper-Craps were meant to provide more power to your vehicle's electrical system by introducing a better earth/ground, they'd be of a heavier gauge than 6! (remember the smaller the number, the fatter the cable).

So rule number 1 in power transmission:
KEEP ALL RESISTANCES TO AN ABSOLUTE MINIMUM

Rule number 2:
CURRENT FLOW DOES NOT CHANGE UNLESS THE LOAD DEMANDS THE CHANGE

Rule number 3:
INCREASED RESISTANCE DOES MEAN A GREATER VOLTAGE ... DROP!! Don't forget that word in your explanations, will you now Kevin?

I make no apologies, Kevin, when I personally attack you for being an absolute twit. You have either been brainwashed or you are attempting to brainwash by knowingly BSing the unsuspecting. Either way, wake up yourself and smell what you're shovelling.

Chebosto

iTrader: (1)

V=IR

Matt93SE

iTrader: (44)

Hmmm, 5 wires.. 6 gauge. so let's say 10 ft of that stuff total, plus a few connectors and a battery terminal.
$1/ft for the wire (and that's a high estimate for someone buying in quantity) = $10.
$1 each for the connectors (retail price. their price is probably closer to $0.10 each). = $10.
Battery Terminal = $20 (retail price again. they probably pay $5, if it's a GOOD one.).

Total price = $40, RETAIL for the kit, and that's if you buy everything at a car audio shop straight off the shelf.

I have a hard time believing this.
1. That you can simply add a few grounds and gain 12hp (at some point or another)
you MIGHT gain a few HP, yes. I have a feeling the gains are more because you reset the ECU than upgrading the grounds.
2. That anyone in their right mind would pay $140 for a few feet of wire.

Kevin Wong

Wow, looks like I made a new friend. I never claimed to know everything, I was just merely trying to give an answer to so many questions. I apologize for any misinformation I gave out. When I sat down and really thought about it, the Hyper Ground kit I got has to be 4 gauge or numerically smaller. I have a 4 gauge positive amp cable from my Optima Yellow to my distribution block. When I re-read the box, it says "this kit gives you the lowest impedance." My original thought was this was cause and a decrease in voltage or an increase in current would be the result. I think I got it reversed...The wires are thicker and and are suppose to conduct better than the still existant stock wires. Therefore the cause would be an increase in current and the result would be either a decrease in impedance or increase in voltage, or maybe a little bit of both. Someone correct me if I'm wrong. My sincerest apologies to "the Max" as I think he was the most offended by my post so far. I don't claim to know how this kit works. I think we should try harder at being friendly on this board, no one's out to get anyone. I came across a good thing that I thought we all could benefit from, thought I'd test it and verify the gains. Maybe next time I'll just save myself the $40 in installation and $75 for dyno fee if there's going to be all this "attacking."

As for anyone else, if you're in Socal, I strongly recommend this mod. Ogredave is going to try a set on his SC'd Max once he gets the alternator replaced (damn 97's).

bill99gxe

iTrader: (1)

A profound statement.........





I remember in college we had a guy do a "cheat sheet" for a test in a power system course for the entire class. He thought it would be cute to pass out a page that looked like this:



V = I * R



Gee, thanks, I didn't know that....

OgreDave

iTrader: (1)

I still am, but I'm not gonna bother dyno'n. Who cares anyways .. the max, grow up, this isn't a penis comparison. There's no need to be so hostile .. he tried, and explained it as neutrally as he could, and his dyno's show gains. Why would he post negatively if they showed gains on his car? Just to impress you? Please..

If you wanna yell at someone, try 411, and ask for XS in Huntington Beach, CA.

The Max

If you feel it was a neutral message, that's up to you. Personally, it doesn't seem all that neutral. Secondly, if you don't claim to be an expert on something, and by that you mean that you do not know the specifics, don't even speculate because it's this kind of misinformation that deceives the public, be it intentionally or not. Thirdly, if this was to be a ***** comparison, it would've been a "discussion" on whose Maxima motor puts the most power to the wheels or similar.

I make no apologies for getting so steamed at what seems to me to be an infomercial-like post. If it is indeed what I suspect, then Kevin deserves it. If it isn't, then it should be at least a rude awakening to what the term "waste of money" really means. Horsepower gains of that magnitude certainly don't happen by just changing ground leads. If we are to talk electrical upgrades resulting in 12hp increases, or more, then we talk of ignition systems where I genuinely gained 23hp by installing a Jacobs Pro-Street ignition system into my vehicle. At least the theory behind the gains is plausible, which is more than what I can say for a ground lead change.

So the next time you tell me to grow up, just remember, grown ups don't actually have more money in their pocket by accident. They make educated decisions on what is a good value purchase and what is a snake-oil miracle.

Kevin Wong

I did a little research in amp power cables and came across this:
http://www.crutchfield.com/cgi-bin/S...01G01B&o=m&a=0
Crutchfield claims that Streetwires' best power wire withstands heat up to 221 degrees. If this is Celsius that it's all good, but it is probably farenheit. From the places my Hyper Ground touch, the high heat-resistant characteristics is essential. One wire is no big deal as it just goes from the battery to the chasis. But three of the five wires touch or sit very close to the intake manifold and engine block. This would probably melt the coating of the amp wires and you'd have yourself a mess. I'm wondering how much heat the Hyper Ground can take. So far so good.

As an update, I've put on 220 miles since the installation and my mileage is looking good. I won't say anything concrete until after 4 tanks of gas, but I'm postitive I'm getting better mileage. Also, my 700 watt RMS sound system is a lot cleaner. I use to have a little hiss when I turned my headunit on; as well as when I changed sources from tuner/cd/Aux. One more thing, on Groupbuycenter.com someone is running a group deal on the HKS version of the Hyper Ground. They are slightly different, in that, they have a distribution block. They are running for $135 shipped plus tax if you are in Ca. Sun Auto told me about the HKS version and said they weren't as good. HKS products never made it big in Japan however, and this was what their competitors had to say...I'm not sure if we can take their word on it for sure.

So far a few people expressed interest in the Hyper Ground and I'm going to be talking to Sun Auto to see if they can offer us a discount. I'm shooting to try and get the 3-layer shieided wires for $105 and the 4-layer shielded for $125. I'll keep those who are interested updated.

mingo

iTrader: (4)

i'm not sure if neone has said this, but they can put a sniffer on your pipe

mingo

iTrader: (4)

as far as the insulation on the cables melting.. i think it'll be fine.. back when i was highly into rice rockets i had to run wires all over the place for various reasons. i remeber on a few cars just to look "cool" i'de change the factory ground cable on the engines with phoneix gold ruby colored cables so it would match my friend's red valve cover or when my firends had blue valve covers i'de use the saphire blue cables.. it's been quite a few years and the cables look like they're doing fine, the insulation are still holding strong, however i have observed a little bit of oxidation in the metal. i'm not worried about this because of two main reason. number one being, it's not my car. and number two is their stock ground straps were oxidizing too. those fools have very smooth running engines and they are true abusers of cars, they've run the engine way too lean and way too rich, boosted and juiced, so i'm sure their engines have reached temperatures most of us would not want our cars to reach while sober. i think the hyper wire sounds like a good products mainly because i've seen them fly off shelves in taiwan even tho they cost a grip load of money, perhaps it may even be the next "tornado air"but i haven't heard any complaints thus far so it just might be a good addition to the mod list for the many of us.

carnal_c30

iTrader: (38)

if this was all done at XS than its good to me!

Eric @ XS is a really good friend of my friends and is well known even 7000 miles across the Pacific Ocean in Taiwan... XS is a quality shop and while I am surprised by the gains I dont feel I need to doubt them

Kevin Wong

Yeah, well if anyone doubts the gains. Give Eric Hsu a call at XS and have a talk with him. He was the guy who is testing the Hyper Ground. Eric has them on his GS300 and he said he's getting 2 MPG better. Everyone was surprised with my gains at XS because I was the first car dyno'd with them straight before and after.

arthur glazier

I have the grounding wires also, and I understand where they connect the wires makes all the differance. So my question is wher did they connect to? Try to me specific please. Thank you , I beleave