DandyMax

iTrader: (7)

I never said I've got stock cams...


Ok I mentioned an alternative to drilling the cams/getting adapters. If you have machining access here's what can be done. I think the picture is mostly self-explanatory. You still need to make a spacer obviously, there's no getting around that, but only one dowel is used, and it's not fixed into the thin spacer/adapter, but into the cam itself. You remove the stock dowel from the 3.5 cam and replace it with a single longer dowel that can be bought at most specialized fastener places (like Spaue-Naur for example) for pennies (it's just standard hardened 6mm dowel).

nismology

iTrader: (8)

Interesting. How does your intake cam timing (more specifically intake centerline) compare to the 3.0 cam timing? I remember reading from the VQ35 swap pioneers that the dowel wasn't exactly 180* off. Your thoughts?

DandyMax

iTrader: (7)

The centerline is retarded compared to stock 3.0.

Got a link? How did they come to the conclusion it wasn't 180?

DandyMax

iTrader: (7)

Did you get his standard 3.5 adapters or request specific intake timing? BTW your exhaust opening with stock 3.5 cams is at 52* BBDC and closing is at 8* ATDC. For overlap you are interested in the exhaust closing and the intake opening.

vipervadim

iTrader: (10)

not stock 3.5 cams??

i see.. that's cool, i just hope your heads can flow.

It's definitely not exactly 180 degrees on the intake cams.
I have both tilley's and stephenmax's cam adapters, and they are both off-center
i even checked the cam adapters installed on 3.5L cams compared to stock 3.0L intake cam.. they both line up by the lobes.
tilley's was closer than stephenmax's tho..

Nealoc187

iTrader: (23)

his house garage. it's not a big $150,000 machine like we have at work, but it does good 3D machining.

SPiG

iTrader: (7)

With most aftermarket cams you don't want them timed at the exact same spec as stock. That is why adjustable cam pulleys exist. You can have the sprocket machined to have any amount of cam timing. 180* is probably a decent starting point.

I have had this same idea for some time now. I am glad you were able to do it and that it came out so well.

You could have just not drilled the inner sprocket and just rotated it and made a mark for alignment with the chain. The outer sprocket needs to be machined though to allow for the cam sensor readings.

spdfreak

Do you have the dimentions to the spacer/washer part.
Thickness / inside diameter / outside diameter.

I think I can have some one replicate these for real cheap, not that I want to take buisness away from anyone.

DandyMax

iTrader: (7)

I have done as much homework as possible on this engine with the information available. I made my choices after spending weeks meticulously measuring everything up and building and running a model using some pretty good engine simulation software. That, and based on the first phase of the next setup to come (read 3.5). So at this point I'm reasonably comfortable the DEK will perform to the level I want it to, even if I have to tweak some things or modify a component or two further to get me there, it's all been thought through from many angles. And hey, if it doesn't quite work out as well as planned, well that's life, I've done what I could with the information available, given my goals and budget - what else can one do?

But in general, with a head that's somewhat restricted, a more aggressive cam is needed (to a point). With great flowing heads, you don't need as much lift/duration since you're moving more air in the same amount of time.


I think there's some confusion here between the separation angle on the adapters and what it would be just based off the dowel position on the stock cams. StephenMax (and Tilley also I assume) make adapters to achieve a specific cam timing which is different than the stock 3.5 timing, which results in the dowels not being 180* apart.

You could get away with just rotating the secondary sprocket if you were setting the dowels exactly at 180. However if you're changing that angle then I'd say no, because you'll be limited by significantly discrete steps given the angle between each tooth, unless you rotate the intake and exhaust secondaries as an assembly, but if you do that then the exhaust timing changes also. (And keep in mind whatever degree change you make on the sprocket is actually double on the crank, so it doesn't take a large change to make a large change.. haha).

nismology

iTrader: (8)

I see what you're saying now Dan. It's not that the holes aren't 180* apart, they just didn't want to relocate the dowel pin 180* because it would result in cam timing that they didn't want, I guess. Amirite?

DandyMax

iTrader: (7)

Yep. That's how you set the cam timing, by changing the angle between the dowels. If the stock dowels are 180 apart and you keep that angle, then you get 3.5 fully retarded timing (on stock cams).

Or in other words... "yezzirr" - lol.

spdfreak

Dandymax, after me looking over the pictures for a while I think I noticed what I missed the first 100 times. You cut the sprockets opposite the origonal cut.

Am I correct?

TDotMax

iTrader: (1)

Got, I got specific timing on the intake at 56*

I know I'm fine witht his. Re-read some inquiries I had before and sicussions with fellow orger's. Now its pretty much the time game for these

Can't wait to hear the motor.

Kevlo911

iTrader: (36)

So what cams are you using
Ebay knockoffs?

DandyMax

iTrader: (7)

IIRC ~3.1/20/43 mm but I'd have to check my notes. If you're making your own you should measure the cams though to verify/get the exact #'s.


Yes you cut the sprockets relatively "opposite." But as I mentioned in a previous post, that angle doesn't have to be exactly 180* - it all depends on what timing you want.


Sorry I might have asked you that before, but I have a lousy memory most of the time. Hmm so that will put your centerline at 117, which means your overlap is 10*

Have you checked the dowel position on your adapter(s)? It should 4* off the 180 line on the adapter.

TDotMax

iTrader: (1)

One day when your free, perhaps we can meet up and I will bring along the cams and spacers and compare from there. I'll shoot you a PM.

95maxrider

iTrader: (32)

Glad to see the car is running again. Any chance of getting a vid?

Also, how do you have your cutout mounted? Do you have an electrical cutout?

spdfreak

I knew I was right about which motor I have in my 2000.

The car was built in 03/2000 and on the plate in the firewall it says VQ30 (DE).

Which part am I missing that the 00-01 cars are dek?

Explain.

TDotMax

iTrader: (1)

This is unrelated to the topic posted. Please use the search function or post the question in a new topic.

SPiG

iTrader: (7)

Too true, but with a 180* move it shouldn't be a problem. It looks like the sprocket even has an alignment mark for it.

It is also true that if you try to offset the angles any more than 180* then the exhaust timing will be changed, which if you really know what you are doing could be a good thing. You could also machine the inner sprocket independently of the outer to change the exhaust timing, but that is getting pretty complicated for most. It is fairly common on KA24DEs to do this sort of thing. They don't even use a machine shop in the write up.
http://jimwolftechnology.com/wolfpdf...STRUCTIONS.PDF
http://www.nicoclub.com/articles.php?id=199832

So what are the exact specs if you machine the sprocket 180* from the stock dowel hole? If you don't mind lending us your hard work

DandyMax

iTrader: (7)

Yes you could do the exhaust independently but I can tell you that the exhaust timing has much less impact than the intake timing, and the stock 3.5 exhaust setting is decent at 112, for a power band that's fat up top. I evaluated different exhaust timings for my setup but decided it didn't really need to be changed.

With stock 3.5 cams, if you machine the sprocket at 180* the centerlines INT/EXH will be 125/112.

DandyMax

iTrader: (7)

I intend to post a video up for sure, but it will be a few days yet before I can get one. My IACV is malfunctioning/sticking and playing havoc with my idle right now so I'm trying to address that. When it's actually working she idles beautifully at 650-700 rpms with a bit of lope now that I've tuned it up somewhat. Still have to re-tune partial throttle though, that's this weekend's project.

I actually don't have an electric cutout, I sold the one I had to someone else and now I just have a manual one that's easy to undo with 3 wing nuts. It's mounted right on the end of the y-pipe.

cw96

iTrader: (31)

Hey dan glad to hear you got the beast running.I final opened mine up and you were right about the buckets over the springs are smaller than on the regular DE motors so looks like I'll have to do some grinding work also to get these cams to fit.Thanks for the heads up on that. I have just a quick question off topic about your cut out.I think I read that you have bypassed your maf unit(Is this correct?)that maybe you are running a speed density setup and if you are does this mean that you are running a separate tuning program for when you run your cut out on your exhaust.Running cutouts with the maf and it will compensate for the raised engine VE but with the set up you have wouldn't you have to set a different program to keep from running lean and getting knock at wot?I would love to see a dyno with cutouts opened(and properly tuned) and then closed(and properly tuned) just to see how much power is lost with the extra backpressure.Here I go again whoring up someones thread with something off topic lol.Sorry I just figured with the set up you have you would be the best to ask this question.

DandyMax

iTrader: (7)

BTW turns out the DEK covers were fine. Yes I'm running without a MAF in the car. I didn't have a separate tune set up for the cutout. And I've never had knock in this car. My Cattman exhaust is so free flowing (with no cat at the track) I've noticed almost no power difference with the cutout open/closed. In fact I ran the 13 flat with it closed. At this point it's more about sound and being able to hear myself next to an open header V8 rather than anything else I think. I still intend to verify that on the dyno next time I get to one but I don't expect to see any measurable difference.

And OT, I hardly EVER race on the street, and in general I don't condone it, but last night at 2 am with no one around on the freeway coming home this modded 5.5th gen with blingy wheels wanted to go. Would have been a fun one, one of us would have been in for a big surprise, but all I could do was wave as he took off. Stupid clutch break in.. lol.

Nealoc187

iTrader: (23)

I say clutch break-in periods are overrated, but that's just me

DandyMax

iTrader: (7)

What timing are you running on those cams again? Something I didn't mention before but I shouldn't take for granted, you are going to need something to control fuel and timing or you may have trouble idling/driving under 2000 rpm...

Hah! Yeah I know, but I figured I'd try to do the break in properly, plus I haven't tuned WOT yet so I don't want to punch it at high rpm and be really lean (which I'm almost certain to be...)

cw96

iTrader: (31)

I'm installing the S1 knockoffs for the 3.5 using stephenmaxs adapters with his standard timing advance.Opps I think I see what your meaning I might have too much overlap because the spacers were made for the stock 3.5 cams.Oh well if it doesn't work it's just another reason for me to go ahead and install a 3.5 As of now I'm running a neo to control my afr but I plan on running a e-ultimate before long thats why I was asking about you using the map sensor instead of the maf to control your afr.As far as idling I'll probable just adjust the idle screw for now.Funny how my car idled like crap after installing the dek but after installing a bigger maf it idles perfect after adjusting the inputs on my afc for the bigger maf.Go figure?!

DandyMax

iTrader: (7)

Yes I know you're installing the S1 knockoffs, but did you ever finalize the cam timing... ie how much overlap - it's going to affect your idle and low rpm driveability and you're going to need to correct both fuel and timing most likely, unless you plan to use the set screw on the TB to idle at 1000+ but that's like using an axe to skin an apple if you ask me... lol.

cw96

iTrader: (31)

no I haven't finalized anything as far as the cam timing yet.I've been search the web for a good dyno simulation program so I can run sims with differant timing numbers but the only thing I've found is the desktop dyno from summit racing.

DandyMax

iTrader: (7)

Ok here's a teaser video. It's not with an open cutout sadly, but I'll get one made with an open cutout in the next few days. The idle's not exactly where I want it yet either but it's gettin' there..

It never sounds the same online as in person so please check your EQ settings, make sure bass/treble are relatively balanced and up at least to the middle on the sliders, a bit more bass than treble is good to counteract the ambient/background noise also since it's just off a camcorder mic. Maybe when I do the cutout one I'll set up an actual mic...

Cammed DEK Part 1 (cutout closed)

Stay tuned for part 2...

95BLKMAX

iTrader: (10)

oooh boy, that sounds like sexiness, GIIIIIVE!~!!! LOOLZ

DandyMax

iTrader: (7)

Just wait till Part 2 with the cutout actually open...

Although I gotta say if you listen to that vid on a computer without a good sound setup (ie crappy 2 little speakers or whatever) it sounds bad. Much better in person, too much extraneous noise and reverberation in the garage there with the basic mic on the camcorder. I'll see what I can do for the next one.

spdfreak

SOUNDS SEXY!

Sounds great! And you can really hear those cams with a little lope.
(Am I correct or is it my crappy laptop speakers?)

PS. I'm going for a DEK swap, and if I got the extra money I'll get cams like yours.

Oh, and your only partially tuned? Whats left to be done? And do you do your own tunning?

Ceasars Chariot

iTrader: (16)

ha ! neal you rule ! dan job well done ! video kinda reminds me of the Jaws theme in an automotive kinda way... soon she will be screaming at the track, and the crowds will be running for cover !!

gtr_rider

iTrader: (50)

sounds real mean on my 5.1 setup.. cant wait for open cutout

DandyMax

iTrader: (7)

Yes that's lope. I have yet to tune cold start/warmup idle, and WOT mainly (clutch break in). Driveability (low/partial throttle/cruise has mostly been taken care of now. Yes I do all my own tuning, always have. I'm still having an issue with my IACV, but will be swapping in a spare so hopefully that'll take care of it.

michaelnyden

iTrader: (15)

can't wait to hear it...

now I need to get cams and have those heads I have sitting around port and polished!

which cutout do you have dandy? I have the qtp one on my 2000 max...where are is it in your exhaust stream? mine is welded in a straight pipe, so it's right after the cattman headers...sounds beautiful on the de-k! can't imagine what top end would sound like with cams and tune...

G4nismo

iTrader: (9)

i wanna hear it opened now!

98MaXeDouT

iTrader: (6)

I'm in the process of getting another 3.5 built. I'm supercharged; would it be beneficial to us FI guys to have that angle adjusted, to essentially retard the timing? Or is that just crazytalk?

Tatanko

iTrader: (34)

Sounds to me like you're referring to ignition timing and he's referring to cam timing. Two totally different things.