JSutter

iTrader: (46)

1st I want to thank Poowill for the camber plates, Soybeanz for the Koni's, MZMTG for the rear mounts, and IIRC ne max for the ground controls.

Now before you go off and say I should have bought D2 or Ksport let me say this: Konis.... period.

Its been a long time gathering the parts to do this, but I finally have everything. My new suspension consists of shortened Koni yellows up front, B14 AGX out back, G/C with ERS springs (450f/ 350r), Stillen camber plates, and Bens rear mounts. I dont have the rears installed yet, as I ran out of day light putting this stuff together. You may wonder why the rears are off a B14, you just have to wait and see.

For now Ill leave you with pix of the front setup. Tomorrow I will post up the rears, along with more info. I havent driven much at all, but the car is lower and I have more wheel travel. Like 3x the travel, its pretty nice. Oh and the ride is not much different than the AGX/Eibachs.

Just so you know heres the cost break down:
Ground controls: $100
Koni Yellows: $200 (full set plus an extra front)
B14 AGX: $60
Camber plates: $120
Bens mounts: $75

For a grand total of $555, thats less than the AGX and Eibachs new! Crazy huh? I should add about $15 for misc screws, RTV, paint, and such.

JSutter

iTrader: (46)

I never thought about the boots. I should get the rancho boots! I used them on my winter suspension. They are like $3 each, so its not a bad investment.

Some day when I get the one rear koni fixed (bent piston) i may use them, but for now its B14's!
The b14's are 1" shorter, so that cats out of the bag lol.

JSutter

iTrader: (46)

MaximaSE96 go shorten your front koni's NOW! BTW B14 rear konis are reds, not that it matters much, still no external adjustments. Also the red will lower you car that 1" on traditional springs, so you would need coilovers. Like I said I will post up more pix tomorrow.

There really isnt much different of a ride because A) AGX are harsh B) there is more wheel travel to keep off the bump stops. Even a mild drop like Eibachs have very little wheel travel. Every one out there on Stechs, Sprints, etc. think their car rides so great and couldnt be better. EVERY lowered Max needs to buy Konis and shorten them. You will get an extra 1". If you buy 3rd gen Maxima Koni reds you can gain much, much more since they are shorter. I was going to get them, but they are not externally adjustable. I also got a super deal on the yellows. Also some type of rear mount is needed, weather it be Motivational Engineering, Bens, or others, travel is the key here.
The best thing you can do it get more travel. I really couldnt tell much of a difference in ride quality even when adjusting it. I was about as high as stock, and then 2" lower and it rides the same.

JSutter

iTrader: (46)

There is a slight rattle and it could be many things. Koni's use a plastic disc that sits on the gland nutt, and I can hear that, but there is another noise. Its either Stillens crappy bearing or I didnt get the Konis tight inside the strut housing. Its not loud at all, but with the radio off and the windows down its noticable. No worries seeing as it can be cured. Its nothing like my Sentra.

Something I would love to get is either helper springs or tender springs. I just need to keep my eye out. Also seeing as the front is threaded entirely I could get longer springs, especially good if these ever coil bind.

Curt

iTrader: (27)

You may be on to something there about that spherical bearing on the Stillen camber plate.........I know from experience having bought a pair of used plates. Could only hear the slight knock on something like a gravel driveway or crossing railroad tracks. Drove me nuts! Changed over to the Eibach camber bolts and found an expert alignment shop that was able to bring the front camber into spec. With 8" front rims and expensive, unidirectional rubber, too much negative camber can really wipe out good tires.
BTW, this same alignment shop found the left-rear to have too much toe-in. I've owned the car since day-one and have never had any experience that could account for that. But within a few months of buying the car (new) I was back to the stealership with complaints about the car having a very slight, almost unnoticable "drift" to the left. They never could account for that, and finally told me that it was my imagination. But now with this finding of the left-rear toe-in being too excessive (and seeing that tire wear with a slight cupping to the tread), I know what's causing the drift. Too bad it's not easily correctable.

MaximaSE96

iTrader: (8)

i will prolly shorten them up over the winter....when i have my own garage to work in.....i have ben's mounts i just have to put on....i want to get soem prices on b14 rears.......i have only hit the bump stops in front a couple of time on larger bumps but i woudl still like the travel....to be honest i kinda was thinking about going with rear illuminas for a while because of the external adj. but i have my Yellows set about in the middle and its very livable on the street and with fronts full stiff....RSB the oversteer is still greatly reduced...so i might just wait and save my money until i really need new ones

Apparition

iTrader: (5)

speaking of Bens mounts I should look into that I suppose.. as far as camber plates, a good amount of orgers said I wouldnt need them for my setup. Egh anyways I cn't get enough of that J. its good stuff, esp. for that price it's a blessing.

- Eibach
- AGX

JSutter

iTrader: (46)

OOOh pink, yea thats a cheap threaded sleve I had from another coilover setup. Its more of a magenta maybe. I didnt paint it thats for sure.

I tore down one of the camber plates and the bearings are not anything special, no teflon lining which would help. They are about $40 each for the ones in there already, so I'm not going to get into those anytime soon.
The camber plates are from Stillen and as far as I know Cusco made them, OR Stillen made one hell of a copy.

These Konis are for the 4th gen and are the same length as stock to begin with. To shorten the Koni you must cut some of the end off (VOIDS WARRANTY!), drill out the bottom of the strut to 1" and let the threaded part stick out. It will gain you 1", which seems like nothing right? Well if you did this with a mild drop spring you would pretty much get all the travel back. Like I have said countless times, the 3rd gen (89-94) Koni reds are 3.5" shorter. They can handle a 500in/lb spring no problem. They are also what Motivational Engineering used for just about all their shortened setups. Koni does make shorter externally adjustable struts as well. But they take much more work to install, cost more, and for the average person dont have any other benifits really.

For a good Koni install check this out (including shortening them): http://www.johnandtracey.com/gallery/struts

ERS stands for Eibach Race Spring, Ground control uses Eibach exclusively on its kits. Eibach makes springs of all types, their ERS line covers all sizes for coilover applications. They are quality, no **** poor Ebay unknown rates that bind up because of the crappy wire used. IIRC Boss Chens use Eibachs.

For those who would like to get into this, good luck. None of these part are cheap when new. Its also a pain to find a good deal on them. The camber plates are discontinued already so that will be the hardest. These parts are very under rated, and not to many people have them, let alone to sell used.

cardana24

iTrader: (81)

the collars have allen bolts in them to pinch to collar when you have it where you want it. There is not another ring to lock it into place like D2's and K-sport.

JSutter

iTrader: (46)

GC uses an allen screw to tighten the collar, like a clamp. It squeezes around the threaded sleeve. You can see the screw in the 3rd pic.

Driving from my apartment to my parents garage with the a/c on, windows down, and radio up the noises are faint, but there. Its kind of a clunk, I'll dive into it sometime. In honesty its no where near as bad as an early 4th gen. They have so many interior rattles its rediculous.

***I still need to do the other side, so dont ask me how it rides.***

Forgive me and my shotty camera skills. Pics of the B14 rears. Those who dont know the B14 is a 95-99 200sx/Sentra. The same rear shock is used in the 99-02 Infiniti G20, and also the newer B15 Sentras.



[img]


Good shot of Bens mounts on the left, and ME mounts on the right. They both do the same thing, more rear travel. As you can see the Eibach spring was slipping off....my guess is because I didnt use poly bushings.





As you can see its quite abit shorter. With the coilover adjusted to the top. Right now its about a finger gap. You could easily use the stock mount to raise the car about 1".

More info comming after I finish.

JSutter

iTrader: (46)

Its resting on the big spot on the piston, Im pretty certin this is the correct way. It fits around it perfectly.

JSutter

iTrader: (46)

Well for all you slammed lovers, the B14 rears will do you good. They will lower the car 1" from what ever you have now. Problem is IMO they are too low to use with even the shortened Koni yellows. They will work best with 3rd gen Koni reds. This way you can even the stance, while retaining good travel. I cant get a measurement of the wheel travel up front right now. There is not enough room to get up in there.

Right now the rears are all the way up. There is 1 finger gap. So I had to lower the front to even it out. It was my only fear, the car being too low I mean. I could toss in the stock upper mounts to raise the rear, which I may, or I could use regular A32 shocks. We'll see. I wasnt trying to slam the car, but I cant raise the rear. Sure it looks good, but the ride is starting to suffer.

JSutter

iTrader: (46)

Thanks guys. The ride is much better than the AGX/Eibachs on full stiff. Its slightly rougher at this height than before. I did put the konis to fill stiff, up from 1.5 turns. The rear AGX are on 3. Idealy raising the car up about 1" would make me happy. Maybe Ill put those rear konis you use in the near future. Im going to test this setup out for some time before making any changes and Ill get used to it. I have only driven in town and less than 40 mph. Maybe I can get some highway runs in tonight. There is a bridge on 295 that I hated driving on with the AGX and even more so with a RSB.

Its also funny to note that the noises are very faint now. The rear make a noise similar to the front, possibly an error on my part with the sleeves.

I still have the amber lights, but like always something gets changed frequently. You'll see them again be sure of it.

Fr33way™

iTrader: (23)

Damn that is low, how is your rear camber? With camber plates I was able to keep great camber up front with no accelated wear but if I slammed the rear I would notice the inside of the tires wearing at a very quick pace.

JSutter

iTrader: (46)

Its definetly too low. But Ill test this setup out a bit before changing the rear.









I have civic rear camber adjusters, i totally forgot.











But seriously, you know it doesnt change.

JSutter

iTrader: (46)

The B14 strut looks just as solid as the A32. The only thing I was worried of was the valving.

Im going to try a few different things with the B14 rears. The initial reason for using the B14's was the length. The spring wouldnt move around under full droop, and Id get a drop without having to crank the collar down. What I knew, but aparently forgot, was Bens mounts will drop the car roughly 1" when using the GC coilovers. So the 1" shorter strut plus bens mounts dropped the rear too much. Im tucking now that its settled. With the yellows shortend 1" up front it cant be lowered safely that low. No travel. The 3rd gen reds would solve that problem, but going this low or lower brings up more geometry issues than I want to deal with. The axles are probably at a harsh angle, the control arm is way high causing positive camber in hard corners, roll center is affected, alignments are off, and I dont even want to think about bump steer. It just make more sence for me and others who are more perfromance oriented to not go this low.

It handles really well on flat pavement, such as the high way. There is no body roll, its very responsive, and is a pretty good ride too. In the city with broken pavement, pot holes, train tracks and all the other fun stuff its not all that nice. Im very uneasy driving this low. For comparison take a look at the Eibach drop and then look at post #35.

JSutter

iTrader: (46)

And for the big picture, stock suspension:


I will take some measurement to see how low I really went.

JSutter

iTrader: (46)

Update:
Since I couldnt raise the rear I installed the stock upper rear mounts. It brought the car from tucking to about 3 finger gap. (I never wanted to go that low anyhow). Then I brought the front up to match. Thank God, I havent been driving the car much with it that low. It sucked big time. Now it rides well, so well that I cant wait to get my rear Konis fixed and installed. I have the front Konis set 1.5 turns from soft and the rear AGX on 1. I hate AGX now, they are harsh on anything but 1. I also found where the noises are comming from up front. The Koni inserts need to be shimed for a tighter fit. Its been really hot out, so I havent bother tuning anything.

JSutter

iTrader: (46)

The rears are the same size in every way, except for length. Depending on how low you want to go you can use the b14/b15/p11 rear stuff. But the b15 rear upper mounts are different, so those wont work. None of the front parts will work off the b13/b14/b15 as they are all smaller. Also the spring rates for the sentras will be lower, so keep that in mind.

The Sentras have a similar designed front end, but all the parts are smaller. The strut off a Sentra wouldnt bolt to a Maxima hub. Also the upper mount, bearing, and insulator are all smaller in size.

Kevlo911

iTrader: (36)

Even if we use our upper mount? Or does the lower not bolt on to our hub?

VQuick

iTrader: (17)

Jsutter, with your experience do you know how much suspension travel the stock 4th gen suspension has? I'd really like an exact number. It's got to be 3-4 inches or so...which explains why even 1.5" drop hurts ride so much.

I just ordered Boss Chens... 4"+ of travel, baby!

Any updates on your homemade coilovers? Great idea, by the way.

MainSource

J Sutter, looking back over this thread, I got kinda confused. Are you recommending using B14 konis in the rear and 4th gen koni yellows in the front? I'm looking to go for the best coilover set up I can get, with mucho wheel travel and a nice drop (1-1.5"). Any helpful info is greatly appreciated.

d00df00d

iTrader: (4)

If I may chime in, IIRC the stock suspension has something like 7 to 8 inches of total travel, of which about 4" is left when the car is on the ground.

4"+ total, or with the car on the ground?

JSutter

iTrader: (46)

I have never gotten a solid measurement in the compression stroke from ride height. Either my bump stops have been trimmed, the boot was in the way, or I didnt have the stock strut. I do know that Stechs are on the bump stops at ride height. To me that says we have less than 3" of travel.

The b14 rears work for people who want a slammed ride with Ground Controls. The fronts would NEED 3rd gen Koni reds due to lack of travel being that low, see post #35. I had the rear all the way up and the front set to match which had little travel. I switched some things in the rear and raised it up about 1" to Stech'ish levels. I still had full travel in the rear, with more travel in the front than I ever had in the past. The shortened front inserts are key here. I will be installing the Koni rears this spring to get the car higher off the ground.
The 3rd gen reds will be the best for travel. They are short as hell good for 2"+ drops. Drops of 1-1.5" would better suit the shortened 4th gen yellows up front and the 4th gen yellows out back.

phenryiv1

iTrader: (19)

Consolidated the info.

VQuick

iTrader: (17)

Well, I have personally measure the exposed piston length while uncompressed on front 4th gen Illuminas, and it was exactly 8". No matter how much you drop it the strut will always have that same length, obviously. So the only meaningful number is the length from rest to full compression, which is what I take to mean by "suspension travel". Technically the term would include decompression/extension too but that's not important.

See above; I don't have them in my hands yet but I presume that the 4-4.5" Larry quoted me referred to the travel from rest to full compression.

kc10fish

iTrader: (1)

great posts, informative - guess i wont be getting the AGX's now.

VQuick

iTrader: (17)

After I posted I realized that the actual numbers quoted for "suspension travel" might not be the distance between rest and full compression, but rather the distance between full extension and full compression. It doesn't matter, though, because 4" of travel is twice the travel of 2" however you measure it--assuming a consistent measurement standard, of course.

But there's no way you can get full extension while driving (which is, what, about a foot of wheelgap when you have the front end jacked up and the wheels are hanging?) unless you're offroading so maybe my original thought was right.

d00df00d

iTrader: (4)

2" is how much travel you have left on S-techs with your car on the ground. 4" is your coilovers' dampers' total travel from full extension to full compression. They're not really comparable.

The dampers on my Ksports also have about 4" of total travel from full extension to full compression (slightly more in front, slightly less in back), and I know for a fact that with my 9 kg/mm front and 6 kg/mm rear springs I have about 2" left when the car is on the ground. So, that's only slightly more than you end up with on stock dampers and S-techs. It's just that since 9/6 spring rates are way way WAY stiffer than S-techs, that same 2" is worth a lot more.

VQuick

iTrader: (17)

Heh, except I've read that with S-Techs, level on the ground, the tops of the strut bodies are literally resting on the bumpstops...which would equate to a lot less than 2" of free travel. Where are you getting your info? I'm not claiming mine is more trustworthy since I don't recall offhand who posted it, but it's more in line with reports of S-Techs terrible ride quality.

In any case, I've done a lot of research about suspension options for the 4th gen and my opinion based on what I feel is good evidence is that the suspension travel afforded by most coilovers for this application (at least BCs and the Teins) is far greater than that of any lowering spring/strut combo. Period. The qualitative evidence bears that out: everyone who switches to these coilovers raves about the ride improvement. And coming from H-Techs, a moderate (1.6/1.2") drop, where it seemed I was bottoming out all over town, I know how important travel is.

d00df00d

iTrader: (4)

That doesn't make sense to me. Why would anyone make springs that leave you sitting on the bumpstops?

What I've read is that S-Techs leave you uncomfortably close to the bumpstops, especially given how soft they are. I wouldn't be surprised if I was wrong about the actual number, but until this thread I hadn't seen any claims that they actually let your car rest on the bumpstops. A really really stiff ride is one thing, but riding on the bumpstops would be bone-shattering.

Maybe Tein has quality control issues with S-Techs and the margin of error is such that some springs sag to the point of sitting on the bumpstops?

VQ2fast4U

Ive got S-Techs and Koni yellows, and theres about 2" of travel in front when the car is sitting on level ground.

d00df00d

iTrader: (4)

Do you have the stock bumpstops? If so, is that 2" from the top of the bumpstop to the bottom of the strut mount?

VQ2fast4U

Ive got the KYB dust boots, so they are a little shorter IIRC. From the bottom of the bumpstop to the top of the strut its about 2". I never measured the distance, so 2" isnt presice.

VQuick

iTrader: (17)

Intersting VQ2, thanks. Man, we really need someone to measure the bumpstop-strut body distance on a stock Maxima. That would help a lot. Then a 2" drop leaves you with X-2" travel.

JSutter

iTrader: (46)

My buddy Josh, ti2tmax here on the forum, has Stechs. We were both parked in his dead level garage. He has Stechs and untrimmed bump stops on Illuminas. I checked it myself, NO TRAVEL, zero, nada, zip...... so its true. I on the other hand have a lower drop and a good amount of travel left. I used to have other springs and the most travel I had was with Eibachs, probably 1-1.5" of travel at ride height. My CMS springs had 3/8" if that, with trimmed bumps. Honestly no drop spring should be used with regular length struts, especially with the rates they are at. Eibach is the best considering the mild drop and highest available spring rate. Stechs are the worst due to the lowest drop and very soft rates.

4" of travel on coilovers is one of the drawbacks to using them on the street. When you go over a bump the wheel moves up and down naturally. Chances are it will reach full droop leaving no contact with the road.

Apparition

iTrader: (5)

So, in the end.. What do you recommend J? I mean an updated list of parts for the entire GC setup that would be ideal for that 2"/+ drop.

d00df00d

iTrader: (4)

How thick are stock bumpstops?

VQuick

iTrader: (17)

Thanks, JSutter.

This site defines suspension travel as "the distance between the bump stop and the top of the strut housing". D00d, the stock bumpstops are about 2" IIRC. That might explain why you read that there was 2" of travel with S-Techs (becuse the bumpstops can compress quite a bit, they're just foam) but JSutter attests that there is no travel, no space between the bumpstops and the strut body.

d00df00d

iTrader: (4)

That explanation makes sense.

I also realize now that we may have been confusing suspension travel with piston stroke...