rear drag suspension
12-17-2005, 04:23 PM
#1
rear drag suspension
Has anyone put some tall and insainly stiff springs in the back of their Max for drag use? Taller to shift more weight onto the front wheels and stiffer to stop the back end from squating when you launch and shift? I know Jime did a rig on the shock shaft with rubber donughts and hose clamps like extra tall bump stops. Any other ideas out their, I know I have a few tenths to pick up using this type of set up over my Eibachs and AGX.
12-17-2005, 04:40 PM
#2
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http://forums.maxima.org/showthread.php?t=441974
As in that thread I'd speculate that having the rear higher than the front puts more stress on the drive wheels, but I can't prove it. I know all the faster all motor civics running 11s-10s without wheelie bars seem to have a fairly jacked rear and slammed front.
Some SRT-4 can get 1.65-1.69 60 foots with only coilovers and slicks with similar power to you. 1.6 seems to be the limit for FWD cars without wheelie bars. I think your best is a 1.71, right? That's already really good.
I actually tried ratcheting straps on the front springs but they didn't really work. However, the day I tried those, I had brand 2 new tires up front vs. fairly worn ones the previous weekend so I'm still not sure what to make of it to this day.
I would also look into really wide wheels. If you're gonna run 10.5" slicks might as well go for a 15X10 weld wheel. Maximum contact patch.
As in that thread I'd speculate that having the rear higher than the front puts more stress on the drive wheels, but I can't prove it. I know all the faster all motor civics running 11s-10s without wheelie bars seem to have a fairly jacked rear and slammed front.
Some SRT-4 can get 1.65-1.69 60 foots with only coilovers and slicks with similar power to you. 1.6 seems to be the limit for FWD cars without wheelie bars. I think your best is a 1.71, right? That's already really good.
I actually tried ratcheting straps on the front springs but they didn't really work. However, the day I tried those, I had brand 2 new tires up front vs. fairly worn ones the previous weekend so I'm still not sure what to make of it to this day.
I would also look into really wide wheels. If you're gonna run 10.5" slicks might as well go for a 15X10 weld wheel. Maximum contact patch.
12-23-2005, 05:03 PM
#4
Matt I have progessed a little since then, this is what I used this year.
They are at full extension and do NOT compress (well maybe a little). Some dude down the street is looking for his boat trailer rollers though.
Not recommended for street use.
They are at full extension and do NOT compress (well maybe a little). Some dude down the street is looking for his boat trailer rollers though.
Not recommended for street use.
12-23-2005, 07:06 PM
#6
Gotta love that! I'm not at that point just yet. I might do that once I get going a bit faster and I need a better suspension. But right now, I don't see my slicks breaking traction for quite some time. Probably not until I start seeing 12s.
12-23-2005, 10:08 PM
#7
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I've said it before and I'll say it again; 60' = Tire size.
The only condition is power. And Mardi's car has a SH*Tload to spare. Whenever 2wd drag racers need more traction (provided the HP is there to handle it), they up the tire size.
Also, height > width
...at least from what I have read. Don't kill me.
So if hot 26X10.5 slicks on a wide wheel don't cut it, there's always 27x10.5.
The only condition is power. And Mardi's car has a SH*Tload to spare. Whenever 2wd drag racers need more traction (provided the HP is there to handle it), they up the tire size.
Also, height > width
...at least from what I have read. Don't kill me.
So if hot 26X10.5 slicks on a wide wheel don't cut it, there's always 27x10.5.
12-24-2005, 05:56 AM
#9
Originally Posted by Jime
Matt I have progessed a little since then, this is what I used this year.
They are at full extension and do NOT compress (well maybe a little). Some dude down the street is looking for his boat trailer rollers though.
Not recommended for street use.
They are at full extension and do NOT compress (well maybe a little). Some dude down the street is looking for his boat trailer rollers though.
Not recommended for street use.
Would you drive 10 miles to the track with those on?
12-24-2005, 07:15 AM
#10
Originally Posted by MardiGrasMax
thats a great idea! Thanks. Leme now look for a boat trailer on the street
Would you drive 10 miles to the track with those on?
Would you drive 10 miles to the track with those on?
My motor mounts are even stiffer, Flexane 94, haven't got the engine back in yet but I assume its going to vibrate a bit.
12-24-2005, 08:42 AM
#11
I thought those boat rollers were what Jclaw did as well? That's what I was thinking he did to the rear springs this whole time anyways, and what I was planning on doing also when the time comes.
12-24-2005, 12:53 PM
#12
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Originally Posted by Jime
I agree to a point but I don't think you have to go to that extent. I know guys who are running 10's on 24x8's. I'm sticking with my 22's.
12-24-2005, 12:54 PM
#13
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Originally Posted by Nealoc187
I thought those boat rollers were what Jclaw did as well? That's what I was thinking he did to the rear springs this whole time anyways, and what I was planning on doing also when the time comes.
12-24-2005, 12:55 PM
#14
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Originally Posted by Jime
I don't think so, the return road is bad enough. I think I had to drill out the center a bit to fit over the shaft but the length was perfect.
12-25-2005, 06:00 PM
#15
Originally Posted by JClaw
Of course power compensates after the launch. But what 60' are they pulling? 24-24.5 slicks they can't be pulling much better than 1.6's, right?
I wouldn't try riding them on the highway especially in PQ. Just like riding on steel wheels.
12-25-2005, 06:56 PM
#16
Jim, what is the length of the rollers? Are their metal inserts in them? Do you not run springs at all? Could you cut them in 1/2 or 2/3 height and run springs ant they become really tall bump stops?
12-25-2005, 08:15 PM
#17
What I think im going to do is cut a slit in them so they can slip around the strut, and then cut them up into like 1" (or whatever size close to that which works) lengths so I can just stick them in between the coils with the car jacked up. That way I don't have take apart the suspension to install them. Just stack them up like poker chips on the strut.
12-26-2005, 08:44 AM
#18
Originally Posted by Nealoc187
What I think im going to do is cut a slit in them so they can slip around the strut, and then cut them up into like 1" (or whatever size close to that which works) lengths so I can just stick them in between the coils with the car jacked up. That way I don't have take apart the suspension to install them. Just stack them up like poker chips on the strut.
You can MAYBE use hard plastic pieces, cut them the long ways in half and stack them. But I kinda down zip ties will hold the half 1" pieces together during a launch.
12-26-2005, 08:59 AM
#19
if you try to install them on a regular suspension you will have the bump stop and boot and other bushings in the way. just get some blown struts and mounts, put on the rollers, and switch them around. if you dont have the back seat in, you could do the swap in about 35 minutes.
12-26-2005, 11:31 AM
#20
Originally Posted by Aaron92SE
That sounds like you are on to something. But how can you cut a slit in them and slip them around the strut if they are HARD plastic. Maybe you are thinking of using something that's softer.
You can MAYBE use hard plastic pieces, cut them the long ways in half and stack them. But I kinda down zip ties will hold the half 1" pieces together during a launch.
You can MAYBE use hard plastic pieces, cut them the long ways in half and stack them. But I kinda down zip ties will hold the half 1" pieces together during a launch.
If you cut them right you can flex them a little bit, enough to go around a 1/2" thick strut rod. Maybe I'd have to cut a section out of them, something like 1/4" or so to make it easier. It's not like they are made of steel, they do flex some, I've got some in the garage and on my boat trailer.
12-26-2005, 11:35 AM
#21
Originally Posted by JSutter
if you try to install them on a regular suspension you will have the bump stop and boot and other bushings in the way. just get some blown struts and mounts, put on the rollers, and switch them around. if you dont have the back seat in, you could do the swap in about 35 minutes.
I could, but I'm trying to avoid having to swap the rear suspension out. When my car is working I am at the track far too often to spend a half hour swapping the rear suspension out of the car once or twice a week. I've done it before (swapped out the rears in about a half hour) but I see no reason why I can't get the boat rollers or some other similar design to work. Bumpstops are not a problem, being as they work on the same principle as this but are obviously much smaller so that your suspension can actually move, these could be put between the bumpstop and strut housing. I don't have the dust boots on my car so those won't be an issue, especially if I end up with K-sports or D2s or Teins.
12-26-2005, 11:35 AM
#22
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The SRT4 guys use GTO spring blocks in the rears. They come on GTOs for delivery purposes and when the dealer preps the car, they throw them out. Pontiac dealers will probably give them to you. Might want to try that out.
Next, lower the front a bit and raise the back to combat weight transfer. If you have adjustable shocks, try full stiff in the rear. In a FWD car, weight transfer is the enemy. I've also heard of SRT4 guys disconnecting the front sway bar. This is a common drag strip prep procedure for RWD guys and it works. Don't know how well it works in a FWD car.
Next, lower the front a bit and raise the back to combat weight transfer. If you have adjustable shocks, try full stiff in the rear. In a FWD car, weight transfer is the enemy. I've also heard of SRT4 guys disconnecting the front sway bar. This is a common drag strip prep procedure for RWD guys and it works. Don't know how well it works in a FWD car.
12-27-2005, 10:54 AM
#23
Originally Posted by MardiGrasMax
Jim, what is the length of the rollers? Are their metal inserts in them? Do you not run springs at all? Could you cut them in 1/2 or 2/3 height and run springs ant they become really tall bump stops?
You could cut them like you suggested but then the rear would still drop off the line (much less of course) and thats what I am trying to prevent.
Originally Posted by Neal
If you cut them right you can flex them a little bit, enough to go around a 1/2" thick strut rod. Maybe I'd have to cut a section out of them, something like 1/4" or so to make it easier. It's not like they are made of steel, they do flex some, I've got some in the garage and on my boat trailer.
PS I can change these rear struts in less than 10 mins because I already swap the rear wheels at the track so its no big deal, especially when the nuts come off easily because of all the use. My car goes from road to track ready in max 20 mins, thats 4 wheels, intake, struts and headlight. I am usually first in the tech lineup.
12-27-2005, 01:03 PM
#24
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Originally Posted by Jime
PS I can change these rear struts in less than 10 mins because I already swap the rear wheels at the track so its no big deal, especially when the nuts come off easily because of all the use. My car goes from road to track ready in max 20 mins, thats 4 wheels, intake, struts and headlight. I am usually first in the tech lineup.
Did you work for Nascar in another life?
12-27-2005, 01:22 PM
#26
Originally Posted by MAX2000JP
if you have adjustable shocks, try full stiff in the rear. In a FWD car, weight transfer is the enemy.
12-27-2005, 03:08 PM
#28
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Originally Posted by BEJAY1
Wouldn't you want full stiff in the front as well? Most single adjustable shocks change rebound much more than compression. Stiffening the fronts would resist lifting at launch.
10-24-2007, 07:38 PM
#29
First off, let me apologize for bumping such an old thread. But all the good stuff is in the past. 
Recently, I yanked the old struts off my parts car and got some boat rollers in order to use them for my drag setup to keep the rear end from dropping.
I can fit some 7" boat rollers in there and that would max out the strut piston. But I'd figure I'd try the 5" rollers first to see how the ride is. I will remove the spring and the bump stop.
I don't expect Jime to reply, but I'm curious how dangerous locking the rear struts could be at 100+mph with rear skinnies.
In the next few days, I am going to test it out on the streets and see how it feels. According to Jim, it's going to be rough! I'll try to hit a small bump in the road at 45mph to see how safe it feels.
I've read an idea that you can get a bunch of old bump stops and stack them up on the strut while keeping the stock springs in place. It should stiffen it a lot better than simply using coil spring boosters.
Any input or suggestions? I need to see 1.7 60's this winter!
Recently, I yanked the old struts off my parts car and got some boat rollers in order to use them for my drag setup to keep the rear end from dropping.
I can fit some 7" boat rollers in there and that would max out the strut piston. But I'd figure I'd try the 5" rollers first to see how the ride is. I will remove the spring and the bump stop.
I don't expect Jime to reply, but I'm curious how dangerous locking the rear struts could be at 100+mph with rear skinnies.
In the next few days, I am going to test it out on the streets and see how it feels. According to Jim, it's going to be rough!
I'll try to hit a small bump in the road at 45mph to see how safe it feels.I've read an idea that you can get a bunch of old bump stops and stack them up on the strut while keeping the stock springs in place. It should stiffen it a lot better than simply using coil spring boosters.
Any input or suggestions? I need to see 1.7 60's this winter!
10-24-2007, 08:09 PM
#30
Im thinking out loud:
Imagine running your stock springs (or brand X drop spring) with ground control coilovers inside the regular spring. For street use, lower the collar so you ride on only the regular spring. When you go to the track, raise the collar so the high rate linear G/C spring is taking over. This way you can run what ever rate you like. Maybe you could even substitute the spring for a metal cylinder ie: pipe/fence post.
Imagine running your stock springs (or brand X drop spring) with ground control coilovers inside the regular spring. For street use, lower the collar so you ride on only the regular spring. When you go to the track, raise the collar so the high rate linear G/C spring is taking over. This way you can run what ever rate you like. Maybe you could even substitute the spring for a metal cylinder ie: pipe/fence post.
10-24-2007, 08:26 PM
#31
Im thinking out loud:
Imagine running your stock springs (or brand X drop spring) with ground control coilovers inside the regular spring. For street use, lower the collar so you ride on only the regular spring. When you go to the track, raise the collar so the high rate linear G/C spring is taking over. This way you can run what ever rate you like. Maybe you could even substitute the spring for a metal cylinder ie: pipe/fence post.
Imagine running your stock springs (or brand X drop spring) with ground control coilovers inside the regular spring. For street use, lower the collar so you ride on only the regular spring. When you go to the track, raise the collar so the high rate linear G/C spring is taking over. This way you can run what ever rate you like. Maybe you could even substitute the spring for a metal cylinder ie: pipe/fence post.
Your tail is up, there is no monkey-motion or tail-squatting, it still rides decently, and it's easy to reverse if you want lowered again. And it's cheap.
In a straight line, you don't need magic spring rates - heck, you don't want anything to move back there. I have Tokico Illuminas struts/springs front and rear, for 3+ years now, and I've left the rubber spacers (four in each spring) installed for two years now. Never take them out - not even on 1000-mile trips...
PS - I think I larned this from Jclaw - those crafty Canadians again....
Last edited by grey99max; 10-24-2007 at 08:32 PM.
10-24-2007, 08:32 PM
#32
I am looking for a way to lock the rear suspension in a somewhat safe manner.
I have run rear coil spring blocks for several years now. The rear still drops. Now that I'm pushing a lot more power, I'm looking to improve my suspension further.
The rubber coil spring blocks only help a little. I am looking to jack the rear of the car up by about 3-6 inches. I've seen several FWD drag cars with this setup, I just don't know if they put a steel pipe or plastic boat roller in place of the springs.
I like the boat roller idea Jime introduced to this forum. I just wanted to spark some discussion about it.
I have run rear coil spring blocks for several years now. The rear still drops. Now that I'm pushing a lot more power, I'm looking to improve my suspension further.
The rubber coil spring blocks only help a little. I am looking to jack the rear of the car up by about 3-6 inches. I've seen several FWD drag cars with this setup, I just don't know if they put a steel pipe or plastic boat roller in place of the springs.
I like the boat roller idea Jime introduced to this forum. I just wanted to spark some discussion about it.
10-24-2007, 08:37 PM
#33
I am looking for a way to lock the rear suspension in a somewhat safe manner.
I have run rear coil spring blocks for several years now. The rear still drops. Now that I'm pushing a lot more power, I'm looking to improve my suspension further.
The rubber coil spring blocks only help a little. I am looking to jack the rear of the car up by about 3-6 inches. I've seen several FWD drag cars with this setup, I just don't know if they put a steel pipe or plastic boat roller in place of the springs.
I like the boat roller idea Jime introduced to this forum. I just wanted to spark some discussion about it.
I have run rear coil spring blocks for several years now. The rear still drops. Now that I'm pushing a lot more power, I'm looking to improve my suspension further.
The rubber coil spring blocks only help a little. I am looking to jack the rear of the car up by about 3-6 inches. I've seen several FWD drag cars with this setup, I just don't know if they put a steel pipe or plastic boat roller in place of the springs.
I like the boat roller idea Jime introduced to this forum. I just wanted to spark some discussion about it.
10-24-2007, 08:49 PM
#34
There was a pretty quick Dodge Shadow that I use to bracket race with. His wheel gap on the front was about 1 inch. His rear wheel gap was probably about 10-12 inches.
The blocks that I have in there now are the tallest ones I could fit in the coils with the car jacked up. I barely was able to wedge them in place. I have probably put about 50K miles on the street with these blocks. The drivability is pretty decent and it does make a difference at the track. But I'm just shooting for a stiffer track suspension.
Airbags are probably going to be the best setup for safety and stiffness. Airbags technology has come a long ways in the racing world.
10-24-2007, 10:14 PM
#35
Are you planning on driving around all the time with the rear of your car jacked up in the air? Do you even daily drive that car any more? More height in the rear will without question improve front wheel traction.
btw not sure what the story is on the wheels yet, I'll let you know
btw not sure what the story is on the wheels yet, I'll let you know
10-25-2007, 07:13 AM
#36
I was looking at some for the rear of my Frontier, to help with the weight of the trailer, and found several kits of add-on airbags designed to go between the axle and the frame. You don't have to buy the entire compressor-regulator package , just the airbags and blow them up when needed. Good photos in Jeg's and Summit catalogs...
10-25-2007, 07:38 AM
#37
I think the front is more important than the rear. If the front doesn't come up then the weight transfer is minimized and the rear won't compress. Currently I just use coilovers on the rear set to their stiffest setting.
My front is held down with aircraft cable from the top of the strut to the bottom, set so they have no slack, however next year I am going to try some 2"x24" axle straps,10,000 lb capacity that I found on sale for $4.99. My race setup is the same as my street setup, all I do now at the track is mount the slicks.
Here is a site with some FWD tips. http://www.thedodgegarage.com/http:/...dgegarage.com/
Also I have been plagued with uneven wear on my slicks from day one which isn't helping my traction so I am going to change the camber by a couple of degrees for next year as well. I am just going the cheapie route using bolts.
My front is held down with aircraft cable from the top of the strut to the bottom, set so they have no slack, however next year I am going to try some 2"x24" axle straps,10,000 lb capacity that I found on sale for $4.99. My race setup is the same as my street setup, all I do now at the track is mount the slicks.
Here is a site with some FWD tips. http://www.thedodgegarage.com/http:/...dgegarage.com/
Also I have been plagued with uneven wear on my slicks from day one which isn't helping my traction so I am going to change the camber by a couple of degrees for next year as well. I am just going the cheapie route using bolts.
Last edited by Jime; 10-25-2007 at 07:50 AM.
10-25-2007, 08:04 AM
#38
Are you planning on driving around all the time with the rear of your car jacked up in the air? Do you even daily drive that car any more? More height in the rear will without question improve front wheel traction.
btw not sure what the story is on the wheels yet, I'll let you know
btw not sure what the story is on the wheels yet, I'll let you know
Yes, I still drive my car daily. Just on track day, I remove my dash, door panels, bumper supports, and other stuff. As soon as I get back from the track, the bumper supports go back on immediately.
Thanks for the update on the wheels.
Originally Posted by grey99max
I was looking at some for the rear of my Frontier, to help with the weight of the trailer, and found several kits of add-on airbags designed to go between the axle and the frame. You don't have to buy the entire compressor-regulator package , just the airbags and blow them up when needed. Good photos in Jeg's and Summit catalogs...
Originally Posted by Jime
I think the front is more important than the rear. If the front doesn't come up then the weight transfer is minimized and the rear won't compress. Currently I just use coilovers on the rear set to their stiffest setting.
My front is held down with aircraft cable from the top of the strut to the bottom, set so they have no slack, however next year I am going to try some 2"x24" axle straps,10,000 lb capacity that I found on sale for $4.99. My race setup is the same as my street setup, all I do now at the track is mount the slicks.
My front is held down with aircraft cable from the top of the strut to the bottom, set so they have no slack, however next year I am going to try some 2"x24" axle straps,10,000 lb capacity that I found on sale for $4.99. My race setup is the same as my street setup, all I do now at the track is mount the slicks.
For the fronts, I have some 24" 175lb plastic zip ties you get from your local home improvement store. They hold up pretty well, but when you wrap them around the coils, they tend to bunch together over time.
You say you have aircraft cable? Do you wrap them around the coils or did you find a way to secure the top and bottom of the strut perches? There is probably some kind of clamp that you used to secure the cable together?
The only way I can think of securing the top and bottom of the strut perches is to drill a few tiny holes in the perch to put the cable through. Is this what you had to do?
How do you plan on routing the axle strap to hold the front down? Why would this be better than aircraft cable? Is this what you have in mind?
Information coming from a person that has pulled countless of 1.7s is priceless. Thanks Jim. Are you typing with more than one finger now?
10-25-2007, 08:11 AM
#39
Here is a site with some FWD tips. http://www.thedodgegarage.com/
Also I have been plagued with uneven wear on my slicks from day one which isn't helping my traction so I am going to change the camber by a couple of degrees for next year as well. I am just going the cheapie route using bolts.
Also I have been plagued with uneven wear on my slicks from day one which isn't helping my traction so I am going to change the camber by a couple of degrees for next year as well. I am just going the cheapie route using bolts.
Do you have bad wear on your street tires? I am always paying attention to my alignment on the street. My tires are wearing perfectly right now. So are my slicks, but I don't race nearly as much as you.
There is one thing you can do to fix bad camber issues instead of using those tiny camber bolts that tend to work lose. I was at an old school alignment shop. I heard them drilling on my car. So I left the waiting room to see why they were making me so nervous. They were drilling one hole out of the strut housing to enlarge it slightly. The result is they were able to get a few extra degrees of adjustment by slightly enlarging the hole. You can use to the stock bolts too. It's a pretty good idea I think.
10-25-2007, 08:43 AM
#40
Thanks for replying. It's nice to know you are making progress!
For the fronts, I have some 24" 175lb plastic zip ties you get from your local home improvement store. They hold up pretty well, but when you wrap them around the coils, they tend to bunch together over time.
You say you have aircraft cable? Do you wrap them around the coils or did you find a way to secure the top and bottom of the strut perches? There is probably some kind of clamp that you used to secure the cable together?
The only way I can think of securing the top and bottom of the strut perches is to drill a few tiny holes in the perch to put the cable through. Is this what you had to do?
How do you plan on routing the axle strap to hold the front down? Why would this be better than aircraft cable? Is this what you have in mind?
Do you have bad wear on your street tires? I am always paying attention to my alignment on the street. My tires are wearing perfectly right now. So are my slicks, but I don't race nearly as much as you.
There is one thing you can do to fix bad camber issues instead of using those tiny camber bolts that tend to work lose. I was at an old school alignment shop. I heard them drilling on my car. So I left the waiting room to see why they were making me so nervous. They were drilling one hole out of the strut housing to enlarge it slightly. The result is they were able to get a few extra degrees of adjustment by slightly enlarging the hole. You can use to the stock bolts too. It's a pretty good idea I thin
My street tires wear fine its just the slicks. Thanks for the tip on making the hole larger, seems like a better idea than smaller bolts.
PS I am coming along great, been out of the hospital for over a month and doing outpatient rehab 3 days a week. Started riding my bicycle last week but the hands are still a long way off. Still typing with 2 fingers. I am walking by myself but still unsteady, however I'm not complaining the Dr's all think I am a walking talking miracle and that I will come back 100%.