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2003 Nissan Maxima SE - Majectic Blue 6MT HLSD Meridan Edition, Titanium Editon-Dynoed 206.61whp and 219.54wtq...Stock 17 Degree Timing Advance*Apexi/Berk Short Ram Intake*Cattspeed Y-pipe*Cattman 2.5 B-Pipe*HKS Sport Exhaust*Cattman Ti FSTB*Progress RSB*ES Poly Front Sway Bar Bushings*HKS Grounding kit*Axxtion STS
I'm not saying that the GTR still wouldn't have won, but.....as usual, Japanese manufacturer takes an edge by a tire advantage:
GTR Tires: Dunlop Sport 600 - as you can see by the tread design and super-heavy shoulder, this tire is designed for track days etc...Supposedly designed specifically for the GTR (??)
Porsche tires: Michelin Pilot PS2 - a tire essentially for high-speed highway driving with comfort. Not remotely resembling a track tire
Z06 tires: Goodyear F1 Supercar - again, a high-performance summer road tire, clearly not made for track use.
Reminds me of the test a year or two ago of the 911 vs. R34 vs. Evo vs. Vette, where the Porsche and Vette were on factory rubber and the R34 and Evo were on r-comps, and everyone ws amazed the evo hung with the 911 and R34 before they saw that it had WAAAYY better tires for the track.
Tires make a massive difference on the track, and track times are INVALID unless the cars are all on the same tires.
Run what ya brung, ESPECIALLY if the tires in question are factory fare. The value equation includes tires, does it not?
True, but look around this place. Almost nobody runs stock tires. Tires are a variable. everyone using the same tires truly tells which is the better car, not which tires are best.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nismology
There are slower cars that look better than the 911 and Z06, but what's the point?
There are cars slower than a 911 that look better?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff92se
Gotta love the 5 sec tire excuse
example: gdmaxse and I autocrosed agains each other for years, both in a street tire class. Almost every event I was 1 second faster than him. Last season he switched to r-comps (I was still on street tires). Otherwise no other changes. He started beating me by 3-4 seconds every time....and that was only on a 50-second autocross course.
Tires are worth a HELL of alot more than 5 seconds on a full roadcourse....
__________________ Sold: 2000 Maxima SE - PR Intake - Frankencar CB - Truax SFCs - Wilwoods - Eibachs - Blehm LTB - Cattman Ypipe
Stillen RSB - RSTB - FSTB - ES Bushes - G wheels - Raxles - Mach1 lip - Illuminas - and plenty more
True, but look around this place. Almost nobody runs stock tires. Tires are a variable. everyone using the same tires truly tells which is the better car, not which tires are best.
Everything is a variable. Why not test cars as they come off the factory line? That tells us what the better package is. Once you go aftermarket on ANY component, all bets are off.
E.g. You get aftermarket tires, so can I get aftermarket suspension/brakes?
Quote:
There are cars slower than a 911 that look better?
R8? Gallardo?
Quote:
example: gdmaxse and I autocrosed agains each other for years, both in a street tire class. Almost every event I was 1 second faster than him. Last season he switched to r-comps (I was still on street tires). Otherwise no other changes. He started beating me by 3-4 seconds every time....and that was only on a 50-second autocross course.
Tires are worth a HELL of alot more than 5 seconds on a full roadcourse....
But the curb weights were similar correct? I see your point, but it's still apples and oranges. The GT-R is 3800+ pounds and wears modest 255/285 front/rear tire widths. If it was 3200 lbs and wore 275/325 width tires like the vette I'd be right with you.
__________________
Tuning a car isn't a crime, but spelling it "tunning" ought to be. - ....
Everything is a variable. Why not test cars as they come off the factory line? That tells us what the better package is. Once you go aftermarket on ANY component, all bets are off.
E.g. You get aftermarket tires, so can I get aftermarket suspension/brakes?
in a track atmosphere/time trials, tires make 10x the difference of any suspension or engine upgrade, especially with cars like these that already have "the best" suspensions and engines from the get-go.
Like I said, for the track testing, they should use track tires. People who buy these cars and run them on the track don't use the factory tires.....I've seen alot of Porsches at the track, and I've never seen one running on Michelin Pilots, that's for sure.
For the street testing/comfort/sound levels/etc they should use the factory tires that most people will use on the street.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nismology
R8? Gallardo?
meh...I wouldn't agree with either of those, but it's subjective...
Quote:
Originally Posted by nismology
But the curb weights were similar correct? I see your point, but it's still apples and oranges. The GT-R is 3800+ pounds and wears modest 255/285 front/rear tire widths. If it was 3200 lbs and wore 275/325 width tires like the vette I'd be right with you.
but then you go into the reason the vette weighs less....no AWD
and of course in the head-to-head they kept on dogging the Z06 for its lack of handling in the corners, which is directly attributable to the fact that it doesnt have AWD like the other two cars do. AWD cars are typically better when powering through hot corners, that's just the way it is...
Run what ya brung. Plain and simple. If you start changing crap just because it's on the track, you'll end up with dedicated track whore that's no longer representing the production car. Change tires? Fine. Where does it stop? Either oem or nothing.
The only reason they use the track is to have safe and CONSISTENT place to run the cars. You going to start advocating the use of slicks when the test the 0-60 and 1/4 times too?
but then you go into the reason the vette weighs less....no AWD
and of course in the head-to-head they kept on dogging the Z06 for its lack of handling in the corners, which is directly attributable to the fact that it doesnt have AWD like the other two cars do. AWD cars are typically better when powering through hot corners, that's just the way it is...
If only it was as simple as slapping AWD on a chassis.
They were dogging the 911 too...
__________________
Tuning a car isn't a crime, but spelling it "tunning" ought to be. - ....
in a track atmosphere/time trials, tires make 10x the difference of any suspension or engine upgrade, especially with cars like these that already have "the best" suspensions and engines from the get-go.
Like I said, for the track testing, they should use track tires. People who buy these cars and run them on the track don't use the factory tires.....I've seen alot of Porsches at the track, and I've never seen one running on Michelin Pilots, that's for sure.
For the street testing/comfort/sound levels/etc they should use the factory tires that most people will use on the street.
meh...I wouldn't agree with either of those, but it's subjective...
but then you go into the reason the vette weighs less....no AWD
and of course in the head-to-head they kept on dogging the Z06 for its lack of handling in the corners, which is directly attributable to the fact that it doesnt have AWD like the other two cars do. AWD cars are typically better when powering through hot corners, that's just the way it is...
I can respect what your trying to do here. Your trying to discredit the achievement but your arguement is rather silly considering the car is the least expensive and by your own admission offfers the best equipment for track driving. Also consider Nissan is marketing this car as a very usable car in all weather conditions. I am sure the owners of 911's and Z06's can acquire whatever tires they like. The fact of the matter is the GTR was 5 secs faster that must be one hell of a tire.
__________________
2003 Nissan Maxima SE - Majectic Blue 6MT HLSD Meridan Edition, Titanium Editon-Dynoed 206.61whp and 219.54wtq...Stock 17 Degree Timing Advance*Apexi/Berk Short Ram Intake*Cattspeed Y-pipe*Cattman 2.5 B-Pipe*HKS Sport Exhaust*Cattman Ti FSTB*Progress RSB*ES Poly Front Sway Bar Bushings*HKS Grounding kit*Axxtion STS
Run what ya brung. Plain and simple. If you start changing crap just because it's on the track, you'll end up with dedicated track whore that's no longer representing the production car. Change tires? Fine. Where does it stop? Either oem or nothing.
The only reason they use the track is to have safe and CONSISTENT place to run the cars. You going to start advocating the use of slicks when the test the 0-60 and 1/4 times too?
who is to say that all of these cars could have different factory tires available? I know the GT-R will be available with at least 2 different tires from the factory. I know the Porsche IS available with 3-4 different tires from the factory.
What it Porsche said "oh, the Pilot Sport Cup is a factory option, so test using that one" (the Pilot Sport Cup is a DOT-legal R-comp track tire)..wouldn't that skew the testing?
All I'm saying is that a tire is easily changed, particularly between variants of a model. The 2000 Maxima came from the factory with 2 or 3 different tires, and they aren't all equal. And tires change throughout the production run of a car, even during the same model year, whereas suspension parts generally don't.
that, and the tire isn't MADE by Nissan, Porsche, Chevrolet - so how good the tire is has nothing to do with how good the car was designed.
My opinion: Yes, for the sake of statistical testing, it would be best to test all cars with the same tire, so that everyone will know which CAR is the best, not which car happens to have the best tires on it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nismology
If only it was as simple as slapping AWD on a chassis.
Subaru and Audi manage to do it
Quote:
Originally Posted by nismology
Gross oversimplification.
obviously, but the fact remains that AWD systems add additional weight vs. a 2WD system on the same car....The Z06 obviously has other weight-saving design features as well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Batxel
Looks like the GTR is living up to the hype.
Remains to be seen.....let's wait until they've been in production for a couple years and then see how they are vs. other cars....Until a bunch of people have put 50k miles on a GT-R, it will still just be hype.
__________________ Sold: 2000 Maxima SE - PR Intake - Frankencar CB - Truax SFCs - Wilwoods - Eibachs - Blehm LTB - Cattman Ypipe
Stillen RSB - RSTB - FSTB - ES Bushes - G wheels - Raxles - Mach1 lip - Illuminas - and plenty more
I can respect what your trying to do here. Your trying to discredit the achievement but your arguement is rather silly considering the car is the least expensive and by your own admission offfers the best equipment for track driving. Also consider Nissan is marketing this car as a very usable car in all weather conditions. I am sure the owners of 911's and Z06's can acquire whatever tires they like. The fact of the matter is the GTR was 5 secs faster that must be one hell of a tire.
I'm not arguing cost at all....that's irrelevant. In the 'ratings' by R&T the GTR already gets extra points for the lowest cost (and the Porsche loses points for highest cost), so you can't use that as an argument.
And since you clearly know nothing about track driving, I'll say again that 5 seconds is only a small measure of the difference a tire can make on lap times. Put r-comps on the Porsche, it would be 5 seconds faster than the GTR on stockers. Put track slicks on the GTR, and it would be 5 seconds faster than the Porsche on r-comps, and so on. Tires matter, plain and simple.
Nissan is marketing the car as a "very usable car in all weather conditions?" Please. If that was the case it would have all-season tires standard. Instead, as I pointed out above, the tires it comes with are street-legal track tires, essentially. Try taking them in a light snowfall and all the AWD in the world won't get you anyplace. Same goes for the Porsce and Z06, for that matter.
Btw, I never said the GT-R was the best equipped for track driving. They're prbably all equally good track cars, depending onthe track and the driver. I simply said that the GTR in the test had the best tires of the three for track driving.
__________________ Sold: 2000 Maxima SE - PR Intake - Frankencar CB - Truax SFCs - Wilwoods - Eibachs - Blehm LTB - Cattman Ypipe
Stillen RSB - RSTB - FSTB - ES Bushes - G wheels - Raxles - Mach1 lip - Illuminas - and plenty more
__________________
2003 Nissan Maxima SE - Majectic Blue 6MT HLSD Meridan Edition, Titanium Editon-Dynoed 206.61whp and 219.54wtq...Stock 17 Degree Timing Advance*Apexi/Berk Short Ram Intake*Cattspeed Y-pipe*Cattman 2.5 B-Pipe*HKS Sport Exhaust*Cattman Ti FSTB*Progress RSB*ES Poly Front Sway Bar Bushings*HKS Grounding kit*Axxtion STS
btw, I'm not discrediting anything. even if the GTR were 2 seconds SLOWER than the 911 and Z06, that would still be a monster accomplishment and worth "mad props" to Nissan. The 911 and Z06 are, and have been for years, benchmarks for streetable performance cars, so anything close (over or under) their performance is impressive.
How many here are still rolling on their stock Potenza RE92's or Turanzas that came on their Maxima? Yeah....not many.
Uh....the answer would be "yes," the if the tires contributed to a 5 second lap time advantage, they also contributed to a higher average speed, BY DEFINITION.
I'm not saying that they definitely DID make up the whole difference, I'm just saying I'd like to see the three cars all on the same rubber.
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Theoretical:
- you're a track star who can run a 4.2/40
- you're walking down the street one day wearing cargo pants and steel-toe work boots
- you run into a buddy, who only runs a 4.4/40. He is wearing shorts and running shoes.
- he challeneges you to a footrace for $100.
you say "man I would, but I'm wearing these steeltoe boots and you have running shoes on."
he says "well you gotta run with what you have on"
I'm betting you'd say "no thanks" to the bet, since you'd almost certainly lose.
Shoes do make a difference. Tires are a car's shoes.
I think it was Millen. Here is a better theory for you. Nissan bribed Steve Millen to hold back when driving the Z06 and 911 so the GTR would post better times.
__________________
2003 Nissan Maxima SE - Majectic Blue 6MT HLSD Meridan Edition, Titanium Editon-Dynoed 206.61whp and 219.54wtq...Stock 17 Degree Timing Advance*Apexi/Berk Short Ram Intake*Cattspeed Y-pipe*Cattman 2.5 B-Pipe*HKS Sport Exhaust*Cattman Ti FSTB*Progress RSB*ES Poly Front Sway Bar Bushings*HKS Grounding kit*Axxtion STS
I do love coming into the GTR threads and getting you all up in arms
The GTR may be a much better performer than any car on the planet. I just think it's ugly, so i would never buy one. I have no doubt it's an awesome performer, but you guys get so fired up about it, I just have to argue against you for fun .
I think it was Millen. Here is a better theory for you. Nissan bribed Steve Millen to hold back when driving the Z06 and 911 so the GTR would post better times.
I'm not throwing out conspiracy theories, I'm simply stating FACTS about tires. And since I actually:
1. autocross
2. have driven track events and
3. crew for an enduro racing team occasionally,
I happen to know just a LITTLE BIT about what tires do for you on a track....
as to Millen...I have no doubt that he drove every car to the max, though who is to say which type of car (FR, AR, AF) he drives best. He might be most comfortable in the Z06 for all we know....
Travis Patrana drives an AWD rally car better than he drives a F1 car, probable, and Ricky Rudd drives a stock car better than a rally car, probably.
Want to take the driver factor out as well? Do the tests with 3 different drivers with diferent backgrounds, and take the averages....
__________________ Sold: 2000 Maxima SE - PR Intake - Frankencar CB - Truax SFCs - Wilwoods - Eibachs - Blehm LTB - Cattman Ypipe
Stillen RSB - RSTB - FSTB - ES Bushes - G wheels - Raxles - Mach1 lip - Illuminas - and plenty more
I'm not throwing out conspiracy theories, I'm simply stating FACTS about tires. And since I actually:
1. autocross
2. have driven track events and
3. crew for an enduro racing team occasionally,
I happen to know just a LITTLE BIT about what tires do for you on a track....
as to Millen...I have no doubt that he drove every car to the max, though who is to say which type of car (FR, AR, AF) he drives best. He might be most comfortable in the Z06 for all we know....
Travis Patrana drives an AWD rally car better than he drives a F1 car, probable, and Ricky Rudd drives a stock car better than a rally car, probably.
Want to take the driver factor out as well? Do the tests with 3 different drivers with diferent backgrounds, and take the averages....
I think Millen would probably feel at home mostly with the z06 since he did pilot the 300zx team to championships when he was a factory driver for Nissan. I think it was cool to see Steve Millen come out and not Drifto Millen aka Rhys ....
In regards to tires, you should try to take a car out on a "high performance street tire" and then take it out on a "track-bred" R-comp- The difference is absolutely tremendous. I got to take a Race-prepped Mazda sedan on R-comps out at Texas Motorsports ranch and was running door to door with a 911 on street tires.....So yes tires do make a difference...
It would have been cool to see them all on the same tires, would have made for a very nice road course session. I have no doubt that the 911 and GT-R would have wiped the track with the z06, but not by that much
also the track layout has alot to do with which car is faster. on other tracks a z06 manages to straight rape a 911tt but on this track and on this day a 911tt was faster.
the z06 and the 911 have always been on some of the worlds worst rubber so that alone is enough to limit what they can do compared to cars that have more track based tires on them. i can only imagine how a lotus would handle on all season tires or even a street based summer tire. also when the zr-1 comes out the z06 will have that tire type as an option and that alone should help in its lap times. i would imagine a 911tt on what ever rubber a gt3/gt2 runs might be alot quicker.
the gt-r was fast but i am sure on other tracks the difference might not be so large, and the z06 would have beaten the porsche.
Apparently it's the GT-R's fault GM and Porsche (a marque that SHOULD know about tires) they can't pick the "right" tire. Handicapping themselves on purpose ftw
The 911TT has never been meant to be a track car. But it can be made into an effective weapon on the track. Porsche aids the driver towards having a properly setup track tool with a few options. These options would include 1) locking rear differential 2) ceramic brakes 3) soft tires 4) sports chrono package which includes OVERBOOST feature 5) aero package 6) no sunroof - increasing structural rigidity; just to name a few. With the proper factory alignment specs, a 911TT with these options can hang on the track with a GT3, although the two cars will differ in feel and power delivery. I highly doubt this particular test vehicle had the "right track options" to be competitive with the GTR- which obviously puts out more horsepower than the factory numbers and comes equipped with superb tires.
Sorry, but I don't debate attention whores with rampant delusions of intellectual ability. If you have any point whatsoever, I'm sure someone else better equipped for actual debate will pick it up. I'll be happy to discuss it then.
I think it was Millen. Here is a better theory for you. Nissan bribed Steve Millen to hold back when driving the Z06 and 911 so the GTR would post better times.
Millen states he's fairly uncomfortable with the Z06's back end swinging out and the 911's, so I could see him holding back these cars. Not to mention, Millen runs his ad in this magazine, adding to his perceived basis.
Sorry, but I don't debate attention whores with rampant delusions of intellectual ability. If you have any point whatsoever, I'm sure someone else better equipped for actual debate will pick it up. I'll be happy to discuss it then.
Apparently it's the GT-R's fault GM and Porsche (a marque that SHOULD know about tires) they can't pick the "right" tire. Handicapping themselves on purpose ftw
gm and porsche have been build sport cars in the us for decades and one key to building a good sports car is to make it street able in all types of weather as it leaves the factory. both cars might need a tire change in a serious blizzard but in long distance driving and when racking up miles as a dd you need tires that are up to the job. i wonder how those tires on the gt-r will fair in heavy rains or after 10k miles on them.
The 911TT has never been meant to be a track car. But it can be made into an effective weapon on the track. Porsche aids the driver towards having a properly setup track tool with a few options. These options would include 1) locking rear differential 2) ceramic brakes 3) soft tires 4) sports chrono package which includes OVERBOOST feature 5) aero package 6) no sunroof - increasing structural rigidity; just to name a few. With the proper factory alignment specs, a 911TT with these options can hang on the track with a GT3, although the two cars will differ in feel and power delivery. I highly doubt this particular test vehicle had the "right track options" to be competitive with the GTR- which obviously puts out more horsepower than the factory numbers and comes equipped with superb tires.
So what are you really paying for, then?
__________________
Tuning a car isn't a crime, but spelling it "tunning" ought to be. - ....
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