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1) GT-R tires are notebly thinner than either. So tire argument = null and void
2) So the GT-R isn't streetable? I didn't read any articles yet but is that the reviewers say? Link? Quote?
3) Rain? What is AWD for?
4) 10k? How long did the Acura NSX tires last? Wanna play with the big boys, you gotta pay. I wonder how the Porsche tires are after 10k. Many performance tires don't last much more than 15-20k anyway.
I mean, you aren't reduced to the "value" argument now right?
Quote:
Originally Posted by liqidvenom
gm and porsche have been build sport cars in the us for decades and one key to building a good sports car is to make it street able in all types of weather as it leaves the factory. both cars might need a tire change in a serious blizzard but in long distance driving and when racking up miles as a dd you need tires that are up to the job. i wonder how those tires on the gt-r will fair in heavy rains or after 10k miles on them.
you are paying for a great driving experience that can be capable on a track if set up properly. to be mass produced you need to be able to deliver a quiet, easy handling, livable vehicle that can produce all the thrills and hit all the key notes that someone will require from their vehicle purchase.
i would assume if the 911tt was the end all 911 for the track then there wouldnt be a gt2/gt3.
And this is the only reason the GT-R's performance was superior?
i dont think any1 has come on here and said that the gt-r isnt a great performance car. it just seems a bit odd that all the gt-r fans seem to not want to realize that the gt-r brings a serious gun to this knife fight as far as the tires are concered. power is good but the single most important thing on a race track is the tires a vehicle comes with.
I think as more reviews come in, the comparos will favor the GTR more and more. Most of the auto journalists can't drive nearly as well as Millen so that will favor the supercomputer on wheels as opposed to Porsche and the Vette.
You can talk about "feel" or "prestige" all you want, but EVERY single publication (Japanese, European, and US) has favored the GTR vs. everything.
If it quacks like a duck, and walks like a duck, its probably a duck.
you are paying for a great driving experience that can be capable on a track if set up properly. to be mass produced you need to be able to deliver a quiet, easy handling, livable vehicle that can produce all the thrills and hit all the key notes that someone will require from their vehicle purchase.
i would assume if the 911tt was the end all 911 for the track then there wouldnt be a gt2/gt3.
So 50k worth of daily livability? Pass. Surely there's something else to justify the premium.
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Tuning a car isn't a crime, but spelling it "tunning" ought to be. - ....
1) GT-R tires are notebly thinner than either. So tire argument = null and void
2) Rain? What is AWD for?
3) 10k? How long did the Acura NSX tires last? Wanna play with the big boys, you gotta pay. I wonder how the Porsche tires are after 10k. Many performance tires don't last much more than 15-20k anyway.
I mean, you aren't reduced to the "value" argument now right?
1) tire width=\= a cars ability to grip. the vette has those steam rollers in the rear mostly due to the fact that it is a rwd v8 and also it just looks badazz like that. the 911 has serious tires on it in the rear since it is rear heavy. nissan has never been known to put wide tires on anything that has come to the states.
2) you say that as if they put slicks on a awd car and took it out in the rain it would handle like a dream. your drivetrain can only do what the tires allow of it.
3) i have no idea of the length of the life of a nsx tire. but we can also see how some of that cars track bias didnt help it all when it came to being sold. it just didnt make a good dd car and that is important to people who buy sport cars. ( that isnt saying that a gt-r isnt a capable dd, anything with an auto tends to make dd a bit easier.) if you beat on a 911 or a z06 then sure their tires will wear out quickly, but if driven like it would be on the street the tires last nearly 30k miles. those hard summer tires tend to hold up very well to miles being put on them.
Tires. The Dunlop Sport 600 isn't even Dunlop highest performance tire. It's the Direzza Sport 1.
Also. All THREE of these tires are categorized under the same Max Performance Summer tire at Tirerack.
The sport 600 UTOG is 200. The other two are 220. Wow BIG difference in tire wear! Yes all UTOG ratings are diff but it's sure more evidence than a complete guess like "what happens at 10k". Indeed. What happens to ALL these tires at 10k?
So 50k worth of daily livability? Pass. Surely there's something else to justify the premium.
more capable where? on a race track? how many 911tt owners ever take their cars out onto a track that has turns?
honestly i know about 30 911tt owners many of them who own 997's ( and some 996's) and not one has touched it onto a race track aside from a get to gether at a drag strip if at all onto the actual drag stip.
at the true home of many sports cars ( ie the street/highway/open road) you are paying for a serious twin turbo vehicle over a gt3 which is slower in every respect aside from race tracks. if a 911 owner wanted a true track star he/she would opt for a gt2 and have all of the 911tt greatness geared primarily for the track.
So the 911 turbo has never been marketed as a sports car ready for the track? No race heritage sprinkled in here, there, and everywhere?? Where does all that money go toward, if not for track performance development?
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Tuning a car isn't a crime, but spelling it "tunning" ought to be. - ....
I guess the Sport 600 is SOOO much the unlivable tire, that Subaru puts them on their STI. lol
Quote:
Subaru WRX STI Rides on New Dunlop Performance Tires
AKRON, Ohio, Jan. 3 /PRNewswire/ -- A new Dunlop maximum performance
tire has been specified for the iconic 2008 Subaru Impreza WRX STI sports
car.
Powered by a 305-horsepower, 2.5-liter Subaru boxer engine, the new
performance car rides on specially designed Dunlop SP Sport 600 245/40R18
93W summer tires. In fact, every Impreza WRX STI destined for North America
rides on Dunlop performance tires.
Janice Consolacion, manager for Dunlop marketing, said the third
generation of the rally-bred supercar "is a driver's car, and it's fitting
that Dunlops are specified on Subaru's flagship. Together, we're showcasing
innovation and performance."
The asymmetric performance tire features large outside shoulder tread
elements for excellent cornering power and inboard circumferential grooves
and sweeping lateral grooves for enhanced wet traction. "Asymmetry allows
the efficiency of wet- and dry-traction elements to coexist, without
compromising the tire's other performance features," Consolacion said.
A solid center stability rib separates the wet and dry sectors and
helps enhance steering response and driver feedback. Silica-reinforced
tread compounds help increase dry and wet traction across the tread face,
she said.
In addition, Dunlop JointLess Band Technology helps maintain tire
structural stability and enables smooth performance at highway speeds, she
added.
The new SP Sport 600 tire was developed and built in Japan and "tuned"
to match the suspension of the new Subaru WRX STI, Consolacion said.
Dunlop's SP WinterSport 3D performance tire is the winter-tire option on
the new car.
The 2008 sports car also is available with optional Dunlop SP Sport 01
ultra-performance tires in 235/45R17 94W sizes.
Dunlop is a global tire brand with an excellent reputation among
performance car enthusiasts. Well known for its prestigious original-
equipment fitments and sports car racing heritage, Dunlop is also a key
supplier to sport compact enthusiasts featuring "tuner" tire sizes and race
series sponsorships.
As mentioned before, I think given the situation, the tire arguement is again null and void. If I recall, this was a factory test. As mentioned oh so many times before, bring what you were built with. What they are tryign to show is that stock to stock, Car X will perform better than car Y and Z.
Save the bantering for track test in which everyone can come with thier own weapons of choice.
Next You'll be saying, well, if the Z06 had the ZR1 engine then it would be more powerful, or if the porch had the GTR's brakes.. blah blah blah.
It was an interesting test. I do hope to see more in the future.
So the 911 turbo has never been marketed as a sports car ready for the track? No race heritage sprinkled in here, there, and everywhere?? Where does all that money go toward, if not for track performance development?
now you are just going out on a limb
it is easier to build a car dedicated to the track, it takes serious money to build a car that can work on the track also be good on the street and still get people to spend money on it.
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Slow car on 18's
Last edited by liqidvenom; 03-20-2008 at 10:00 AM.
Apparently so Kenneth can be l33t for 2 monthly payments.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nismology
So the 911 turbo has never been marketed as a sports car ready for the track? No race heritage sprinkled in here, there, and everywhere?? Where does all that money go toward, if not for track performance development?
I guess the Sport 600 is SOOO much the unlivable tire, that Subaru puts them on their STI. lol
now you are running off with extremes here...not sure who said it is SOOO much the unlivable tire.
we are talking about how certain tires are an advantage over another. just to have a balanced test they should have the cars on the same rubber. they do that for alot of there other tests such as the high speed or certain shoot outs.
thats it. i just asked how those tires would be like after 10k miles, i know how 911tt's and z06 rubber is after 10k miles. thats all jeff, if you are running off with this same crazy talk then you are going to bring down this thread.
If you would go back and read the original post I quoted it would make more sense to you.
According to Kenneth, if the 997 turbo was all optioned out it would have performed much better on the track. So my question is/was simple; if it's not track-ready with standard equipment, what are you paying for?
P.S. (for you knuckleheads that will take this the wrong way and respond with "prestige, panache, heritage blah blah) Not a knock on the 997 turbo or the Porsche brand at all. Just a knock on the excuse-making...
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Tuning a car isn't a crime, but spelling it "tunning" ought to be. - ....
What is the EXACT "advantage" of Sport 600 tire when it's THINNER than the other two by a pretty decent margin AND they are all in the exact same Max Performance Summer Tire category?????
Crazy talk? I guess putting in REAL specs and REAL logic vs "look at this tire!" or "what happens after 10k?" speculation isn't a lame attempt to try to take down the GT-R?
"After 10k" I don't know. Based on the data/tread ratings on what basis are you implying it would be any WORSE than the other two? In the end, who cares? You want a world class performance beating car? You need the tires to go with it. As does all the cars in this test.
Porsche = made for the street. Please. We all know making cars like these is about performance 1st and making it livable 2nd. There's no point in 2 if you don't have 1 to begin with.
Your definition of "extreme" is laughable. Especially when Subaru puts the same tire on something so relatively pedestrian as a 4 door, awd turbo. Real extreme stuff here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by liqidvenom
now you are running off with extremes here...not sure who said it is SOOO much the unlivable tire.
we are talking about how certain tires are an advantage over another. just to have a balanced test they should have the cars on the same rubber. they do that for alot of there other tests such as the high speed or certain shoot outs.
thats it. i just asked how those tires would be like after 10k miles, i know how 911tt's and z06 rubber is after 10k miles. thats all jeff, if you are running off with this same crazy talk then you are going to bring down this thread.
Don't worry folks I am sure Irish will chime in and explain all tire related questions
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2003 Nissan Maxima SE - Majectic Blue 6MT HLSD Meridan Edition, Titanium Editon-Dynoed 206.61whp and 219.54wtq...Stock 17 Degree Timing Advance*Apexi/Berk Short Ram Intake*Cattspeed Y-pipe*Cattman 2.5 B-Pipe*HKS Sport Exhaust*Cattman Ti FSTB*Progress RSB*ES Poly Front Sway Bar Bushings*HKS Grounding kit*Axxtion STS
If you would go back and read the original post I quoted it would make more sense to you.
According to Kenneth, if the 997 turbo was all optioned out it would have performed much better on the track. So my question is/was simple; if it's not track-ready with standard equipment, what are you paying for?
P.S. (for you knuckleheads that will take this the wrong way and respond with "prestige, panache, heritage blah blah) Not a knock on the 997 turbo or the Porsche brand at all. Just a knock on the excuse-making...
well i didnt read kenneths post so there....
imho, there is no reason to buy a fully loaded 911 when you are getting close to ferrari money. when ever you are buying a 100k+ car you are just buying a name and its performance is just for other people who cant afford one to ponder.
also you can eqiup your 911tt yo be a street monster or a track monster and that is up to you. many people who never track their cars will find that brake upgrade a waste of money unless they do it for pure show reasons.
no one is making any excuses for price or anything, unless some1 did and i missed it. whenyou buy a base 911tt you are buying the cheapest road going 911tt that will give you many of the thrills of a race car with the comfort and option list of a small army.
when ever you have a vert as part of the cars line up, 911tt targa for intance, it kind of leads you to beleive that that particular car is not that hard core for the track. thats why there is no gt2/gt3 vert and no z06 vert...
that being said cars that are track cars with street clothes on manage to get away with that such as the viper and the lotus with its removable roof...thats done more to widen sales and less of a softening of the cars line up.
What is the EXACT "advantage" of Sport 600 tire when it's THINNER than the other two by a pretty decent margin AND they are all in the exact same Max Performance Summer Tire category?????
Crazy talk? I guess putting in REAL specs and REAL logic vs "look at this tire!" or "what happens after 10k?" speculation isn't a lame attempt to try to take down the GT-R?
"After 10k" I don't know. Based on the data/tread ratings on what basis are you implying it would be any WORSE than the other two? In the end, who cares? You want a world class performance beating car? You need the tires to go with it. As does all the cars in this test.
Porsche = made for the street. Please. We all know making cars like these is about performance 1st and making it livable 2nd. There's no point in 2 if you don't have 1 to begin with.
Your definition of "extreme" is laughable. Especially when Subaru puts the same tire on something so relatively pedestrian as a 4 door, awd turbo. Real extreme stuff here.
all tires in one catagory do not all perform the same. that much you should know.
a tires width has nothing to do with a tires ability to grip. you can put the widest blizzacks on a car and it wont do jack.
not sure how all of a sudden an sti is a pedestrian vehicle.... last i check that was subarus best performing impreza. if they choose to put those tires on that car then kudoos to them. that has no bearing on what is being talked about here.
What real specs have you posted aside fomr pr talk from someone at that company.
who actually said that the porsche is just made for the street? you are on some ultra wild stuff today, just over exzagerating stuff as you see fit.
anyone who has EVER driven a corvette KNOWS the stock runflats are complete sh!t
replace them with anything at 1/2 the cost, and EVERY aspect of the car improves
"'I'll take a normally aspirated engine over a turbo any day, at least when it's this good. The Z06's engine has crazy power all the time, at any rpm, in any gear. And the sounds...come on, it's an American V-8, need I say more? It's the kind of power you can truly call 'neck-snapping,'' Monticello said. "
all tires in one catagory do not all perform the same. that much you should know.
So tell me, how do all these perform?? Oh that's right, you don't know. These could perform worse for all you know.
Quote:
a tires width has nothing to do with a tires ability to grip. you can put the widest blizzacks on a car and it wont do jack.
Now who's on that limb?? Please try not to take your flimsy argument there. NONE of the tires are winter tires. They are ALL MAX PERFORMANCE SUMMER.
So I guess when you talk about width not being a factor, I guess all the effort limiting tire widths in racing is waste of time.
Quote:
not sure how all of a sudden an sti is a pedestrian vehicle.... last i check that was subarus best performing impreza. if they choose to put those tires on that car then kudoos to them. that has no bearing on what is being talked about here.
Wait a minute. Now the STI is some god like track monster while you just got done telling us the Corvette Z06 and the Porche 911 Turbo are built as daily drivers?? You REALLY don't understand how the STI stacks up in this group do you?
Quote:
What real specs have you posted aside fomr pr talk from someone at that company.
What specs AT ALL have you posted? THEY ALL HAVE UTOGS of 200-220. Now once again, given the manufacture's specification, on what basis are you making your statements? Exactly? On what basis would you even ask the question?
Quote:
who actually said that the porsche is just made for the street? you are on some ultra wild stuff today, just over exzagerating stuff as you see fit.
Sorry, but I don't debate attention whores with rampant delusions of intellectual ability. If you have any point whatsoever, I'm sure someone else better equipped for actual debate will pick it up. I'll be happy to discuss it then.
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