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gm is just straight planning to physically beat their competition into submission...
Quote:
The new issue of Motor Trend arrived in the mail and our eyes were instantly attracted to this story that just went live on motortrend.com. The MT crew has learned that the supercharged V8 slated for use in the next-gen Cadillac CTS-V will be none other than a "detuned" version of the 7.0L LS7 powerplant debuting in the Corvette Blue Devil, or rather, Corvette Z07. The MT editors expect the version used in the CTS-V to produce about 600 horsepower, or around 100 horses short of what the Z07 will produce.
Pick any possible competitor for the next CTS-V and it's obvious that all will come up short to Caddy's new mega muscle sedan. The BMW M3 and Audi RS4 both produce only 420 horsepower, while the horsepower happy AMG team stuffed only 503 in the Mercedes-Benz C63 AMG. Even the BMW M5, which is larger than the CTS, will come up short with an upcoming horsepower bump into the low-500 horsepower range. In short, the CTS-V will offer the same amount of horsepower as the 2008 Dodge Viper, which is pure insanity. GM's got stones, folks, and Cadillac is clearly the prime beneficiary of its newfound fortitude.
Much thanks to Motor Trend editor-in-chief Angus Mackenzie for allowing Autoblog to republish the rendering above. The July issue (you can subscribe here) is thicker than a Thesaurus and our fave in a string of recent good issues from the MT team.
bmw pushing the HP envelope? doubtful. they've always focused more on an overall car instead of just straight line performance and high hp numbers.
can we talk about how this article instead is basically saying that the Z07 will have something like 700hp from the factory. for most drivers a gun should be an option from the factory so that they can do this -
the cts-v is more then just a straighline type of car....mayeb you should try not to talk about something negatively when its clear you dont know what your talking about
and people kill themselves in 4th gens all the time with our uncontrollable 190hp
First the new Camaro will get a detuned version of whatever engine (still vaporware for the time being) the next top wrung Corvette will have, now the CTS-V, soon it will be a Silverado, then an Impalla, and then maybe a Solstice. Hell, by the time 2009 comes around MT might uncover a plan to shove the engine in a Cobalt and call it the Cobalt SS SS...
the cts-v is more then just a straighline type of car....mayeb you should try not to talk about something negatively when its clear you dont know what your talking about
and people kill themselves in 4th gens all the time with our uncontrollable 190hp
I can kill myself with a knife or a rifle. One apparatus is going to be easier to complete the job. I'm not necessarily with the other guy as this is just my opinion. 600hp is a ton of 'out of the box' power should this car debut at the same price it's predecessor did.
While I have no doubt the new CTS-V will be a worthy competitor, your first post is the basis for what I'm going to say next. You said that GM is trying to beat it's competition into submission. Think about that for a second. Whether you meant it literally or were joking, it's got a ring of truth. David vs. Goliath anyone? What good is all that power if the car built around it lacks serious research and development. Aside from very LIGHT suspension mods (and that's a maybe) what else are they planning to do with the car? To me, GM likes to shoehorn large motors into cars, badge them something sporty and call it a day. While they make and have been making some good cars lately, they've got a long way to go before (at least to me) they can compete with German and Japanese offerings. It doesn't begin with an engine with crazy power.
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2007 Sparking Graphite/Coral Red BMW 335i Coupé, 6MT (ZPP, ZSP, CA)
There are enough simpletons who think otherwise that it will sell, no doubt.
Of course it will sell... I have no doubt, none whatsoever... 600hp for less than $70k? (just speculating price) I'm there, but that's probably the ONLY reason it will sell... When was the last time you considered a CTS over a G35/7 or BMW or Acura or any other luxury brand? I see people asking for advice all the time on all forums and the American competitor is almost never an option.
Here's a challenge: HONESTLY rank the following vehicles in order of preference. I'm not talking about the super cars of each car but just your regular every day car as it is the foundation for their respective 'supercar' models in parenthesis.
Obviously these cars are priced all over the place and are very diverse so I tried to keep it similar size wise...
GM seems to make up for deficiencies by doing things like this and that sucks. I've got tons of pride in my country and what it has to offer... One of those is not cars.
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2007 Sparking Graphite/Coral Red BMW 335i Coupé, 6MT (ZPP, ZSP, CA)
First the new Camaro will get a detuned version of whatever engine (still vaporware for the time being) the next top wrung Corvette will have, now the CTS-V, soon it will be a Silverado, then an Impalla, and then maybe a Solstice. Hell, by the time 2009 comes around MT might uncover a plan to shove the engine in a Cobalt and call it the Cobalt SS SS...
geez if you knew half of the stuff gm's performance division builds up and wants produced that is to much for the street then you would be glad this caddy only has 600hp.
they built a 700whp camaro when the 4th gen has its ls1 upgrade and they waned that to be the ss version....crazy folks but it seems now who ever kept them in check must have gotten fired cause they are running free
I can kill myself with a knife or a rifle. One apparatus is going to be easier to complete the job. I'm not necessarily with the other guy as this is just my opinion. 600hp is a ton of 'out of the box' power should this car debut at the same price it's predecessor did.
While I have no doubt the new CTS-V will be a worthy competitor, your first post is the basis for what I'm going to say next. You said that GM is trying to beat it's competition into submission. Think about that for a second. Whether you meant it literally or were joking, it's got a ring of truth. David vs. Goliath anyone? What good is all that power if the car built around it lacks serious research and development. Aside from very LIGHT suspension mods (and that's a maybe) what else are they planning to do with the car? To me, GM likes to shoehorn large motors into cars, badge them something sporty and call it a day. While they make and have been making some good cars lately, they've got a long way to go before (at least to me) they can compete with German and Japanese offerings. It doesn't begin with an engine with crazy power.
well gm has done the same with the c6 z06 and people said before it was sold that it was just a waste and that it would only go straight and porsche and the others wouldnt have any trouble beating it on a track....but also gm has done alot to even the base c6 to make the minor changes done to the z06 all that more dramatic when all of the pieces are put together.
the old cts-v was a very good handling car by those that tested it an now gm has nearly reworked the majority of what the next gen cts rides on. its interior is said to be a class leader and coupled with the direct injection motor it is a very nice sporty sedan....u cram in a different motor and take what they have learned from the cts-v racing program and i see a very similar outcome as what was doen with the z06.
Of course it will sell... I have no doubt, none whatsoever... 600hp for less than $70k? (just speculating price) I'm there, but that's probably the ONLY reason it will sell... When was the last time you considered a CTS over a G35/7 or BMW or Acura or any other luxury brand? I see people asking for advice all the time on all forums and the American competitor is almost never an option.
Here's a challenge: HONESTLY rank the following vehicles in order of preference. I'm not talking about the super cars of each car but just your regular every day car as it is the foundation for their respective 'supercar' models in parenthesis.
Obviously these cars are priced all over the place and are very diverse so I tried to keep it similar size wise...
GM seems to make up for deficiencies by doing things like this and that sucks. I've got tons of pride in my country and what it has to offer... One of those is not cars.
the only thing i can say to you is to drive the new direct injection cts and drive the new cts-v comign out... i had my preconceptions about the car you drove and i would have never thought about taking it over a c350 or what ever top of the line sub amg mb puts out....but when you drive something and actually do so without having and prejiduce(sp) about it i am sure you will like more about the car then just its power.
and i wouldnt be shocked it gm sold enough of the old cts's to be in the top 3 or 4 of that list u put up there
geez if you knew half of the stuff gm's performance division builds up and wants produced that is to much for the street then you would be glad this caddy only has 600hp.
they built a 700whp camaro when the 4th gen has its ls1 upgrade and they waned that to be the ss version....crazy folks but it seems now who ever kept them in check must have gotten fired cause they are running free
Oh I am very familiar with what GMPP wants to build. GMPP is run by engineers...GMPP, though, has to contend with the people who green light their toys (accountants and people with MBA's). Ford's SVT group built a 500+ hp V-10 Mustang several years ago using off-the-shelf parts and almost no direct financial support (the project was given the nod by Coletti, not by Ford)...and a 600 hp Caddy as about as much of a chance of production. Notice they (MT) keep bringing up supercharger and LS7 in the same sentance. Guess what GMPP knows that MT doesn't? The LS7 doesn't have the cylinder wall material to accept a supercharger and meet OEM endurance standards. So it won't be a LS7 no matter what MT calls it. Best bet? Next Caddy does get the current LS7, no supercharger (the engine bay is going to be cramped enough dealing with the dry-sump oil system), and still have 500 hp which is more than enough for it and any direct competition.
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1995 Maxima GLE, stock
2000 F-150 XLT, blown
thats one caddy with balls, sure it may be fast in a straight line, but can it stand the true test of being a track tuned car like benz, bmw, and audi? the euros may look weak next to the the heavy fisted cts, but the hp the euros have, they know how to use every single horse and leave none to spare. id love to test the new m3 and cts-v both should be incredible driving experiences but im willing to bet id favor the m3 just from past experiences with it, it has history of being a well ballanced car. caddy is gona have to pull more than a high hp engine to steal loyal brand purchasers.
Highly doubt it will have 600hp. And if it does, it will be expensive as hell. Easily 80K plus and pricing itself right out of the market (The Supercharged Vette will cost over 100K and will be VERY limited). Subtract another 50-100hp and you'll have something that GM is actually thinking of doing.
thats one caddy with balls, sure it may be fast in a straight line, but can it stand the true test of being a track tuned car like benz, bmw, and audi? the euros may look weak next to the the heavy fisted cts, but the hp the euros have, they know how to use every single horse and leave none to spare. id love to test the new m3 and cts-v both should be incredible driving experiences but im willing to bet id favor the m3 just from past experiences with it, it has history of being a well ballanced car. caddy is gona have to pull more than a high hp engine to steal loyal brand purchasers.
Heh...think the CTS-V can't handle with its European counterparts? Pretty sure it has already proven to be at least as capable as BMW's offerings along with Audi's. Also seemed to do very well in its first SCCA GT-class (Corvettes, Vipers, Porsche 911's) season. So obviously is has a very capable suspension and chassis and obviously will be very competitive with the next iteration (all those spyshots at the Ring should mean something too).
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1995 Maxima GLE, stock
2000 F-150 XLT, blown
the only thing i can say to you is to drive the new direct injection cts and drive the new cts-v comign out... i had my preconceptions about the car you drove and i would have never thought about taking it over a c350 or what ever top of the line sub amg mb puts out....but when you drive something and actually do so without having and prejiduce(sp) about it i am sure you will like more about the car then just its power.
and i wouldnt be shocked it gm sold enough of the old cts's to be in the top 3 or 4 of that list u put up there
I agree that I (we) should all drive the car before further assumptions can be made. I'm mostly going by GM's track record and the CTS-Vs I felt at the car show. That having been said, I am not sitting here saying that the CTS-V is not a viable alternative to German offerings or that it cannot COMPETE in the handling field/interior design feel. I will say, however, that they have a long ways to go before they produce cars that deliver the overall package most imports give you. It always feels like the imports spend more money on interior refinement, however crappy, than the states. I'm not the only one who feels this way, too.
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2007 Sparking Graphite/Coral Red BMW 335i Coupé, 6MT (ZPP, ZSP, CA)
Oh I am very familiar with what GMPP wants to build. GMPP is run by engineers...GMPP, though, has to contend with the people who green light their toys (accountants and people with MBA's). Ford's SVT group built a 500+ hp V-10 Mustang several years ago using off-the-shelf parts and almost no direct financial support (the project was given the nod by Coletti, not by Ford)...and a 600 hp Caddy as about as much of a chance of production. Notice they (MT) keep bringing up supercharger and LS7 in the same sentance. Guess what GMPP knows that MT doesn't? The LS7 doesn't have the cylinder wall material to accept a supercharger and meet OEM endurance standards. So it won't be a LS7 no matter what MT calls it. Best bet? Next Caddy does get the current LS7, no supercharger (the engine bay is going to be cramped enough dealing with the dry-sump oil system), and still have 500 hp which is more than enough for it and any direct competition.
thats the same feeling i had when i first read about this....the only way this car makes it to production is if they do one of two things:
1) make this into a cts-v ss or something along those lines and charge what they want for it...which i could really see happening. have a cts-v for the masses and the higher performance version for a few
2) they gear up and kill all the suckers with mbas and then release it
thats the same feeling i had when i first read about this....the only way this car makes it to production is if they do one of two things:
1) make this into a cts-v ss or something along those lines and charge what they want for it...which i could really see happening. have a cts-v for the masses and the higher performance version for a few
i was thinkin that too. sorta like audi with the S (S4) and RS (RS4) both very capable cars...but the RS adds that......
not sure if gm is ready to go that route with its fairly new peroformance division for GM.....the cts-v (1st gen) was a very nice car, hell even the 3.6 was nice, i just didnt like the dash, but it was a nice overall car. good quality for what it was. now this new cts-v sounds like it may be a great follow up but doubt also it will have 600 hp. im thinkin it will top out at 5 somethin, just enough to surpass the 300c srt8.........now a 600 hp sts-v or xlr-v may be somethin to consider.
When was the last time you considered a CTS over a G35/7 or BMW or Acura or any other luxury brand?
I would consider a CTS along side a G35, BMW, Acura. Why not? IMO they're nice looking cars. The LS6/LS2 CTS-Vs are coming down in price and I would consider one over a G35 if I had the cash to drop on one.
I think it looks fantastic in the V model, nice aggressive look, and a GREAT V8 to back it up. The V8 is enough to make me want it over the G and I like the G a lot!
If this is true about the new one with 600HP, this car will be north of $70K I'm guessing. The old one is a $60K car, this is a 200HP jump, I'm thinking close to M5 territory.
I would consider a CTS along side a G35, BMW, Acura. Why not? IMO they're nice looking cars. The LS6/LS2 CTS-Vs are coming down in price and I would consider one over a G35 if I had the cash to drop on one.
I think it looks fantastic in the V model, nice aggressive look, and a GREAT V8 to back it up. The V8 is enough to make me want it over the G and I like the G a lot!
If this is true about the new one with 600HP, this car will be north of $70K I'm guessing. The old one is a $60K car, this is a 200HP jump, I'm thinking close to M5 territory.
I'm talking on an aggregate level. From what I've seen on the forums I browse, people ask for advice on Japanese and German makes, when American is mentioned, they say no thanks or <insert something negative here> about them.
I think they look fantastic too, but never considered it when shopping this and last time around. I'm not saying they're ugly or not capable... I just feel the overall package isn't what you get with Japanese/German makes which in turn makes the end buyer not give them the time of day. Ask yourself this: E46 M3, CTS-V or S4... Be honest. I live in Miami and I've seen ONE V line related car and it was the LS1 CTS-V. I don't see M3s or S4s every day, but I see them 10x more than the Caddy. So why is the average car buyer in that price range opting out of the CTS-V? Bargain, yes? But people don't seem to want bargain as much as they want the whole package. Everyone talks about them being damn nice cars but at the end of the day, I don't see them on the roads...
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2007 Sparking Graphite/Coral Red BMW 335i Coupé, 6MT (ZPP, ZSP, CA)
I see more E46 M3s yes, but in my area there are quite a few CTS-Vs, more than S4s I see.
I think it maybe more because people don't think Cadillac as a performance brand, more of just GM's ordinary luxury brand. I think thats why with this CTS-V, Cadillac/GM wants to be taken seriously.
I think it maybe more because people don't think Cadillac as a performance brand, more of just GM's ordinary luxury brand. I think thats why with this CTS-V, Cadillac/GM wants to be taken seriously.
Could be... It's possible. The point I'm trying to drive home is that every car is synonymous with something. For most, GM happens to be synonymous with inferiority. If they want to be taken seriously, it's going to take a lot more than 100,000mi warranties and monster power plants. I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt, but I still have my doubts.
At the end of the day I can sit here and pretend to know what will lift GM out of it's image. The direction of the company is in the hands of the CEO and shareholders. However, the one thing I know is that I've yet to own one because they just dont appeal to me.
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2007 Sparking Graphite/Coral Red BMW 335i Coupé, 6MT (ZPP, ZSP, CA)
I'm talking on an aggregate level. From what I've seen on the forums I browse, people ask for advice on Japanese and German makes, when American is mentioned, they say no thanks or <insert something negative here> about them.
I think they look fantastic too, but never considered it when shopping this and last time around. I'm not saying they're ugly or not capable... I just feel the overall package isn't what you get with Japanese/German makes which in turn makes the end buyer not give them the time of day. Ask yourself this: E46 M3, CTS-V or S4... Be honest. I live in Miami and I've seen ONE V line related car and it was the LS1 CTS-V. I don't see M3s or S4s every day, but I see them 10x more than the Caddy. So why is the average car buyer in that price range opting out of the CTS-V? Bargain, yes? But people don't seem to want bargain as much as they want the whole package. Everyone talks about them being damn nice cars but at the end of the day, I don't see them on the roads...
wekk if you own an import odds are you will be spending alot of your time on import boards...you go on a domestic board and you are bound to find peopel that have the same blind reaction you see towards imports instead of domestics.
and the cts-v is a very small niche car. it only comes as a manual, its a very powerful car and those two things alone scare away a large number of people that buy auto e46's and s4's. also the s4 and m3 have many yrs of heritage behind its belt which the cts-v doesnt have. i would assume gm has sold as many cts-v's as bmw n audi have sold manual s4's and m3's in america.
and outside america the cts-v has alot of buzz, when i was in sweden they were being sold out before they managed to get on off the boat. they rarely sit on dealer lots. and they tend to be sold more to people that are looking for a performance sedan then just people that want to buy the "top of the line" 3 series or a4
wekk if you own an import odds are you will be spending alot of your time on import boards...you go on a domestic board and you are bound to find peopel that have the same blind reaction you see towards imports instead of domestics.
and the cts-v is a very small niche car. it only comes as a manual, its a very powerful car and those two things alone scare away a large number of people that buy auto e46's and s4's. also the s4 and m3 have many yrs of heritage behind its belt which the cts-v doesnt have. i would assume gm has sold as many cts-v's as bmw n audi have sold manual s4's and m3's in america.
and outside america the cts-v has alot of buzz, when i was in sweden they were being sold out before they managed to get on off the boat. they rarely sit on dealer lots. and they tend to be sold more to people that are looking for a performance sedan then just people that want to buy the "top of the line" 3 series or a4
I spend time on plenty of neutral forums, one of which being genmay. You're right, on most, if not all import boards, people will be partial to that style car (import) and it's these customers GM needs. I'm sure domestic boards have partial people but I honestly believe their bias is based more on principle than the cars themselves. Domestic boards might turn a blind eye like you may think I'm doing, but I firmly believe they have little reason to.
Niche cars? So are the S4 and M3! The M3 is basically a manual only car as it's options are SMG/6MT. SMG =/ Auto. Audis and the S4 *I believe* have a DSG tranny that also differs from your run of the mill auto. But that's not the point, is it? I don't believe for one second that anyone buying an M3 or S4 would be scared away from the CTS-V because of a manual only option. I think they'd be scared away for the reason's I've illustrated over and over. If CTS-V is selling as much or more than M3/S4, they must all be garage queens. Because I don't see them here at ALL.
Can't really comment on this paragraph as I've never been or seen sales figures for Sweden. But the CTS-V is merely a "top-of-the-line" CTS like the M3 and S4 are to the 3er and A4 series respectively. FWIW, on my trip to England/France/Belgium I saw no American V8s. I'm hard pressed to believe that they were selling like hotcakes in Europe because of the gas prices and fees you pay to own a car like that. Anyone else who has been to Europe can probably say the same.
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2007 Sparking Graphite/Coral Red BMW 335i Coupé, 6MT (ZPP, ZSP, CA)
The CTS-V was always the crudest, least-refined car in its class by a big margin, and it was always the decisive champion on a race track -- on the straights AND in the corners. That will continue as long as the car exists.
Meanwhile, BMW will still have the most focused, driver-oriented car; Audi will still have the endearing one with AWD; Mercedes will still have the plush Autobahn rocket; and Lexus will still have the gadgety 8-speed one with all the blinky lights.
Each of them has its place, which is why they can all exist. NONE of them will ever truly dominate, and nor will a 600 hp CTS-V. What that CTS-V will do is expand the segment to make it accessible to people who have money and want a supersedan but find all the current offerings to be too week or tame. Meanwhile, the people who prefer feel, refinement, balance, and some measure of comfort will still go for the Euro brands.
I spend time on plenty of neutral forums, one of which being genmay. You're right, on most, if not all import boards, people will be partial to that style car (import) and it's these customers GM needs. I'm sure domestic boards have partial people but I honestly believe their bias is based more on principle than the cars themselves. Domestic boards might turn a blind eye like you may think I'm doing, but I firmly believe they have little reason to.
Niche cars? So are the S4 and M3! The M3 is basically a manual only car as it's options are SMG/6MT. SMG =/ Auto. Audis and the S4 *I believe* have a DSG tranny that also differs from your run of the mill auto. But that's not the point, is it? I don't believe for one second that anyone buying an M3 or S4 would be scared away from the CTS-V because of a manual only option. I think they'd be scared away for the reason's I've illustrated over and over. If CTS-V is selling as much or more than M3/S4, they must all be garage queens. Because I don't see them here at ALL.
Can't really comment on this paragraph as I've never been or seen sales figures for Sweden. But the CTS-V is merely a "top-of-the-line" CTS like the M3 and S4 are to the 3er and A4 series respectively. FWIW, on my trip to England/France/Belgium I saw no American V8s. I'm hard pressed to believe that they were selling like hotcakes in Europe because of the gas prices and fees you pay to own a car like that. Anyone else who has been to Europe can probably say the same.
a smg and the dsg are transmission that have no clutch...the clutch is the part that scares off alot of people. many people have no idea how advanced or how fast their automated manual can shift...to them its just something u put into drive and it operates without u having to do any work with your left foot. no one buys any of those cars for interior comfort or a plush ride.
when i said a niche car i meant that as in the s4/m3 have had numerous model runs with their base vehicles and their super cars have been around for quite some time so people can see that as being just another trim level as opposed to it being something so new and different. a cts as a car is in its first gen going into its 2nd. it was a balsy move by gm to even make the cts-v for a car so new. so i meant to call the cts-v a niche car due to its manual only option and it being so new.
and when i was in sweden i visted a gm dealer and he had sold something like3-4 c6 z06's and already sold a good handful of the cts-v's. he just had people want something so his dealership tried to get them thrgh gm but it took to long to place an order so they just bought it from another us dealer and resold it there. heck i drove around in my fiances dads lt1 4th gen camaro...and i came across a good number of other 4th gen f bodies...no to mention lots of older muscle cars prowling around
I've quit getting excited about new models and prototypes and all that until I see one at a dealer. I will be surprised to see 600hp in a stock Caddy anytime soon. I bet they will be like, well we had to detune it to 500 for emissions blah blah.... and that's nothing amazing these days. The pictures of the latest gen Mustang prototype made me ALMOST love mustangs. But when I saw the first one in person I was not impressed in the least. We'll see....
nice vid...what i dont understand is why all of a sudden it goes from being a m3/c55/s4 competitior to jumping into the class of a m5/e63? those are much bigger and more expensive cars imho
nice vid...what i dont understand is why all of a sudden it goes from being a m3/c55/s4 competitior to jumping into the class of a m5/e63? those are much bigger and more expensive cars imho
And I cant wait to see the slaughter.
Agreed.
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