95maxrider

iTrader: (32)

I think the Carbotech AX-6 pads are the culprit here. I've never seen anything dust like these pads.

Don't forget the 8k rear springs, too Meh, it's still not enough for me. In the whole of my racing in 2012 I only had the rear end come around on me twice, and I was easily able to catch it both times (both at auto-x). On the track and street it's a baby; you can't get this car to oversteer or do anything scary. It's amazing how neutral and safe this car is right now.

98SEBlackMax

iTrader: (9)

Crazy the slotted rotors got worn like that, the AX-6 are supposed to be a mild brake pad... The XP8s I have are not eating up the rotors to bad. Maybe I just don't use the brakes enough.

Oh I finally got free time to work on my car and other things in my life again as my work load has gotten a bit lighter. I might be at VIR on Memorial Day weekend if things go right. SCMC/TCUSA are running the full grand course and the schedule is a pair of four hour open sessions per day with a THREE day event.

95maxrider

iTrader: (32)

Yeah, I don't know what to make of these rotors.

That event sounds AWESOME! Can anyone sign up? It would be great to get on a track with another Maxima, let alone one set up so similarly to mine (really the other way around....I copied everything you did )

aackshun

iTrader: (3)

Delete the front sway bar, lolz will be had

BTW you're getting PM'd, need brake pad rec's

98SEBlackMax

iTrader: (9)

The event is open to all as of right now, but if it fills up they might limit the cars to Fords only. However I have never seen an event fill up to 100% and they always welcome other makes of cars, especially since they need the money to pay for the track rental.

With your setup it should not have any problems keeping up as these guys love big power and taking it easy in the corners. I had a good time at NJMP last time I attened a SCMC event. Most people thought I was turboed as I was able to keep up decently.

98SEBlackMax

iTrader: (9)

Not on a high speed road course.

95maxrider

iTrader: (32)

Got links? Sounds like a ton of fun. Any idea what a day/3 days would cost?

98SEBlackMax

iTrader: (9)

http://www.svtcobraclub.com/forums/s...ad.php?t=19018

My buddy with the Cobra texted me the other day and warned me to get my car ready by May. Details are still up in the air about cost but I would imagine somewhere in the $500 range. But over three days with 18~24 hours of open track time it is worth it IMO. These are the track days as to why I have a huge aftermarket radiator, upgraded the power steering cooler, and added the oil cooler to my car. My next plan is to improve the aero some more and intergrate some brake cooling ducts with the front splitter.

aackshun

iTrader: (3)

Shucks, to think 130+ isn't high speed any more

Norm Peterson

From the pad descriptions, I'm sure that it's the pads. Near as I can tell, they're similar to Hawk's HP+ pads - intended for autocross and light track
use but are still streetable if you can stand the dust, noise and rotor wear (which tends to be worse when things are cold). But they bite like nothing
else you've used on the street, right?

Exactly what are you referring to early in the thread as a "LTB"?


dwapenyi - A PHB is for lateral axle location and roll center height determination, similar to the Scott-Russell linkage found in 5th gen Maximas. A rear
stabilizer bar is something else entirely, used to tune the understeer/oversteer handling balance by shifting how much of the lateral load transfer is
taken at the front vs the rear.


About how smoothly the PHB works - yes, this will depend on how well it stays lubricated if its pivots are anything but rubber bushings.
No lube = stiction = a source of NVH that you can feel. Even if you only feel it on a subliminal level, you will notice the change right after you re-lube them.


Norm

95maxrider

iTrader: (32)

Well, yes, they are fantastic on the street, but most of the credit for that goes to the Wilwoods. Surprisingly, the Carbotech XP-8 pads felt even better on the street in terms of initial bite! Unfortunately the dust is damn near unbearable, so I might try out some HPSs again and see how they feel with the Wilwoods.

A LTB is a lower tie bar and was a Matt Blehm creation. It was nice to have, but headers are better and you can't have both

Norm Peterson

LTB - got it.

I still think it's mostly the pads. I just put the HP+ on the front of my '08 Mustang a month or two ago. Did nothing else other than flush the old fluid out with ATE amber. Night and day difference.


Out of curiosity, does the I30 come originally equipped with a PHB or did it also feature a Scott-Russell link?

As strictly a side note, I recall there was some dumbness on SCCA's part with respect to categorizing the S-R link a few years back and I wonder if they ever fixed it.


Norm

95maxrider

iTrader: (32)

The I30 came with the exact same suspension as any 4th gen Maxima, I just had 2J Racing convert it to a panhard rod.

I don't know about SCCA's classing regarding the SR linkage, but I do know that their rules are still completely retarded regarding chassis bracing and general Maxima classing. No, SCCA, a stock Maxima with SFCs does not belong in a class for stripped out track cars. Fix your god damn rules.

Norm Peterson

At least as late as the published 2009 Solo Rules, the Scott-Russell linkage was officially defined as IRS by the SCCA as per the following general
clarification (boldface mine)

"Scott Russell linkages, for example like that found on the rear of an '06 Nissan Maxima, are a form of independent suspension and are not included
in the definition of solid rear axle"

WTF???

It eventually got corrected in the 2011 rules, but the level of comprehension about the things that are actually being ruled on is absolutely underwhelming
at times . . . something of equal silliness is a current hot topic in the worlds of SP/ST.


Enough of that, back to your build . . .

Are your PHB ends true rod ends, some sort of composite socket surrounding a metal ball, or a cylindrical bushing that can only rotate about a straight
tubular inner sleeve?


Norm

95maxrider

iTrader: (32)

Now I could be mistaken, but I thought the SRL went bye-bye with the 5th gen and by 2006 (6th gen) they were on a true independent suspension.

Regarding my PHR, I honestly don't have an answer for you. What do you mean by true rod ends? Got a picture of what you're talking about?

98SEBlackMax

iTrader: (9)

SRL went away with the 6th gen in 2004. The 5 ~ 5.5 gen had a slightly improved SRL, but not much of an improvemet.

The panhard swap uses true rod end sphericals and replaces the SRL link with different mounting points for the panhard bar that 2JR welds in at their shop. Lowers the rear roll center by a few inches; bringing it closer in line to the front roll center, which is somewhere below the LCAs.

The difference is quite obvious the front tires get less overloaded in the corners as the SRL imparts a large difference in roll center heights (forget what the term is called). I also noticed less front tire wear after track events compared to running the SRL. The car even feels a bit faster, my lap times with the panhard & AD08 Advans felt similar to my old lap times with the SRL & Nitto NT-01s.

Norm Peterson

I lost a whole post while you were typing another one.

That first item is only further evidence that nobody there was paying much attention or bothering to fully understand exactly what they were ruling on. I'm sure that Bejay could tell you more . . .


A "true rod end" is the kind of thing commonly known as a Heim joint. Steel ball in a metal socket, occasionally with a thin layer of teflon in between but with no real thickness of nonmetallic material. Here's a link, as I don't seem to have any good way to post a picture directly. Aurora is one of the better-known names, QA1 is another.

http://www.aurorabearing.com/index.html

I'm calling them "true rod ends" here to distinguish them from other types of spherical joint that use urethane or other nonmetallic material for bushings that the spherical ball (metal) rides in instead of a metallic socket.

Legality of rod ends varies a bit both by class and location. I think that a PHB with rod ends is legal in ST and SP, but I'm going off memory there.


Norm

dwapenyi

iTrader: (3)

Thanks for the explanation of the PHB. You piqued my curiousity so I googled Scott russel link, then put on some dirty clothes and went under my 98 I30 (same as 95 Maxriders) It does have a scott russel linkage in the beam suspension just like the 5th gen and 2002 sentra. It looks pretty much exactly like this;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sc...ll_Linkage.jpg

95maxrider

iTrader: (32)

If you're like me and all of the nice big pictures are being automatically re-sized much smaller, you can do the following to make it the way it used to be:

Click on User CP at the top left of your screen, then click Edit Options. Under the Thread Display section, the final box is for The Image Resizer. Select the Keep Original Size option (or whichever you desire) and reload/F5 any pages if images come up small.

Rcrootbeer

So do you know how much you have into this car? or is it more like if you saw the numbers you'd say God help me and turn your shoulder?

phenryiv1

iTrader: (19)

Its like that. But having driven the car this weekend, it is handling very well these days, even on A/S tires.

95maxrider

iTrader: (32)

Yeah, I've added it up, and it's pretty alarming. But then again I've owned the car for 10 years now, so the cost per year isn't so bad. If I can get this damn stuck bolt off my crankshaft pulley and replace my delrin control arm bushings, the car will be in damn near perfect shape and I won't really need to do anything to it for a long time and I can focus wasting my money on an even older money pit

95maxrider

iTrader: (32)

Time for some updates!

Well after much waiting around, I finally got the new delrin LCA bushings in, and MAN were the old ones worn out. There was so much play in them it was just silly. They squeaked so loud I had to drive around with my stereo on full blast just to keep from going insane. Unfortunately, the new ones (both the metal sleeve and delrin part) were 2 mm longer than the originals! This meant we had to grind them down until they fit properly. Take a look for yourself.

Before trimming:






After:


I guess this is what you get when you order custom parts in small batches. I just hope these last through this racing season.

Now that winter appears to be over, it was time to clean off the coilovers with some compressed air and purple power.

Before:


After:


Oh, and have you seen my magic trick of how I turn slotted rotors into blanks within a matter of months?



I also realized I have never replaced that actual sway bar end links (just the bushings before) so I got new ones from the dealer. The old ones were so loose it was amazing they were doing anything at all.



ES poly on the left, stock on the right. I didn't bother trimming the ES ones down.


Assembled. Hooray!


And I replaced both steering rack boots since one was torn and the other was starting to crack.

Before:


After:


All fresh!


I also sprayed a bunch of WD-40 down the e-brake cables since they locked up on me a few times during the winter. It's a shame, since these are only 3 years old. I hope they're not totally trashed.

95maxrider

iTrader: (32)

I also fixed the noise coming from my rear brakes that showed up after I flipped around the relocation bracket for the BBK. Turns out I had the washer on the wrong side and the caliper bracket was barely touching the rotor under braking. It's all fixed now, thank god. That was one awful noise it made.

Here's what it looked like when we installed the rear BBK according to the instructions in the kit:


And here's what it looked like when we flipped the bracket, but had the washer in the wrong location:


And here's what it looks like now:


Live and learn.

I also replaced a leaking power steering hose (from the pump to the reservoir), so now my car is leak free. It's a nice feeling! Oh, and I had to re-roll a 2" section of my rear passenger fender, as it was chewing up the tire back there. I had them all rolled last summer, but that was the only one that needed to be pulled a little as well. I'm not sure how that section became un-rolled, but it wasn't good. Let's see if this fix lasts.

Oh, and I realized I had never replaced the inner tie rods or ball joints, but we checked them for play and they were in perfect shape, so I opted to not install the new Moog parts I had bought. Apparently Moog parts are going downhill in terms of quality (so says my mechanic friend who deals with them a lot), so if/when I do replace those parts, I think I will shell out for OEM.

Well the car needs an alignment before the back-to-back Solo races this weekend, so I might try out some more aggressive specs for this season and see how my tires fare. We shall see. I'll post up my specs when I get them

95maxrider

iTrader: (32)

After replacing the control arm bushings it was time for a new alignment. Last year I ran around with -2.0* camber, and my (street) tires seemed to deal with it ok, and since Hoosiers really like -2.5* or more, I decided I would push my luck and go with -2.5*.

I decided against spending $100 for another corner balancing, since it should still be pretty much on point, and instead spent the money trying something new.

I went to a new shop to get the alignment done, PTuning in Manassas, VA. The tech who worked on my car autocrosses his Scion, and the shop won multiple time attacks with their 500 whp Scion tC race car, so they know a thing or two about racing FWD, thankfully. The tech had an idea to help me get some caster out of my car. As you might know, Maximas are caster-limited, and most people don't get above 2.7* caster, which is where I was last year. From my basic understanding, adding caster doesn't adversely affect tire wear, but it kind of adds to whatever static camber you already have when in turns (but not in a straight line). So, for the most part, the more the better, even on a street car. Apparently RWD race cars run up to something like 10* in the front.

But how can this be done? Well, the tech accomplished this by re-drilling the three holes for the upper strut mounts and rotating the coilover around so that instead of adjusting camber (side to side), it adjusts caster (front to rear). But what about all that nice camber I had before? Well, (and I know it's a dirty word in these parts) but camber bolts to the rescue! I was weary of them coming loose over time, but the tech assured me that between the locking nuts and some Loctite, they won't be going anywhere. We shall see. I might carry around a torque wrench just in case and make sure it's still at 66 lb/ft. The tech wasn't sure if one camber bolt (on the top) would be enough, but we lucked out and it was.

I was considering adding even more toe out, but decided I'm already pushing the limits of what I can get away with in terms of tire wear, so I kept it at 0.1* toe out.

Here are the specs we ended up with:

Camber: -2.5* (was -2.0)
Caster: 4.7* (was 2.7)
Toe: 0.1* toe out

As far as I'm aware, this is the most caster I've ever seen on a Maxima.

I didn't get to push the car very hard yet, but it doesn't feel dramatically different. I'm assuming that will change once I take a couple hard corners. I was expecting the steering to be much heavier from the added caster, but the difference is very minimal.

I'll post up some pics later! For now, enjoy the alignment printout.

95naSTA

iTrader: (10)

I need some camber back in my life.. The last time I lowered my front coils I went from -1.0 to zero'd out since the LCAs are way past neutral. I just toe'd and go'd it.

Maximaguy

iTrader: (9)

I love this car man, Where did you get the aluminum dash kit from? Off ebay? Fitment looks good.

Norm Peterson

What is the full installation torque for the ordinary strut to knuckle fasteners? I'm seeing on the order of 130 - 139 ft-lb for these fasteners on the 5th gen Max, which is generally consistent with what I've seen for other cars.

I doubt that with locktite any torque measurements you make later will be worth much, because the resistance to turning added by the hardened threadlocker will provide a fictitiously high torque reading. After all, it's not the torque per se that is important in a bolted joint. It's only an indication of proper clamping force through the joint, which is really what keeps it from slipping.

When you come right down to it, losing the adjustment is not what should concern you should you discover that the joint did slip and make your camber shift. Know that it is possible to fracture the knuckle itself, particularly when there exists much higher loading than street driving on OE tires can generate.


Separate question but loosely related - when you trimmed the lengths of the bushings and their inner sleeves, did you leave the inner sleeves just a tiny bit longer than the bushing material?


Norm

95maxrider

iTrader: (32)

I bought the dash kit from Shadow (an old member) back in 2004 or so. The fitment is pretty good; my installation not so much.

Norm- I think he said he torqued the other strut to knuckle bolt to something like 90 lb/ft. It sounds like you're saying I shouldn't worry so much about the camber bolt coming loose as much as I should be worried about snapping my knuckle. Well, there's not much I can do about that except not race, and I don't want to do that. I believe when we trimmed the metal LCA insert, we made it the same length as the delrin outer section. Why do you ask?

Norm Peterson

When the bushing material is longer than the inner sleeve, some of the fastener torque becomes essentially wasted in compressing the bushing instead of providing clamp load through the stack of bolted parts (typically bracket side / inner sleeve / other bracket side). At the same length there will still be some extra resistance to any off-axis rotation that may exist.

The knuckle failure mode exists when one fastener is not providing an adequate clamp load and the knuckle is placed under greater bending load than it should see. There were a few of these failures on the earlier years of the current Mustang, and the fix involved fine thread bolts at greater installation torque, plus a very slight increase in the knuckle thickness. All to better guarantee a joint clamp load sufficient for the rigors of competition including autocross. Your knuckle may well be better off relative to the spacing between the 'ears' on the struts, but I still get nervous hearing about the use of half-strength fasteners in this application. Personally, I'd grind one of the hole sets in the strut tabs oval and just use a regular OE strut to knuckle fastener at the full factory torque. Did that on my Mazda 626, actually, including a method for positively fixing the setting. I really, really hope that 90 ft-lb did not put those fasteners past yield stress, else what you have now is a couple of conversation-piece paperweights.


Norm

ChrisMan287

iTrader: (34)

I hope you don't snap a camber bolt. I had one break on me and I don't even track my car. I ditched them after that (Eibachs BTW).

95maxrider

iTrader: (32)

Do you remember what brand it was? How did it happen?

ChrisMan287

iTrader: (34)

They were Eibachs and brand new. I was driving and felt a vibration up front. Kept driving and the vibration would come and go. When I got home to inspect it, I immediately noticed that it was broken (ended up broken right near the center). I still don't understand how or why it broke like that.

95maxrider

iTrader: (32)

Wow, so you were able to keep driving? Did it just split in half? I'm guessing you had it installed in the upper of the two bolt holes? Any idea what you torqued it to? How long after you installed it did it happen? Did you hit a big pothole or anything?

Now I'm really worried about this weekend and two days of racing on Hoosiers. Wish me luck

Norm Peterson

The bolts themselves are smaller diameter than the full size OE bolts - they have to be, else you wouldn't have any clearance between the bolt shank and the holes that is where the adjustment capability comes from. That makes it a lot easier to overstress/overtorque them on installation.

A smaller bolt is also affected more if the outer faces of the pieces being bolted together are not parallel to each other for any reason. If the strut tabs are bent, or if there is a burr, piece of grit, or what-not trapped between the pieces being bolted together, this will put some bending in the bolt, which the smaller bolt is again more sensitive to.

The little cam that provides the adjustment creates a localized stress intensification due to the sudden change in cross section and any sharp-corner notch effects that may also be present. Effectively the stress at such locations can approach double what it is in the same bolt only a short distance away.

The situation with crash bolts is that there is a lot less room between the minimum tightness required for the joint and the maximum that the bolt is capable of reliably withstanding.


Norm

Norm Peterson

It's unlikely that both pieces will fall completely out of the joint before you should be noticing that something is amiss. Once the holes don't line up well enough, the piece with the cam on it probably can't fall out. In this situation, you would not want to use maximum braking for anything short of not hitting a course worker or a fixed object such as a light pole. Max braking would be the max knuckle bending event that you'd really not want to have happen.

Edit - you may be able to loop a length of wire around the nuts and bolt heads to help keep them at least sort of captive.

I'm thinking that the worst cases involve either max cornering or max braking in combination with severe lot roughness - broken pavement, short choppy frost heaves, running over a sunken drainage grate, etc. IOW, the kinds of things that the organizers shouldn't be including as intentional course challenges. This adds an impact factor to the mix, which multiplies the forces seen by the tire treads, your seat, and everything in between by a factor somewhat greater than 1 (but probably less than 2). I realize that on some of the smaller lots, avoiding all bumps may be unavoidable, though the worst ones should always be left off the fast line.


Norm

ChrisMan287

iTrader: (34)

I was local so I was able to drive it home. They were installed on the upper bolt holes torqued to 140ft/lbs I believe. It was a few months after I installed them. Maybe mine was just faulty from the jump. The other one was fine but I went back to OEM after that.

Good look brother. Definitely report back after the weekend.

95maxrider

iTrader: (32)

Well thankfully the camber bolts held up through the back to back events last weekend, and the car felt pretty great. I need to start a 2013 results thread, but for now here are some pics of the shock towers/caster plates

95maxrider

iTrader: (32)

So after one month, the new delrin LCA bushings are already making a terrible noise after they got wet. I'm very close to putting in ES poly and just being done with it. I'm so tired of my car sounding like it's going to fall apart when it goes over every little dip in the road. Ugh....

95maxrider

iTrader: (32)

Oh, and I started my 2013 results thread, if anyone is interested in some pictures and videos of my mayhem.