Feeler: Beefier front sway bar end links?

*ThurzNite* · 11-04-2009, 08:25 AM

I've seen these in other cars.
1) Would it help Maximas to get beefier ones? How so?
2) Should it be adjustable?
3) Does it matter if the heim joint is sealed or covered with a rubber boot like the stock one?
4) Would you be interested in buying if I had them made?
5) How much would you pay?

[mist max2000] informed me below that 3rd and 6th gens already have upgraded links. So the ones I'm thinking about will target 4th and 5th gens. Thanx mist max2000 for the clarification.

Thanks guys.

Interested parties:
1) The Law [5th]
2) MoncefA33 [5th]
3) Rochester [5th]
4) 98SEBlackMax [4th]
5) mist max2000 [5th]
6) a33i30 [5th]
7) doublea [5th]

Dr J

mist max2000 · 11-04-2009, 09:27 AM

i think you need to be more specific towards which generation crowd your talking to.. FWIW- matt blhem (blhemco) made endlinks for 3rd gen.. not sure about 4th,..i know alot of 5 gen guys use moog endlinks,.. and i know 6th gen guys have racingline endlinks available to them,...

*ThurzNite* · 11-04-2009, 10:18 AM

Good point, I didn't kno there were endlinks for other gens. I'm shooting for 4th and 5th gens. The moogs are OEM, and not really upgraded, am I correct?

Dr J

mist max2000 · 11-04-2009, 11:54 AM

well.. they are beefier in bushing size compared to OEM,.. yet are stated as an oem replacement,.. so take that for what its worth,..they also have a greese gun fitting so you can keep them fresh...

feel to educate me on how better endlinks would help in terms of suspension?,..in terms of,.. if the SE sway bar is only 23mm,.. isnt there only so far that can be pushed with better endlinks with out being upgraded to a bigger size(which doesnt exist) ? or am i completly wrong..

on that note the moog endlinks are ~30 for the set,.. i know aftermarket would be significantly more,.. but are oem endlinks that big of a design flaw to justify an aftermarket set in terms of performance..

...dont get me wrong the more aftermarket availability the better as long as its justified

EDIT: just read this thread Racingline FRONT end links - INSTALLED!!!! seem like they greatly improved turn in ...a good read with pics..

EDIT II: might want to look at this thread and maybe contact this member about building if you dont have a contact already.. seems to have a good know-how yet busy with a current project.. Making some traction rods, who wants some?

njmaxseltd · 11-04-2009, 12:23 PM

I honestly don't see how those links made that much of a dif. in the way the car handles. Placebo effect perhaps? There can't be much, if any flex in the OE link.
The 4th gen is also configured much differently. We have a bushing set up vers the full ball joint set up on the 6th gen. The greatest improvement for our links is to simply install a harder bushing at the end of the link that connect to the sway bar. It would also make sense to upgrade the sway bar bushings to firmer rubber as well. All this is currently available to us already. I can't see how changing the diameter of the rod could possible change anything. Adjustments? What's to adjust?

The only way to dial in the amount of sway or anti sway is to change the diameter of the actual sway bar.

*ThurzNite* · 11-04-2009, 01:04 PM

A lot of us are lowered, which would change the geometry of the sway bar. It'll be more vertical than stock. Do you think it would change handling if shorter endlinks were installed?

And just thinking abstractly right now... is there a way to pre-tension the sway bar? Like if I know an auto-x course runs clockwise, with a fast tight right turn in the middle of the course, would pre-tensioning the sway benefit?

Just throwing ideas around for discussion, with the possibility of getting some mass produced if there's a demand.

Dr J

njmaxseltd · 11-04-2009, 02:18 PM

You have a few good points there. A shorter link might just put the sway bar at a more ideal position. I would think the flatter the bar sits on the chassis, the better it will perform. As far as auto-x goes, again that makes sense for adjustability.
Offer the firmer bushings as well for a complete package.

*The Law* · 11-04-2009, 02:25 PM

I would want them either way, just to add to my suspension collection

*ThurzNite* · 11-04-2009, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by njmaxseltd

Offer the firmer bushings as well for a complete package.

I'm on the border about the bushings. From what I remember the stock links don't have bushings. I was leaning towards using a spacer, or have a specially made stud.

I pulled this pic from another site

Dr J

MoncefA33 · 11-04-2009, 03:44 PM

I'd buy them for my fifth.

njmaxseltd · 11-05-2009, 08:27 AM

The link's connection to the sway bar is where the bushings are on the 4th gens.

Rochester · 11-05-2009, 08:52 AM

That 6th gen info was a good read, Mist_Max. And those Racingline endlinks look sexy and far more serious than OEM. Some good pictures there.

For our 5th Gen on the FSB endlinks, I'd like to see a picture or photoshop mock up of the proposal. The MOOG endlinks seem plenty sturdy, and I'm thinking there's not so much length to the device as to warrant a beefier design. Plus, at only $15... well, that's barely the cost of lunch.

Anyway, put me down as skeptical but interested.

*ThurzNite* · 11-05-2009, 10:29 AM

Rochester, in your pic, what are those little gold pieces for?

And yeah, I dunno how end links in 4th and 5th gens would be considered a performance adder, and that's why I was asking.

Dr J

Rochester · 11-05-2009, 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThurzNite

Rochester, in your pic, what are those little gold pieces for?

And yeah, I dunno how end links in 4th and 5th gens would be considered a performance adder, and that's why I was asking.

Those look like grease fittings, to repack the bushings. Yes?

***Jeff92se*** · 11-05-2009, 11:33 AM

Link to the 6th gen information? FYI the Z and G guys already have adju end links available from spl etc.. Not cheap though. But you have to use a sealed unit and use a quality end link. Or else dirt will ruin them and they will start to clunk and rattle.

I believe the aftermarket guys use Aurora end links.
diy idea
http://www.8thcivic.com/forums/do-yo...end-links.html

mist max2000 · 11-05-2009, 11:47 AM

Quote:

Link to the 6th gen information? FYI the Z and G guys already have adju end links available from spl etc.. Not cheap though. But you have to use a sealed unit and use a quality end link. Or else dirt will ruin them and they will start to clunk and rattle.

I believe the aftermarket guys use Aurora end links.
diy idea
http://www.8thcivic.com/forums/do-yo...end-links.html

post number four,.. you read to fast

Quote:

Originally Posted by mist max2000

well.. they are beefier in bushing size compared to OEM,.. yet are stated as an oem replacement,.. so take that for what its worth,..they also have a greese gun fitting so you can keep them fresh...

feel to educate me on how better endlinks would help in terms of suspension?,..in terms of,.. if the SE sway bar is only 23mm,.. isnt there only so far that can be pushed with better endlinks with out being upgraded to a bigger size(which doesnt exist) ? or am i completly wrong..

on that note the moog endlinks are ~30 for the set,.. i know aftermarket would be significantly more,.. but are oem endlinks that big of a design flaw to justify an aftermarket set in terms of performance..

...dont get me wrong the more aftermarket availability the better as long as its justified

EDIT: just read this thread Racingline FRONT end links - INSTALLED!!!! seem like they greatly improved turn in ...a good read with pics..

EDIT II: might want to look at this thread and maybe contact this member about building if you dont have a contact already.. seems to have a good know-how yet busy with a current project.. Making some traction rods, who wants some?

Rochester · 11-05-2009, 06:54 PM

Coincidentally, there's an end-link thread going on in the 5th gen forum.

Check out this picture of the OEM end link next to the MOOG endlink. Interesting.

Staticxout2 · 11-05-2009, 07:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rochester

Coincidentally, there's an end-link thread going on in the 5th gen forum.

Check out this picture of the OEM end link next to the MOOG endlink. Interesting.

this might be a really stupid idea but i'm going to throw it out there even though i'll probably get flamed. But what if you cut the Moog endlink in the middle took out a little chunk and thread both ends and put one of those joining kinda nuts like what the Torque link from NWP setup is like...wouldn't that make it adjustable

Nelsito65 · 11-05-2009, 08:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rochester

Coincidentally, there's an end-link thread going on in the 5th gen forum.

Check out this picture of the OEM end link next to the MOOG endlink. Interesting.

Hey Rochester, that picture is copyrighted. My attorney will be in contact with you......

Rochester · 11-05-2009, 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nelsito65

Hey Rochester, that picture is copyrighted. My attorney will be in contact with you......

Sorry, man. That's a great picture, nicely demonstrating the differences in design between the OEM end-link and the MOOG. I've been wanting to know what the difference is, and BAM! you go an post that picture.

I snagged it because, well, photobucket stuff doesn't exactly last forever.

Nelsito65 · 11-05-2009, 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rochester

Sorry, man. That's a great picture, nicely demonstrating the differences in design between the OEM end-link and the MOOG. I've been wanting to know what the difference is, and BAM! you go an post that picture.

I snagged it because, well, photobucket stuff doesn't exactly last forever.

Hope you know I was only kidding, bro. You are right about photobucket, you never know these days which one is the next web site to go kaput.... (I always give mental compliments of your sig picture, BTW)

Rochester · 11-06-2009, 07:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nelsito65

Hope you know I was only kidding, bro. You are right about photobucket, you never know these days which one is the next web site to go kaput.... (I always give mental compliments of your sig picture, BTW)

I pretty much thought you were kidding.

"Mental complements" on my sig picture? Thanks! You just made my day. Random acts of kindness are priceless.

Guys, how often should those MOOG end-links get repacked? Annually, or based on miles?

ridinwitha35 · 11-06-2009, 07:46 AM

Beefier???!!?? Noooooo!!!

PS: Don't take this post seriously; I've got a thread in the 5th gen section contemplating on whether or not the Moog aftermarket end-links are too beefy! Sounds like it's just me though.

*djfrestyl* · 11-06-2009, 08:08 AM

^^ It's just you

In for outcomes, curious about the product to be designed.

*ThurzNite* · 11-06-2009, 08:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by djfrestyl

In for outcomes, curious about the product to be designed.

As the title states, the thread's a feeler, wanna see if people are interested. If so, how much would they spend, and then I can go hunt for a good deal on good parts. I won't start production unless I get serious buyers lined up. PM me if you've got any other ideas on new maxima part with ample demands worth my effort to create. Thx!

Dr J

mist max2000 · 11-06-2009, 09:57 AM

well lets start here,..

do you have any background in anything like this?

what do you think you would be able to produce these for a set where it would be worth your time and parts,..just ball park it,.. give or take x amount...u know?

*ThurzNite* · 11-06-2009, 11:14 AM

Like I said, if there's no demand, I won't bother with this. It started out with 1 orger asking me about upgraded end links. I asked around non maxima owners what they were doing and found that heim joints were the key, paired with some good tubing. However, I was informed that in our application of low stress (compared to off-road) and minimal necessity for adjustments (does length really matter? can we pre-tension the swaybar?) sorta made upgraded endlinks pointless.

The original org member insists on having these made. I was wondering if there's a demand in upgraded end-links. If no demand, then I'm dropping this. If there's a demand, I'll do the research.

The minimum run I'll do is 10. I'd like to do 20. These will be pre-pay, in part or whole, depends on how many people want them. The reason is cuz I still haven't broke even on the .org lanyards (check my sig).

Edit: I'm gonna call up a few places and price them for 10 and 20 sets. I'll also need a local 4th and 5th gen to take measurements from. Finally, I'd like to hear from people to see if shorter or longer end links make a difference.

Dr J

mist max2000 · 11-06-2009, 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mist max2000

well lets start here,..

do you have any background in anything like this?

what do you think you would be able to produce these for a set where it would be worth your time and parts,..just ball park it,.. give or take x amount...u know?

...

Quote:

Like I said, if there's no demand, I won't bother with this. It started out with 1 orger asking me about upgraded end links. I asked around non maxima owners what they were doing and found that heim joints were the key, paired with some good tubing. However, I was informed that in our application of low stress (compared to off-road) and minimal necessity for adjustments (does length really matter? can we pre-tension the swaybar?) sorta made upgraded endlinks pointless.

The original org member insists on having these made. I was wondering if there's a demand in upgraded end-links. If no demand, then I'm dropping this. If there's a demand, I'll do the research.

The minimum run I'll do is 10. I'd like to do 20. These will be pre-pay, in part or whole, depends on how many people want them. The reason is cuz I still haven't broke even on the .org lanyards (check my sig).

Dr J

...that sounds like a politician's answer

...so we'll skip your background with cars if you can make them you can make them...

any idea on price? lets start here,... north or south of 75 for the set?(estimated)

oh.. and i am def interested thats why i keep trolling this thread.. just need to know a very rough ball park price before i put my name on anything..

mist max2000 · 11-06-2009, 11:49 AM

hey just an idea,.. you should get some threads going in the 4g and 5 g sections that direct link traffic over here to get a better feel for feedback,.. i dont think alot of people check the general section,.. only time i do before i found this, is when the 5g section is really boring lol , . . .just my .02

*ThurzNite* · 11-06-2009, 11:58 AM

LOL, yes, it's very generalized and I didn't say much. This's a crowd-source project, orgers will dictate the quality and prices they want. I've been here long enough to see that many will get a $20 ebay FSTB, some will do a $100 Stillen FSTB, and a handful will go for $150 Cattman's Titanium FSTB. The 6th gen links going for $75 seems high for the materials they're using. I'll do them for less than $75, I'm pretty sure I can source same or better heims for less. I'll say $75 shipped is the cap. However it's gonna be tough doing better than the $30 Moogs, assuming the above post means $15/side.

Dr J

*98SEBlackMax* · 11-06-2009, 12:15 PM

Adjustable sway bar end links would be nice. They are on my list of things to do for my car. For some reason the sway bar on my '96 has alot of preload in it that needs to be dialed out. On tight turns at some roadcourses I suspect the front sway bar is binding from to much preload. With new sway bar bushings that were ground down a little bit on the passenger side I was able to remove some preload but not all of it. I could use shims on the other bushing or get adjustable endlinks to fix the problem once and for all.

IMO only the more hardcore setups would benefit from adjustable end links. People get a benefit from changing the worn out OEM end links with aftermarket ones with stiffer bushings and as such feel some performace gain.

I think the 5th gens MIGHT be able to use the 300ZX front adjustable endlinks from SPL. If they can't Whiteline sells universal adjustable endlinks in that 5th gen style. 4th gen endlinks are a bit more goofy and would need something custom to work, SPL might have something that would work I'm not sure yet. I've contemplated making a 5th gen sway bar fit on my '96 so I can easily get adjustable end links.

*ThurzNite* · 11-06-2009, 12:54 PM

Thanx for the info, that's what I was looking for, some validation. I will look into cross referencing across models and generations. I've got a couple of leads from prior research, just never hit the 'Go' button on them cuz wasn't sure how many people would be interested.
Dr J

mist max2000 · 11-06-2009, 12:58 PM

thats the answer i was looking for

add me to the list

*ThurzNite* · 11-06-2009, 02:08 PM

Ok, I've looked around at other cars to see what they were doing, and I am looking at parts sources. 4th gens, I'm gonna try to get them done for $50shipped. The toughest part is gonna be sourcing good quality bushings.

5th gens, about $60 shipped? Will update more after lunch and calling around.

Dr J

mist max2000 · 11-08-2009, 08:54 AM

sounds cool.. just remember.. pictures sell

a33i30 · 11-09-2009, 10:00 PM

Hm, interesting, I might be in for these.

doublea · 11-11-2009, 08:04 PM

I'd be interested in adjustable one, ( 5th gen ) 60$ sound reasonable. Check what I did with the Moog.

*ThurzNite* · 11-11-2009, 08:30 PM

Very nice! What did you do about the bushing rubber part?

Sorry for the lack of updates. Yearly reviews are up, and it's been a PITA. Will make time to move fwd with endlinks.

Dr J

Nelsito65 · 11-19-2009, 07:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cell.Phone

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Basic Facts (and some rumors): The M1 went through several preliminary designs (e.g. the BMW turbo (2 units made), not to be confused with the 2002 turbo) before the design was finalized. Project E26 (1976) was really the first look at what would become the production M1. Lamborghini was originally supposed to do much of the production, but their financial woes ultimately prevented this, so BMW got a bunch of companies together (T.I.R., ItalDesign, Ital Engineering, Baur) to do design, fabrication and assembly.

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And your point would be.........? ...(the advertising in your signature, maybe?)

ridinwitha35 · 11-20-2009, 12:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nelsito65

And your point would be.........?

...spamming. This guy goes to random threads, does a google on a topic or concept mentioned in a thread, then copy & pastes text from results.