View Poll Results: Otto vs Custom Enterprise
Otto
16
34.04%
Custom Enterprise
13
27.66%
other (specify)
18
38.30%
Voters: 47. You may not vote on this poll
Newbie’s question – FSTB
09-18-2005, 11:04 PM
#1
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Newbie’s question – FSTB
Hey guys, I’m finally up to getting myself an FSTB I had no doubts till today that I was ganna get Otto, but today went to Custom Enterprise website and discovered that they have there own tower brace. Price is about the same, what do you guys think I should get?
Please don’t blame me for newbie’s thread... had to ask for opinions...
Please don’t blame me for newbie’s thread... had to ask for opinions...
09-19-2005, 10:23 AM
#5
Sure, they're all the same.... if you're paying $50 or less and don't have a really stiff suspension (i.e. coilovers).
If either one is not true for you, then try to shell out a little more for it. I have coilovers, so I got the Alutec one from Paradox Systems for $85, and it made a VERY big difference... nothing slight here.
If either one is not true for you, then try to shell out a little more for it. I have coilovers, so I got the Alutec one from Paradox Systems for $85, and it made a VERY big difference... nothing slight here.
09-19-2005, 10:42 AM
#7
Well I know I'm uber-sensitive to certain things in my car... probably a lot more so than most people... so I'll grant that what was a big difference to me might not be big to someone else.
I actually might have a chance to do a back-to-back comparo of different FSTBs this weekend. I'll post here if I find out anything interesting.
I actually might have a chance to do a back-to-back comparo of different FSTBs this weekend. I'll post here if I find out anything interesting.
09-19-2005, 11:26 AM
#8
I definitely felt a difference when I installed my Otto bar, but then a few weeks later I threw on Illuminas and S-techs and obvioulsly it was like night and day, so it's hard to say how much the bar attributed to that.
09-19-2005, 11:28 AM
#9
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Originally Posted by d00df00d
Sure, they're all the same.... if you're paying $50 or less and don't have a really stiff suspension (i.e. coilovers).
If either one is not true for you, then try to shell out a little more for it. I have coilovers, so I got the Alutec one from Paradox Systems for $85, and it made a VERY big difference... nothing slight here.
If either one is not true for you, then try to shell out a little more for it. I have coilovers, so I got the Alutec one from Paradox Systems for $85, and it made a VERY big difference... nothing slight here.
Originally Posted by d00df00d
Well I know I'm uber-sensitive to certain things in my car... probably a lot more so than most people... so I'll grant that what was a big difference to me might not be big to someone else.
I actually might have a chance to do a back-to-back comparo of different FSTBs this weekend. I'll post here if I find out anything interesting.
I actually might have a chance to do a back-to-back comparo of different FSTBs this weekend. I'll post here if I find out anything interesting.
09-19-2005, 04:09 PM
#10
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Originally Posted by d00df00d
Sure, they're all the same.... if you're paying $50 or less and don't have a really stiff suspension (i.e. coilovers).
If either one is not true for you, then try to shell out a little more for it. I have coilovers, so I got the Alutec one from Paradox Systems for $85, and it made a VERY big difference... nothing slight here.
If either one is not true for you, then try to shell out a little more for it. I have coilovers, so I got the Alutec one from Paradox Systems for $85, and it made a VERY big difference... nothing slight here.
09-19-2005, 10:04 PM
#11
That was the pricing for their September Sale, which ended on the 16th...
I still think $100 is a good deal though. People have been all over me about this but I'm sticking by my opinion that it feels at least as solid than the Stillen bar, and certainly a LOT more solid than the uber-cheap ones. Whether that makes a difference probably depends on your car, your driving, and your roads.
You coming to the Philly meet this Sunday? You could check it out in person...
I still think $100 is a good deal though. People have been all over me about this but I'm sticking by my opinion that it feels at least as solid than the Stillen bar, and certainly a LOT more solid than the uber-cheap ones. Whether that makes a difference probably depends on your car, your driving, and your roads.
You coming to the Philly meet this Sunday? You could check it out in person...
09-19-2005, 10:29 PM
#12
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Originally Posted by d00df00d
That was the pricing for their September Sale, which ended on the 16th...
I still think $100 is a good deal though. People have been all over me about this but I'm sticking by my opinion that it feels at least as solid than the Stillen bar, and certainly a LOT more solid than the uber-cheap ones. Whether that makes a difference probably depends on your car, your driving, and your roads.
You coming to the Philly meet this Sunday? You could check it out in person...
I still think $100 is a good deal though. People have been all over me about this but I'm sticking by my opinion that it feels at least as solid than the Stillen bar, and certainly a LOT more solid than the uber-cheap ones. Whether that makes a difference probably depends on your car, your driving, and your roads.
You coming to the Philly meet this Sunday? You could check it out in person...
Thanks, can’t come though. I got my first midterm next week and it is kind of long drive from here.
Btw: do you know why they designed it in such a way that it is secured by only two bolts from each side? As far as I understand, the force exerted at hard cornering is not evenly distributed which eventually might cause poor handling or something even worse.
these are the pics or 5th gen bar (very similar to 4th gen):
09-20-2005, 04:25 AM
#13
Well, first of all, I can't really say much about the performance of the 5th gen bar because.... I have a 4th gen, and I got the 4th gen bar, which IMO is pretty different. The 5th gen still looks like a pretty stout design to me, and I still think it'd be a better alternative than the Stillen bar because it's much cheaper, but since it's designed more like most FSTBs than the 4th gen one, I just don't have enough info to tell you whether it'd be as worth it for the money as the 4th gen one is.
I bought the 4th gen one because it's designed a lot more robustly than most bars we see in the US. Look at how broad the bar is, and look at where the bar attaches to the mounts: It's a heck of a tougher way to mount the thing than those thin attachment points on every single other FSTB for the Maxima:
In any case, look at it this way: The mounts are supposed to prevent any kind of lateral or twisting movement. If those two bolt holes hold the brackets flat against the strut towers and the nuts are tightened appropriately, you really only need two bolts -- one on each side of where the bar is welded to the mount. Just think about it and I'm sure you'll see it. Besides, most of the force exerted on the bar will be inward and outward, across the bar, and only some of it will be twisting or bending it anyway.
Not all cars have three strut/shock tower bolts, you know. Many only have two, and STBs for those cars don't work any less well.
EDIT: I got to see under the hood of a very new and very stock Camry Solara today after it rear-ended a van on the highway. There was a factory FSTB, and three shock/strut bolts, and lo and behold... the FSTB only mounted to two of the bolts, EXACTLY the same way as the Alutec bar. Just figured I'd mention that.
I bought the 4th gen one because it's designed a lot more robustly than most bars we see in the US. Look at how broad the bar is, and look at where the bar attaches to the mounts: It's a heck of a tougher way to mount the thing than those thin attachment points on every single other FSTB for the Maxima:
In any case, look at it this way: The mounts are supposed to prevent any kind of lateral or twisting movement. If those two bolt holes hold the brackets flat against the strut towers and the nuts are tightened appropriately, you really only need two bolts -- one on each side of where the bar is welded to the mount. Just think about it and I'm sure you'll see it. Besides, most of the force exerted on the bar will be inward and outward, across the bar, and only some of it will be twisting or bending it anyway.
Not all cars have three strut/shock tower bolts, you know. Many only have two, and STBs for those cars don't work any less well.
EDIT: I got to see under the hood of a very new and very stock Camry Solara today after it rear-ended a van on the highway. There was a factory FSTB, and three shock/strut bolts, and lo and behold... the FSTB only mounted to two of the bolts, EXACTLY the same way as the Alutec bar. Just figured I'd mention that.
09-21-2005, 04:37 PM
#18
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finally
After a lot of research, discussions and thinking I came to conclusion that I am getting OTTO FSTB. Let me try to justify my decision:
The bars I considered were: Alutec from Paradox Systems, Stillen, Cattman, Custom Enterprise, ‘ebay’, and otto.
1. Paradox systems seems to be the beefiest of the group, but for some reason I still think that two bolt design is not the best for the car which was designed with three bolts (no offence, d00df00d, I might be wrong, but by getting this bar I am not ganna have that piece of mind that everything is the way it’s supposed to be.)
2. Stillen is a very good bar, many positive responses, but pricy.
3. Cattman, probably the best FSTB, made out of titanium unlike all other bars which are made of aluminum. However, $195 scares me away.
4. Custom Enterprise bar has a respected name, but on picture does not look any different than standard generic bars. Very little information is provided. Never seen anyone who has this bar. Low poll rating at the top of this thread.
5. ebay or generic bars…the thing that makes me stay away from them is the fitment problems. There were many cases there the bar was rubbing over the engine parts not fitting properly etc. They are all different so basically, if you are lucky you might get something as good as Paradox or Cattman for 30 bucks, but if you are not so lucky, you might get something that is very weak and something that needs modification in order to fit under the hood.
6. Otto –popular, good fit and finish, high poll rating at the top of this thread, many positive responses even from those who bough it after they had an ebay bar. According to the picture it looks like the brackets are made out of still. Also one thing that I found out is that it’s a copy of Stillen bar for $60.
The bars I considered were: Alutec from Paradox Systems, Stillen, Cattman, Custom Enterprise, ‘ebay’, and otto.
1. Paradox systems seems to be the beefiest of the group, but for some reason I still think that two bolt design is not the best for the car which was designed with three bolts (no offence, d00df00d, I might be wrong, but by getting this bar I am not ganna have that piece of mind that everything is the way it’s supposed to be.)
2. Stillen is a very good bar, many positive responses, but pricy.
3. Cattman, probably the best FSTB, made out of titanium unlike all other bars which are made of aluminum. However, $195 scares me away.
4. Custom Enterprise bar has a respected name, but on picture does not look any different than standard generic bars. Very little information is provided. Never seen anyone who has this bar. Low poll rating at the top of this thread.
5. ebay or generic bars…the thing that makes me stay away from them is the fitment problems. There were many cases there the bar was rubbing over the engine parts not fitting properly etc. They are all different so basically, if you are lucky you might get something as good as Paradox or Cattman for 30 bucks, but if you are not so lucky, you might get something that is very weak and something that needs modification in order to fit under the hood.
6. Otto –popular, good fit and finish, high poll rating at the top of this thread, many positive responses even from those who bough it after they had an ebay bar. According to the picture it looks like the brackets are made out of still. Also one thing that I found out is that it’s a copy of Stillen bar for $60.
09-21-2005, 07:53 PM
#20
I had the eBay bar which was replaced with an Otto... there is a slight difference, as far as I can tell... 
http://forums.maxima.org/showthread.php?t=412478
http://forums.maxima.org/showthread.php?t=412478
09-22-2005, 04:44 PM
#22
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I just got my FSTB from lssexhaust.com, my question is do all the bolts/screws have to be tight or the first one that comes right after the 3 on top of the strut have to be loose to allow up and down movement? (i'm not talking about the bolt that adjust the bar's lenght, the other one on each side)
09-29-2005, 07:45 AM
#26
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Ok, my FSTB has finally arrived. So far I am not disappointed in the bar. It is made of a VERY thick aluminum and the brackets are made of steel. Now, that I am ready to install I have a few questions about the process:
1. To what torque should I tighten the nuts to? Every source says something different. .org how-to says 30 +/- 2 Haynes Manual says 39 – 54
2. How much should I tighten the bolts that secure the bar to its brackets?
3. .org how-to says something about expanding the bar further apart.
I don’t seem to understand the reason. At hard cornering the outside tire does more than 50% of the job because of the weigh shift. Centrifugal force is trying to push it under the body of the car, therefore, the strut tower is moving in the opposite direction (away from the center) In order to prevent this the brackets should be as close together as possible. What do you, people, think about it?
1. To what torque should I tighten the nuts to? Every source says something different. .org how-to says 30 +/- 2 Haynes Manual says 39 – 54
2. How much should I tighten the bolts that secure the bar to its brackets?
3. .org how-to says something about expanding the bar further apart.
Loosely place the front strut bar in the holes and press down so that the brackets are FLUSH with the body. Once they are, EXPAND the bar, so they're a bit snug, by either rotating the strut bar so that the bases get further apart, or removing the brackets and loosening it . You want to have it set farther apart to push the two struts apart, causing more structural rigidity.
09-29-2005, 09:05 AM
#27
I torqued both my strut nuts and my FSTB bolts to 60 lbs-ft. Don't sweat it too much... 10 lbs-ft here or there won't really make a difference.
As far as the thing about the brackets and cornering forces... You may be right that cornering may push the strut towers outward, but also bear in mind that running over a bump will exert force that pushes the strut towers closer together.
What you're thinking of is preloading the strut towers, either by exerting outward push or inward pull. Sometimes people do that because they find that they experience one kind of stress (pushing or pulling) more than another, so all they do is dial in the opposite force. Too much preload, of course, will somewhat exaggerate the effect of certain forces (i.e. if you pull the brackets in too much, your strut towers will flex inward more easily).
But in this case, what's being suggested is to dial in a very small amount of preload, just to keep the bar snug. That amount won't even make a shred of difference in your handling or ride.
Just make it snug and leave it at that.
As far as the thing about the brackets and cornering forces... You may be right that cornering may push the strut towers outward, but also bear in mind that running over a bump will exert force that pushes the strut towers closer together.
What you're thinking of is preloading the strut towers, either by exerting outward push or inward pull. Sometimes people do that because they find that they experience one kind of stress (pushing or pulling) more than another, so all they do is dial in the opposite force. Too much preload, of course, will somewhat exaggerate the effect of certain forces (i.e. if you pull the brackets in too much, your strut towers will flex inward more easily).
But in this case, what's being suggested is to dial in a very small amount of preload, just to keep the bar snug. That amount won't even make a shred of difference in your handling or ride.
Just make it snug and leave it at that.
09-29-2005, 07:25 PM
#32
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svc manual says 32-38 ft/lbs.
when the suspension compresses from a hard turn, the top of the strut on the outside of the turn is pushed towards the center of the car.
pivot is the lower control arm bushing, force is applied to the wheel upwards. besides, the bar isnt to keep the outer wheel/suspension in place, it should be stable... the bar keeps the other wheel better planted, from weight shift by keeping the chassis from 'folding'.
think of it as a big taco.
when the suspension compresses from a hard turn, the top of the strut on the outside of the turn is pushed towards the center of the car.
pivot is the lower control arm bushing, force is applied to the wheel upwards. besides, the bar isnt to keep the outer wheel/suspension in place, it should be stable... the bar keeps the other wheel better planted, from weight shift by keeping the chassis from 'folding'.
think of it as a big taco.
09-30-2005, 06:48 AM
#34
Originally Posted by DrKlop
Don’t you need to push the top of the strut on the inside of the turn toward the center of the car to keep the chassis from folding?
Originally Posted by BewstAdd1ct
force is applied to the wheel upwards.
09-30-2005, 09:59 AM
#35
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I am confused here… the force is applied to the wheel upwards when there’s a load on the wheel (outside wheels) the inside wheels should experience the decrease of a load.
09-30-2005, 10:53 AM
#37
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man, I got even more confused take a look at this, what do you think about it (both, first and second pages)
http://e30m3performance.com/myths/St...bar_theory.htm
http://e30m3performance.com/myths/St...bar_theory.htm
09-30-2005, 12:15 PM
#38
Great site. Great article.
This part sums it all up perfectly:
Therefore, big inward preload will fight the cornering force but won't help the bumps at all; big outward preload will do the opposite.
But that's only with big preloads. Just making it fit snugly does NOT involve big preloads, so that balance (helping cornering more vs. helping bumps more) won't really be tilted one way or the other.
This part sums it all up perfectly:
Originally Posted by http://e30m3performance.com/myths/Strutbar_Theory/strut_bar_comp.htm
Cornering on smooth asphalt induces tension. Driving in a straight line over bumps induces compression.
But that's only with big preloads. Just making it fit snugly does NOT involve big preloads, so that balance (helping cornering more vs. helping bumps more) won't really be tilted one way or the other.
09-30-2005, 01:59 PM
#39
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Ok, so the bottom line is:
If the distance between the FSTB brackets is set to the smallest possible, the bar helps in cornering.
If the distance between the brackets is set to the longest possible, the bar prevents body flex over bumps.
Therefore, the quote from how-to which I pasted when I first addressed this question (post # 26) describes how to make your car better over bumps, not for high-g cornering.
Correct?
If the distance between the FSTB brackets is set to the smallest possible, the bar helps in cornering.
If the distance between the brackets is set to the longest possible, the bar prevents body flex over bumps.
Therefore, the quote from how-to which I pasted when I first addressed this question (post # 26) describes how to make your car better over bumps, not for high-g cornering.
Correct?
09-30-2005, 03:15 PM
#40
Originally Posted by DrKlop
Ok, so the bottom line is:
If the distance between the FSTB brackets is set to the smallest possible, the bar helps in cornering.
If the distance between the brackets is set to the longest possible, the bar prevents body flex over bumps.
If the distance between the FSTB brackets is set to the smallest possible, the bar helps in cornering.
If the distance between the brackets is set to the longest possible, the bar prevents body flex over bumps.
Originally Posted by DrKlop
Therefore, the quote from how-to which I pasted when I first addressed this question (post # 26) describes how to make your car better over bumps, not for high-g cornering.
Correct?
Correct?
Originally Posted by d00df00d
Just making it fit snugly does NOT involve big preloads, so that balance (helping cornering more vs. helping bumps more) won't really be tilted one way or the other.