What labor guide is better? Chiltons VS. Motor VS. Mitchell VS. Alldata?

*5thgenmaxima* · 01-10-2008, 09:54 PM

This question is mostly for other techs out there who are flat rate and have (or have had) access to at least two sources.
Our dealership used to go off of warranty time and mark c-pay work up a certain percentage...We also used to add .5 to 1.0 for diag if needed...Effective TODAY we have new policies.
After lenghty discussions (arguments) with our new owners and our service advisors it has been decided FOR us that we are no longer to use the warranty time + mark up...We can ONLY use the big companies...Chiltons, Motor, alldata, etc..........This is what independent shops use, so I guess it is fair.
IN ADDITION, and the BIG kicker is this....Unless it says to add for diag, we do not get paid for diag....They "assume" motor, chiltons, Mitchell and alldata R&R time has "diag" built in.....
We used to get overlapping time for diag and the repair, which has been taken away..I understand that...What gets me is their taking away our diag for items that are not overlapping...
Example is a ect sensor on a high idle/rich running engine...To diag a bad ect you put a thermometer in the coolant reservoir and compare the true temp readings to the readings on the scan tool..This step is obviously after checking fuel trims, fuel pressure, etc....This is diag that isn't included in the labor time and we should be paid for it..
We have access to alldata and that's it....I don't see any diag time in alldata, NONE. I also don't see any disclaimers saying that it is not built in.... If I look up ect replacement I get R&R time and that's it....no diag time..and the time says for "parts and labor" it doesn't say includes diag....They tell me that the big three say to add so many tenths for diag of a certain component, but I don't see it....I got on mitchells website and according to them they say that diag time is "not included" in their R&R time....see the link.
.http://www.mitchellsupport.com/ondemand5/how.asp
Do the book companies ... Chiltons, Motor, Mitchell...Have diag time in their book for all items...For example a thermostat or ect sensor?? What about diag time for a window regulator or pressure testing a cooling system?? What about diagnosing a check engine light for a evap code...Do they add diag time for test drives or pinpointing chassis noises?? What about confirming power to a inop blower motor??
So I ask the other techs out there.. How do you charge for diag?? Also which of these books have the most inflated labor times...Obviously I'm going to bid the job out with the book that charges the most time... SO which book inflates their times the most and which one (if any) has more add lines for diag??

*Delvin* · 01-11-2008, 01:29 AM

The companies that I have worked for have always had a set rate for diagnostic time that the customer pays and the tech would recieve on top of the repair. I've worked with both Mitchell and ALLData and neither have diagnostic time factored into them. Diagnostic labor rates on the average is about 1.0-1.5hrs when it comes to runability, most electrical, and fault code reading/diagnostic. Certain things do require that extra labor is tacked on for diagnostic. For example diagnosing a bad horn. I'd charge the standard diagnostic charge and if all the electrical under the hood checks out then I'd add in the labor to R&R the horn pad. Of course if thats the culprit then that labor goes towards the actual repair but if lets say its the harness in the steering column then the labor would stay on. They should set some type of standard for diagnostic time since the tech has to spend their time figuring out what needs to be repaired in order to make any flat rate time. This is especially needed for those times that time is spent on the vehicle and the customer doesn't want to do any of the repairs.

Oh yeah, as for which labor guide is better I prefer ALLData since I'm most familiar with it. Both ALLData and Mitchell use a lot of the same labor times as the dealers do. Chiltons seems to always have lower rates than the others from what I have seen. Another thing I used to notice about Chiltons is that the labor rate for certain things was the same for all cars (like R&R front MacPherson strut). I haven't looked into their times in about 7 years so things may have changed.

z32drifter · 01-13-2008, 02:36 PM

I charge 1 hr for Diag, unless it's something stupid then I charge .5hr. I will include some repairs in diag if it's something small like a vac hose or easy to swap sensor. In those cases the customer pays 1.0 diag and the part cost. In a case where is have to spend my time testing and working on a car to determine the repairs needed they get charged 1.0 diag, I will ask for additional time on a complex problem or serious elect diag work. Repair times are just that "time to repair the car" diag is only included if repairs are made during the diag time. example.. If I have a MIL related to fuel trim and during testing I find a broken vac line on the intake, I will include the vac line repair in diag. Labor times are factored by either Rynolds or factory warranty time plus.

Not paying for diag is stupid and just going to cause people to "shotgun" car and throw parts at them, not the best way to keep customers.

*5thgenmaxima* · 01-13-2008, 08:20 PM

Rynolds labor time??? I'm not famalier with that one...BTW: I agree with the "shotgun" theory.. Effective the same day as no diag (unless it says to add for diag in the book) management is keeping a "come back log" to track how many come backs each person gets and the reason for the comeback...I think they have tried this method with some of the other dealerships they own and found your "shotgun" problem to be true.

*5thgenmaxima* · 01-13-2008, 08:28 PM

Nevermind I just googled reynolds..They have an agreement and use motor time..

z32drifter · 01-13-2008, 09:47 PM

The problem I have with "book" time is there are errors that cost us and customers money. Reynolds shows some stupid times for some operations, one page they show 8hrs to replace a t-belt then they show 10hr to r&r the motor. The book times should be used as a "guide", as a customer I would not want to pay 8hrs for a 2.0 t-belt that takes a few hours and as a tech I don't want to get paid 10hrs for a motor that takes 20hrs.

I have never seen diag time listed in any book, even the manufacture does not list diag time. VW,Toyota,Acura,BMW, and Porsche limit diag time to 1hr with support of punch times, beyond that you need auth from "tech line" or a factory rep if you expect to get paid for your diag time.

Personally if my service mgr told me I was only getting paid "book" r&r time for repairs, diag time was not going to be paid. I would tell them we need to negotiate my new pay plan, I would not work as a "flat rate" tech with out diag time. You will starve to death unless you have lots of inflated time service work. It's sad dealerships can't figure out why it's hard to get good techs, between getting screwed on warranty and the greedy dealers they are driving the quality people out.

*5thgenmaxima* · 01-16-2008, 07:52 PM

I work for GM and know a few people who work for other franchises..Both Domestic and Foreign... They all say the same thing as we do. Warranty pay is less and less...Companys are looking for a way to cut costs due to so much competition.. We had a guy in our shop tear a whole dash apart for a dash rattle on a 2007 Aura. Only thing left was the firewall . He got paid 4.5 hours for 3 days worth of work. I had to replace a dashboard on a Aura due to a scratch during shipping. Got paid 2 hours to do the whole job....On the flip side warranty pays 2.4 hours to R&R the hybrid batteries, which only takes about 1.5 hours.
As far as diag goes, we get .1-.3 depending on what the problem is as long as we have our story and punch times. Anymore than .3 requires an OLH (over limit hours) signature from the service manager. Anymore than 2 hours requires a call to our district rep..(never happens)....If we ask for even the .3 on over 50% of warranty repairs it typically ends up in an audit, so we take it sparingly.
You're right about good techs leaving dealers. We have gone thru 8 yes EIGHT techs in the year I've been there.. Our newest addition, the one who's been there for a month and a half just put his two weeks in yesterday. The 18 year master tech we hired on 6 months ago left 3 months ago for a salary job at an independent shop...Guaranteed pay check FTW...I know of numerous "old timers" getting jobs at factories and manufacturing plants because the money isn't there like it used to be....Personally, I've applied to two plants locally that have guaranteed OT every other week with great benefits. Problem is they require a degree in applied science (which I have) and a mandatory 3 years expereince (I only have 1 1/2 years experience. I don't want to leave due to the fact that I want my resume to show good work history when I finally do get 3 years experience)...
Z32 have you used Mitchell or do you guys work off of motor/alldata?

*ROCKART* · 01-17-2008, 06:48 AM

i have the 93-98 chiltons nissan maxima manual.

biggest piece of crap waste of 4 dollars i have had the agonizing displeasure of owning, ever.

**Greeny** · 01-17-2008, 06:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ROCKART

i have the 93-98 chiltons nissan maxima manual.

biggest piece of crap waste of 4 dollars i have had the agonizing displeasure of owning, ever.

This is about labor manuals/guides,not repair manuals.

*5thgenmaxima* · 01-17-2008, 10:16 PM

So I ordered a CD off of the internet called the "real-time labor guide". Comes with a free 45 day trial, then it costs $295 to buy...I mostly ordered it for the trial. Figured I might be impressed with the system. I'm not sure it's quite worth their asking price as some of these times seem REALLY flaky.. I was surprised by how "inflated" the times are. Not sure I would use these times on c-pay jobs, but for those aftermarket warranty companies that pay no diag and try to constantly screw us, I'll be using this CD as a reference of where I got my labor time from for sure...4.0 hours for a thermostat on a 3.0L opel engine..The 3.0L they used in the Catera, Vue and L series...Warranty pay is around 2.0 IIRC (The intake and spacer plate have to be removed.)...10 hours for a timing chain on a 2000 monte carlo with a 3.4....On the flip side it pays 2.6 for a upper plenum gasket on the 3.4 and 2.5 for the intake manifold gasket....Not always the best source, but definetly a good source to use for aftermarket warranty companies....Also says in their brochure that they "meet state estimate laws"

**MrGone** · 02-01-2008, 02:46 AM

Whatever one gives you the most time to complete the job

(all the dealers I know use the manufacture times)