Becoming Competitive

[Tatanko]

(preamble deleted)....

So, having experienced this and learning the limits of my mostly stock Maxima, I'm looking to upgrade in the coming months. I finish school in a month or so and I'll begin working again full time and will finally have money to spend again. As of right now, my car is mostly stock. It's a '95 SE w/ an auto tranny that essentially has an 00VI, y-pipe, cat-back, a tranny cooler (Hayden 401, so medium-sized), and a FSTB.

I'm here looking for suggestions. I will be doing autocrossing starting in 2 weeks and will likely continue to do so through the summer. We also have tons more events planned like yesterday's so I have to keep that in mind as well. It has opened my eyes to joys of driving in ways that aren't exclusive to a straight line. I've done it before, but never like I did yesterday. Keep in mind I won't have TONS of money to blow, but let me talk about my concerns with the car's current condition and maybe that will help you guys give me some ideas...

1. The brakes fade...badly. I have BRAND NEW rotors and pads on the car that were installed January and prior to yesterday only had ~400 miles on them. I don't think they were even properly bedded in until after yesterday's romp. I could use a *little* more stopping power, but am more concerned with the fact that I worked the brakes so hard yesterday they barely stopped the car by the end of it all.
2. I'm on stock SE suspension. The struts/shocks are not originals, I can tell you that, and are likely on their way out given some of the noises they make over hard bumps sometimes as well as the overall ride quality of the car getting progessively more "floaty." I am looking to finally lower the car this summer (after 3 years of owning it) and want something that will look nice, handle decently, and allow my every day travels to be at least somewhat comfortable (I don't want to have my teeth jarred driving around town).
3. My chassis began creaking towards the end of the day and I HATE how sloppy it is. Not much else to say there.
4. My tranny started slipping towards the end of the day despite the fact that I have a tranny cooler. Once we stopped driving hard it cooled back down and never slipped again, so I know it was a heat issue. The tranny cooler I have is not the biggest model, I know. Will simply upgrading to a larger one help me with this?
5. Is my strut tower bar even worth having on? It's an eBay unit, and some say those are junk because they are adjustable, but I beg to differ. It seems like I notice a difference in the steering response of the car with it off. Also, I fail to see how it's adjustable in length. Mine isn't, it has a set length. As it is, I have to almost put some pressure on it to get the bolts in on each end that hold it together as a unit.

So, is the A32 chassis a hopeless platform? I don't want to build a race car or even spend all that much money, just enough for a nice drop, some suspension tweaks, etc. It will all be done piece-by-piece, too, not all at once. That's all I have for now...comment away.

[LeVeL]

Originally Posted by Tatanko

It has opened my eyes to joys of driving in ways that aren't exclusive to a straight line.

Ah, yes - this is exactly what 99% of so-called "car guys" dont get. Congratulations - you are now on your way to getting addicted. Once you do your first autocross it will become your drug.

First of all you're already a better driver than your buddy in the STi unless he wasnt pushing the car - a stock STi will walk all over any stock-suspension maxima without a problem.

Second of all, if you really want to become a competitive autocrosser you will want a new car, preferably a miata or a civic, or something along those lines. An automatic land-boat of a maxima just isnt meant to be raced.

If you're sticking with the max then there are two paths you can take:
1) If you want to go as fast as possible and have fun then get moddin'
2) If you want to be competitive then you have to watch class restrictions carefully.
Either way the first thing you want to purchase is a set of good tires, like the Falken Azenis.

The most important thing to remember, however, is that autocross success is much much much more dependent on the driver than on the car. Read a lot, talk to a lot of old-timers, get them to ride along with you and critique your driving, ride with them on fun runs and watch what they do, and PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE. My buddy and his dad race their old 4-door civic lx on sh!tty stock suspension but no one in h-stock can touch them, including Si's. An even better example is a guy that autocrosses a STOCK 325i (only thing done to it is the tires - hoosiers) and he is the fastest in his class AND the class above. Have fun!

[Tatanko]

This is more going to be "lightly" (lowered, maybe a few other tweaks) modded car suspension-wise, in comparison to what's available in terms of parts. I am not looking to make this thing a race car, merely have fun with it on weekends. I'm really against getting another car as I don't think I have the money to spend on what I would really want, so I'm stuck with a car that must perform a couple different functions all in one, and I'm fine with that. I know it's no As it is, lots of guys in the car club are big into auto-x, so I have them to work with. A lot of them are VERY good, too, and we regularly have 4 or 5 people come in the top 3 in their class for the entire season.

Oh yeah, the STi driver, he's alright. By no means the best driver I've ever seen, but I don't think he's using the car to it's capabilities. He has a few auto-x sessions under his belt, but primarily in his previous car (an SRT-4). I think I surprised a lot of people yesterday though. They were expecting me to fall way, way behind and that wasn't the case at all I left the Legend driver way, way behind at times, actually.

[z32drifter]

I would start with the known weakness. You need a decent set of brake pads, something like the Hawk HPS. I would add a quality performance brake fluid and consider SS lines at the same time. For springs in part will depend on your struts, something like Eibach or Progress should give you performance with a decent ride.

If I was doing my car over again, I think I would go with a Koni/Ground control setup. Keep the drop small and I think that may be the best coilover alt for the A32. I'm not a big fan of progressive springs and I think most of the off the shelf springs lack the correct spring rates.

[Tatanko]

I don't know that I'll want to drop the kind of money required for coilovers...so what can I do on more of a budget? I hear all kinds of conflicting opinions on what setup to get, but the bottom line is I don't have $600+ to shell out for a coilover setup. I'd LIKE to, but I simply don't want to spend that kind of money on this car.

Brake pads, admittedly, could be better. These are BRAND NEW, so I will definitely keep them if I decide to replace them. Honestly, they're not bad for what I paid (like $25 shipped for the entire 4-corner set! [they were a wholesale closeout kind of deal from rockauto.com, but still OEM-spec pads]). I've also wanted SS lines for a long time. Would you recommend a specific brand/type of brake fluid when I go to do this?

Also, what's the consensus on Stage 1 LTB's? I hear good things about the Stage 2's, but it seems like few use the Stage 1 setup. Reason I ask is because Stage 1 is VERY, VERY affordable and that appeals to me, vs. $175 for the Stage 2 (which is an awesome bargain, but again, I have a budget).

[98SEBlackMax]

Consider the class of auto-x you want to compete in and mod your car accordingly. Im not a fan of auto-x but do a bit of road course stuff. A painful example is one of the clubs I've been thinking of joining. Though the modding rules are pretty tough and it's been keeping me away. Just a DEK or MEVI swap on a 4th gen puts you in Street Prepared B as does SFCs, chassis foam, VQ35 swaps, and any other engine modification from the throttle body to the bottom end. The majority of cars in SPB are barely street legal heavily modded STIs and EVOs. No chance in hell for a Maxima to win against these cars in that form. Not to mention it requires a roll bar, racing seats, and racing harnesses. So learn what's acceptable in each class and mod your car carefully or learn to cheat really good. If I had to do it all over for competition I would of modded my car differently or gotten a better car to start with.

Also I've run a couple HPDE events on stock SE suspension and I can tell you it was better than running Eibachs and AGXs. The car looks stupid with 17s and 24.4" tall R compounds with no drop. But I've gotten alot of from owners passing their cars that I had no business in passing. That alone is a good enough reason to keep modding this car. So sticky tires and lighter rims will go along way than the basic progressive spring/strut combos for Maximas. Also shorter tires make the car lower without messing up the suspension geometery and give more aggresive gearing. Though this season im switching over to a Koni/GC setup with Stillen camber plates to better compliment the R compound tires.

So far from my experience wheels/R compound Tires, Hawk HP+ brake pads with high temp brake fluid and SS lines, weight reduction, chassis stiffening, Camlock seat belt locks, driving gloves, and bending the rear beam to 0 toe have made the best improvements so far.

[Tatanko]

Wow, now there's some food for thought. Thanks for the input. Auto-x I don't plan on making a big deal out of. I'm more interested in weekend romps and perhaps some road racing once a month this summer. That's why I'm still trying to think in terms of "mild." As I put it in another thread, I don't think I'll ditch these wheels ever, even if I get another set of wheels/tires. If I do get another set, it will likely be 16" and I will probably only get them to clear bigger brakes if I need them. I'm just way too concerned with keeping gas mileage decent, keeping tires "cheap"(er), etc. That mindset may change this summer when I've got money from a full time job backing me though, we'll see.

[MorpheusZero]

Alright, I will give you plenty of advice but keep in mind the bottom line is that as long as you are regularly going on weekend romps you will never be fully satisfied with this car's handling capabilities.

In order of importance IMO:

1. Brake pads. HPS at the least, if you're willing to put up with more squeal and dust then go for HP+. FWIW, I went HPS and I am regretting not going HP+, but HPS is still a huge improvement over stock. Keep the stock/brembo blank rotors on there. HP+ will tear them up but they're like 50 bucks for a pair and the way I drive they only lasted one OEM pad change anyway. As for SS lines, I'd think anything could improve the spongy pedal feel but I am not sure how cost-efficient they are (plus, I don't know about you but I don't feel like bleeding brakes at the moment)

2. SFCs and suspension. LTB2 if you can find one. For some cost savings, just go for the 4-point side rails and nix the cross bracing for now. As for suspension I'd reccommend either Eibachs or GCs, and definitely throw some shortened Konis in the mix if you can afford to (they are worth the extra couple bills) if you can live with a harsh ride then try some AGX out for size I suppose, but IIRC they will still suffer from bottomitis even if you trim the bump stops. An RSB certainly wouldn't hurt the car although people will talk down on them, you will really only notice in hard turns that the rear tires seem to do something, whereas before they were just for decoration--whether dialing out a little understeer is worth it for you or not is up for you to decide. Throw some camber bolts on (like thirty bucks) and when you get an alignment ask the dude to dial in -1.5 degrees of camber, or just -1 if you are worried about tire wear and don't drive hard normally. I probably have camber set to about -2 degrees up front.

Really, you can forgo the suspension etc if you want to, but it really does help to control the car, and I can definitely say throwing my SFC'd, LTB'd, Koni'd Eibach'd 5 speed into the corners is quite a bit more fun than tossing it around when it was stock. It could turn when I asked it to, but it was not what you'd call confidence-inspiring. And trust me, I tested that car when it was stock.

There is also the geometry argument but the bottom line is the guys who care about handling get suspension and lower their car anyway. Don't slam it and the geometry will be decent although nowhere near stock. You won't notice though and will still be grinning when you first start driving the car around.

3. Wheels and tires... if you are on 15s and 175-section tires () you are going to experience plenty of sidewall roll. I'd suggest at some point you find an appropriate lightweight 16" wheel and run some 225/50s or 245/45s on thurr. (Hint: FD wheels freaking pwn)

As for tires, there is a tire called the Federal SS 595 available in 17" and up that is like 60 bucks a tire and performs on par with the RS2, RT615 etc, just keep that in mind. You might want to consider getting a cheap set of 16s and some RS2s as "track day/weekend" wheels if you really want to keep your fuel economy etc... but that would be a pain if you ask me.

4. Transmission. Seriously.

After seeing all this, remember that anything past the pads is going to start costing some serious money. I would not advise you to skimp, but at the same time you are looking into making a 13 year old Maxima quick in the twisties.

I have kept up with plenty of cars, as long as you have the balls it is not that hard. However I have found that I am usually trying harder than most others, and some people just cannot drive worth a damn

Anyway I'm really tired so I apologize if the post is a mess. Goodnight.

[G4nismo]

i'm in STS b/c i don't have LSD.
but def get your car dropped, i would suggest koni/ground control setup
(http://farnorthracing.com/autocross_secrets6.html), get your basic suspension stiffener components, FTST, LTB, RSB i think would be a big factor since our cars understeer a lot, decent tires (225 max width for STS), and even a BBK if you can afford it.

i did terrible at my last event b/c i kept understeering into cones and the tires aren't sticky enough. but yeh, just keep going out to events, practice, & learn how to improve your time every run.

[Tatanko]

Thanks for the tips so far, guys. I realize I'm never going to be satisfied with this car, hence why I'm not so willing to dump a TON of money into the suspension, chassis, and brakes. I just want to make the car a *little* more fun through the twisties and maybe participate in some events in the next couple years with it, that's all. The way I figure it, anything has to be better than stock. It is just so poorly setup.

Of course, if my dad decides to get a Miata this summer, all bets are off with this heap

[97SEdriver]

Originally Posted by 98SEBlackMax

Also I've run a couple HPDE events on stock SE suspension and I can tell you it was better than running Eibachs and AGXs. The car looks stupid with 17s and 24.4" tall R compounds with no drop. But I've gotten alot of from owners passing their cars that I had no business in passing. That alone is a good enough reason to keep modding this car. So sticky tires and lighter rims will go along way than the basic progressive spring/strut combos for Maximas. Also shorter tires make the car lower without messing up the suspension geometery and give more aggresive gearing. Though this season im switching over to a Koni/GC setup with Stillen camber plates to better compliment the R compound tires.

you serious?

I've run Pocono twice on my stock suspension, since then I've gone to progress/agx...but I have not gone back to Pocono since...nor any other road course.

I will be interested to see if I think my car handles worse or not.....I know it handles better on the street...but I know that means jack sh1t as far as road course driving up near 8/10ths-10/10ths is concerned.

[Tatanko]

Honestly I'm glad I really pushed the limits of the stock suspension FIRST, before deciding to upgrade. I think it's made me a better driver and will allow me to appreciate the upgrades more.

[Matt93SE]

My $0.02

0. Please don't do stuff like that on the street. If you do, don't post about it here. We'll give you advice on helping the car handle better, but we don't want to know you're taking it out and doing stuff in the twisties that's likely to get your or an innocent person killed. anything more than about 5/10 driving on the street is WELL past any legal speeds and has the potential for dire consequences. keep it on the track or don't post it here please.

1. BRAKES. you MUST have better brakes or you're going to wind up wrecking the car as your driving improves and you push the brakes even more.

stock rotors, Hawk HPS for street, HP+ for road course. good fluid- valvoline synpower or ATE Blue/yellow will be fine. don't bother with Motul or Castrol SRF or any of the other $$$$$ fluids. those two work fine.

2. suspension. eibach/progress springs and some good struts- illumina or AGX. set them about 60% stiff and throw the knobs away. you tune a shock for the spring rate on the car, NOT to the driving style you're doing. there is one proper setting, not ten. (unless your car has numbers and a rollcage and a team of engineers)

pick up a rear sway bar of some sort. Addco or progress or whoever makes them for the A32.

3. braces- the more chassis bracing the better, but don't spend your money here in your case.
I'd love to sell you a Stage I or II LTB, but your money is better spent on things like tires, sway bars, and springs that have a more direct impact on the handling.
Keep the ebay FSTB. it's definitely not hurting anything. the people that tell you they're crap cause they're adjustable are stupid. the bar will buckle in the middle before the adjuster bolts slide.

4. Tires. Tires are more important than anything else here, EXCEPT the brakes. better tires will make the car faster than everything else.... until you run out of brakes. the suspension problems will kinda cover themselves up, but the bad brakes will only get worse as your driving and tires improve.
for a beginner at auto X or a road course, keep street tires on the car for AT LEAST your first season. don't even think about going to r comps until you've got many hours on the track.


4A... wheels. stockers are okay, but for good handling you want wider tires and wheels. in order to do that, you'll probably have to go to 17" wheels. tire prices for 16 to 17" aren't that much more, but your handling will get significantly better. unfortunately that also means your ride will get a bit worse with less sidewall to absorb the sharp bumps in the road.

[Tatanko]

Originally Posted by Matt93SE

keep it on the track or don't post it here please.

No problem, my apologies.

Thanks for some specifics. I'm learning more than I intended with this thread, which is never a bad thing, but I also appreciate specific recommendations. Tires I will likely need to replace by the end of this summer, so I suppose that's good timing. I'll look into the items you recommended some more in the coming month or two before I start buying things.

Brakes were definitely what I had in mind as #1. My current tires are decent, but the brakes simply aren't cutting it even with these tires and my current driving style.

[LeVeL]

Originally Posted by Tatanko

Honestly I'm glad I really pushed the limits of the stock suspension FIRST, before deciding to upgrade. I think it's made me a better driver and will allow me to appreciate the upgrades more.

Learning to drive fast is an interesting process... you're MUCH better off learning on a miata than a corvette, for example. Running stock suspension for a while isn't a bad idea - it will force you to learn to deal with squat and dive, body roll, etc.

Matt93SE is right - tires are more important than suspension because in the end the only contact you have with the ground are those four small patches of rubber.

[Matt93SE]

Originally Posted by LeVeL

Matt93SE is right - tires are more important than suspension because in the end the only contact you have with the ground are those four small patches of rubber.

Yup.. do some reading in all the 'real' car mags, and all their testing shows the biggest difference in lap times- besides the driver- comes from your tires. not from coilovers or braces or brakes, but tires.
BUT.. if your brakes aren't up to the job, you will kill yourself quicker than having junk tires on the car and sliding around the track at 50mph.

junk tires keep you slow. brakes fail only when you're running them the hardest.

[97SEdriver]

Originally Posted by Tatanko

9/10ths was an exaggeration anyway. I pushed the car as hard as I felt comfortable with. I rarely exceeded the grip of the tires, played it safe by staying in my own lane the entire time (granted not everyone I was with did, but I wasn't taking chances), etc.

This is all getting blown way out of proportion and I think I've gotten enough input at this point, so the thread should just be locked. I'd like more, but I think the thread is only going downhill from here.

I think it's still a healthy discussion, no one is getting sandy......yet......

if you can afford it, take your car out to Pocono, or it might be just as easy from State College to blast up to Watkins Glen. Either way, I think NASA in the northeast has been taken over by PDA, but you can run with EMRA or a few other outfits as well.

there is just nothing like a roadcourse.......

trailbraking near triple digits.....

4 wheel drifting at speed......

and of course the lack of worry that some fuknut is going to not look and run stop sign and t-bone you......

[Matt93SE]

Originally Posted by LeVeL

You can tell where your limits lie. I dont think Ive ever really pushed myself to 10/10ths but I know where that mark lies, I can more or less estimate it.

The rookie driver can not and will not know where 9/10 is until it's too late. only once you've been past that mark several times and survived will you know exactly where it is and what it feels like to be there without going past it into an uncontrollable situation. I've broken many suspension parts on my cars trying to find that limit. only true professional racers can do it consistently and predictably.

[Tatanko]

Actually, speaking of the Poconos and Watkins Glen, I may be going to at least one if not both this summer. As it is I've been deemed a good enough "performance" driver by the other club members (guys with TONS of racing experience of every kind) to be a driver for LeMons this August, but I don't feel like I have the experience necessary yet, even though not a ton of actual driving skill is involved (more managing traffic than anything), so I will be trying to get some racing in this summer just to test myself and get some seat time in.