Autocrossing and Road Course RacingEnjoy and discuss the fun through the twisties at your favorite auto-x event. Check out the links to the SCCA website to locate your local club.
Guys, a near accident that happened to me a couple years ago still haunts me to the day. And i was wondering if there was a way i could have controlled the car better should the situation come up again.
Long story short, the road was wet, i was cut-off, had to swerve and the car over steered across 4 lanes on the freeway. I managed to get control before hitting a post but the tires lost grip again and i went sideways the other way.
I was now sliding sideways to my right on the freeway. Steering wheel is turned to the right and i'm modulating throttle at this point to prevent the tail from getting ahead of me (and to avoid all the cars zooming by.)
Eventually, i hit the grassy median and straightened out.
With the rains and cold weather upon us, i want to be better prepared. If the tail did come out, how would you correct (or even avoid) it?
Unless you have a rear sway bar or other suspension mods, it's hard to get a Maxima sideways. It sounds like you did the basics right, steer into the slide and apply throttle. As for controling or correcting an oversteer condition, your limited to counter steering and using the throttle to pull the front end back in line. The incident you had sounds like the story many people tell just before the crash. Ever tried autoX?? it will let you test the limits of your car in a safe area, it could make you feel more comfortable with your car.
What Z32 said. On an understeery FWD chassis like the A32 you can countersteer and hit the go pedal, the tail should come back in line. In general, the more throttle you apply the quicker the rear will recenter itself. What you DON'T want to do, on the other hand, is back off the throttle and try and catch the rear with the wheel. It is doable but you want to shift as much weight to the rear as possible.
Trust me, I have been out ebraking mountain roads in the rain more than a few times. When you want the tail to stay out, you lay off the gas. When you want it to fall back in line get back on the throttle and be prepared to straighten the wheel quickly.
if you are already at full throttle and the back is still sliding out, ease off the throttle (i mean softer than you have ever eased before) and keep the steering wheel pointed in the direction you want to go. then ease onto the brakes and as the back end snaps the other way, center the wheel and slam the gas. that is probably the most fun you will have in a front wheel drive car.
Not much new to add except what to do in theory and "(and to avoid all the cars zooming by.)" are completely different at speed. It's one thing on an open course or empty road vs having traffic and real physical obstacles to deal with. Perhaps hit up a wet autocross event on regular tires somewhere. The few I've done always get me spins and snap oversteer when I don't take it easy. I've yet to countsteer correctly on those for lack of practice.
the local autocross facility is a crap asphalt surface that's breaking up. driving on it is like driving on a wet road already. that would be a very good place to learn how to control the car when it's doing things like that.
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93 SE 5 spd- Only thing still stock is the carpet.
the only time I've "lost the tail" on a public road was in my integra, going 60mph and changing lanes with winter slush between lanes. Tail went out fast and with traffic around I had no chance to bring it back in, so I went all the way around 360 on purpose and came to a stop on the right shoulder after starting in the far left lane.
That was some scary ****, especially with several truckers in the vicinity. Not the suggested way to do it, but in my situation, it was the only way out.
The moral: there is no "right' way to recover from a spin in real-world situations, especially with traffic around. The best thing you can do is autocross and go to empty parking lots in rain/snow conditions and find the limits of your car and induce spins to practice recovering. After you've done it a few times, you instincts will kick in and if it happens on the road, your instincs will (hopefully) know what to do, because when you start spinning out, you're not going to have time to "think" about what to do....
All that said, I've never, ever lost the tail of the maxima, even in snow situations, unless doing so on purpose. There is alot to be said for having a balanced setup (I can break all four wheels loose at the same time on a highway exit ramp in the rain, if I want to), as well as good tires (the Proxes4 are extremely hard to break loose, even when trying, in the wet....
__________________ 2000 Maxima SE (sold but still on the org) - 2009 Subaru WRX - 2008 4Runner SportEdition - 1990 Cherokee Laredo - 1970 Triumph GT6 Mk2
Agree with what was said before. A few things that I wanted to add: While auto-x is a good place to learn the limits of your car (so you can avoid any kind of sliding in the first place), maximas behave slightly different in higher speed situations. It is more likely for the tail to come out when you start sliding going 60, than when you start sliding going 30. The tail will also come out more easily when you are going slightly over the limit, than when you are pushing it way over the limit.
Regarding what to do if the tail is already sliding, there's one very important rule: Look where you want the car to go, not at the thick trees on the side of the road or other vehicles passing by.
Off course this rule alone will not keep you out to trouble, but it really does help, and it does wonders if you combine it with other skills.
Also, when countersteering, don't just steer in the diretion where the tail is sliding, point the wheels in the direction where the car is moving. Otherwise you will overcorrect, which will result in a spin even more violent than before.
That being said, if you don't feel comfortable on the road with your current setup, I would definitely change something to make the car behave more conservatively. At least reduce your rear tire pressure by a few PSI.
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2000 SE 5-speed
BC coilovers | BlehmCo LTB | Progress RSB | ES bushings | OTTO FSTB | Toyo Proxes 4 | GAB2
Hawk HPS | Brembo blanks | Cattman muffler | BlehmCo grounding | AutoVation pedals
Regarding what to do if the tail is already sliding, there's one very important rule: Look where you want the car to go, not at the thick trees on the side of the road or other vehicles passing by.
Good ol' target fixation. Learned this the hard way on a motorcycle
back in 05. when the gods of snow decided to unleash the best snow I've ever seen for skiing in the Northeast, I decided to brave the highway and go up to blue mountain from philly.....even though they had not plowed anything yet.
My wife was probably 7-8 months pregnant at the time, but the snow was good enough that she said she would feel bad if she didn't let me go.....her mother was visiting at the time anyway...for some reason her mother wasn't as understanding.
Anyway, on 476 near Plymouth meeting, there is a very, very slight turn before you get to the 1st tollbooth. I wasn't even starting to turn yet and the azz end just broke loose. That was possibly the slowest, longest, and most unintentional 720 or 1080 or whatever, that anyone could possibly do. I could not do anything with the throttle, any of my inputs garnered no response.
back in 05. when the gods of snow decided to unleash the best snow I've ever seen for skiing in the Northeast, I decided to brave the highway and go up to blue mountain from philly.....even though they had not plowed anything yet.
My wife was probably 7-8 months pregnant at the time, but the snow was good enough that she said she would feel bad if she didn't let me go.....her mother was visiting at the time anyway...for some reason her mother wasn't as understanding.
Anyway, on 476 near Plymouth meeting, there is a very, very slight turn before you get to the 1st tollbooth. I wasn't even starting to turn yet and the azz end just broke loose. That was possibly the slowest, longest, and most unintentional 720 or 1080 or whatever, that anyone could possibly do. I could not do anything with the throttle, any of my inputs garnered no response.
I think I drove in that snow, too! It started on a Saturday night and no one plowed anything until Sunday night, right?
That day was awesome. As soon as I woke up and saw the snow, I got some breakfast and ran out for a drive.
I also got the back end loose and spun around on public roads, but I'm not sure if my experience is applicable here because I did it on purpose...
Regarding what to do if the tail is already sliding, there's one very important rule: Look where you want the car to go, not at the thick trees on the side of the road or other vehicles passing by.
If you go to any performance driving school, this is the first thing they tell you. By looking where you want to go, your body 'automatically' makes adjustments to get you there. If you are looking where you don't want to go, well you're gonna go where you don't want to go.
As a driving instructor for Ridgefield Driving School and former CDC auto-x instructor there are two things that MIGHT have helped. First, look further ahead. Yes I understand the person cut you off, but maybe you could have seen signs of the way the person was driving that could have warned you first. By looking further ahead you can avoid problems like this.
Second, the condition of your tires....tread depth and proper inflation. This is often the most over looked item on a car. Properly maintained tires will offer more traction.
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Drives:
2000 Maxima SE 5spd
1988 Merc Saablay too slow to write about
2003 Evo 12.54 @ 107, 1.68 60t, street tires
06 GSXR 750 10.3@137.4mph
You also have to be ready for when the rear end regains grip - and they usually will unless the surface is really slippery (wet ice?) - the car WILL want to spin in the other direction. Expect it and you'll usually be able to keep up with it. Otherwise, you'll probably spin anyway or at least have a tank-slapper of a thrill ride.
Keep in mind that your front wheels will be steered more or less along the line that the rear wheels were drifting in (if the rear was sliding to the left, you'll be steering as in a left turn to correct a clockwise yaw looking down). When the rear wheels start rolling again, the effect is to rotate the car in the other direction (the yaw direction now being counterclockwise for the above case) and this happens in as little time as it takes the rear tires to transition from sliding to rolling. And you don't have nearly as much feel for rear grip as you do front grip.
So the rear came around tonight, the most I have ever had it do without me yanking the fun handle (no homo). About 2AM, there's a series of high speed corners I enjoy taking at 65-80mph, then power down the straightaway following them. Well, this time I decided to take them after powering down the straightaway preceding them.
Entering the first corner at 80 or so (3rd gear, 5800rpm or so) I realize I have never actually entered this corner hot before and I'm going a bit quick, so I trail off the throttle entirely, the back end progressively but quickly comes around. Honestly I don't really see the back end ever unpredictably coming around in an A32, snap oversteer is just not an attribute of this car no matter what you do to it.
The rear comes around and in doing so scrubs off just about enough speed, so as I lazily correct I start rolling back on the throttle moderately. The back end is in line just in time as I hit the apex of the corner. Maybe I have had more driving experience than others, but really at this point that is the natural thing for me to do. The only time I've met an oversteer condition in a FWD car is as I'm letting off the throttle for a decreasing radius turn or on turn entry, and every time I've done pretty much the same thing and have kept it within my lane.
The most important thing has been said--look through the corner, "where you want to go." But it's also important to keep calm and give smooth input, if you freak out you will more than likely give some erratic steering input, which not only will upset the car but you will be moving beyond your feel--giving smooth input allows you to take in what the car is telling you and base your input off of that. Of course, if you need to correct the car really quickly then smooth input is impossible, but I don't ever see that situation happening in an A32.
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All stock.
Last edited by MorpheusZero; 01-20-2008 at 10:48 AM.
Thanks for all the input, guys. The thing is, this was in a straight line and it was about the entire car losing traction on wet roads and trying to regain from it. But posting your experiences really does help me, for when the situation presents itself again.
When you want the tail to stay out, you lay off the gas. When you want it to fall back in line get back on the throttle and be prepared to straighten the wheel quickly.
- 2009 Subaru WRX - 2008 4Runner SportEdition - 1990 Cherokee Laredo - 1970 Triumph GT6 Mk2
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