How many watts, be4 alternator grenades?
12-20-2003, 07:57 PM
#1
How many watts, be4 alternator grenades?
Just a curiosity question. I dont know how diff the alternators between 3rd/4th/5th gen are (amperage wise) I know the 5th get has a 120a alternator. Im just wondering how many watts (rms) could I push be4 I really start to worry about the alternator. I have apprx 1500w/rms worth of amps going in soon.
I got 2 optima YT's & am planning on grounding the hell out of the car.
I just dont know about the alternator, if only there was a kit to make it push like 140a.
Any thoughts?
12-20-2003, 09:57 PM
#3
Originally Posted by HitManSE
Just a curiosity question. I dont know how diff the alternators between 3rd/4th/5th gen are (amperage wise) I know the 5th get has a 120a alternator. Im just wondering how many watts (rms) could I push be4 I really start to worry about the alternator. I have apprx 1500w/rms worth of amps going in soon.
I got 2 optima YT's & am planning on grounding the hell out of the car.
I just dont know about the alternator, if only there was a kit to make it push like 140a.
Any thoughts?
12-21-2003, 12:34 AM
#4
Originally Posted by slickrick
how many amps does it take to start the car and have it do normal functions such as headlights, etc?
Once the motor is running, its all alternator from there on.
As for the headlights, that I doubt ill have to worry about. I used to have 80watt bulbs in the headlights & fogs that pulled a total of 320 watts
However that was a while ago...now I got 2K2 HIDs & HID's for the fogs as well.
Both combined pull a total of 112w, besides...have you ever heard of HIDs dimming
I was just worried because the last big system truck ive sat it, pulled over 1600w/rms and every time the bass hit you could literally see the voltage guage drop from 14v to 9v. That would really be taxing the alternator after a while.
12-21-2003, 08:02 AM
#6
Originally Posted by HitManSE
Well, off the top of my head I cant recall. Maybe monday ill hook up the battery tester at work and see how many amps the starter pulls. That doesnt matter though, thats just to start the car & uses just the batteried juice.
Once the motor is running, its all alternator from there on.
As for the headlights, that I doubt ill have to worry about. I used to have 80watt bulbs in the headlights & fogs that pulled a total of 320 watts
However that was a while ago...now I got 2K2 HIDs & HID's for the fogs as well.
Both combined pull a total of 112w, besides...have you ever heard of HIDs dimming
I was just worried because the last big system truck ive sat it, pulled over 1600w/rms and every time the bass hit you could literally see the voltage guage drop from 14v to 9v. That would really be taxing the alternator after a while.
Once the motor is running, its all alternator from there on.
As for the headlights, that I doubt ill have to worry about. I used to have 80watt bulbs in the headlights & fogs that pulled a total of 320 watts
However that was a while ago...now I got 2K2 HIDs & HID's for the fogs as well.
Both combined pull a total of 112w, besides...have you ever heard of HIDs dimming
I was just worried because the last big system truck ive sat it, pulled over 1600w/rms and every time the bass hit you could literally see the voltage guage drop from 14v to 9v. That would really be taxing the alternator after a while.
12-21-2003, 02:30 PM
#7
Originally Posted by slickrick
yeah all i care about is my headlight dimming. but ill only be running 600 watts rms.
Originally Posted by Fosgate Fan
just get a cap, that should help out a bit.
12-21-2003, 03:01 PM
#8
Originally Posted by HitManSE
600watts is definetly not enough to make anything dim. Besides, ive never seen HID's dim. Your headlights only need 35watts to operate which is quite a bit less then halogen so I doubt you'll see any dimming.
Ive "had" two 1.0 farad caps sitting at home, but was advised that they were not really needed. Instead get another yellow top...so I did. The second YT cost was less then two 1.0 farad caps to begin with. I was just told id get more bang for the buck this way
Ive "had" two 1.0 farad caps sitting at home, but was advised that they were not really needed. Instead get another yellow top...so I did. The second YT cost was less then two 1.0 farad caps to begin with. I was just told id get more bang for the buck this way
12-21-2003, 07:18 PM
#11
Originally Posted by Fosgate Fan
dude, if you only have 200 rms and your lights are dimming...i'd check the alternator to see if it's putting out enough power for your car's electrical system. 
well it is a class a amp and it only occurs once in awhile, usually when my car is playing when the engine is not on. i know that drains the battery, but 200 watts? it like barely flinches the lights, it doesnt fully dim but still... how do i check the alternator?
12-21-2003, 10:36 PM
#14
my headlights looked like strobe lights with a 1200 watt amp with only 1 battery and no cap when I had the heater/AC on 
I've got an auxillary battery now, waiting on my new amp to arrive to see if it helps...if it doesn't, I'm gonna go nuts with caps and get probably three 1F caps off of e-bay to be sure I've got enough
three 1F caps will deliver their current faster than one 3F cap, in case any of you were wondering..
I've got an auxillary battery now, waiting on my new amp to arrive to see if it helps...if it doesn't, I'm gonna go nuts with caps and get probably three 1F caps off of e-bay to be sure I've got enough
three 1F caps will deliver their current faster than one 3F cap, in case any of you were wondering..
12-22-2003, 07:20 AM
#15
1) HID's can't dim. or shouldn't...they run off their own power source (the ballast) so to dim them, you really gotta do something. i don't really know the technology behind it, nor can i explain it that well, but i believe it's not that possible to dim the bulb due to the way it's designed (gas bulb).
2) based on previous findings, our alternator peaks at 105A, and that's at around 5500RPM, if driving at an avg. 2500-3000rpm, we're really only generating about 80A. don't know where 120 came from, so i think 105 is more of a true answer, and even that can't be used since it's only at high rpm's. if you're always at that rpm, i'd be more worried about your mpg
correct me if i'm wrong, i had looked this up awhile ago, and these were the values i read.
2) based on previous findings, our alternator peaks at 105A, and that's at around 5500RPM, if driving at an avg. 2500-3000rpm, we're really only generating about 80A. don't know where 120 came from, so i think 105 is more of a true answer, and even that can't be used since it's only at high rpm's. if you're always at that rpm, i'd be more worried about your mpg
correct me if i'm wrong, i had looked this up awhile ago, and these were the values i read.
12-22-2003, 09:34 AM
#16
Guest
Posts: n/a
Use batteries for listening with the engine off or for SPL burps. Use caps for listening with the engine on and for music. That's the short version.
I think 4th gen cam with two versions of alternator. One for the cold weather package that I think was also used on the GLE, 115 amps. The other one was a bit smaller at 105 amps. But I think the 115 was on more than just cold weather and GLE in '99 since my '99 SEL had a 115 amp alt stock.
I'm not sure what the 5th gen has but I think I have seen posted that it is the 115 amp alt.
If you are listening to music instead of tone bursts and sine waves you will be fine with up to about 2000 watts with the stock alt in 4th and 5th gen cars. Of course your second battery will skew that amount of power you can use. The second battery will draw between 2 and 12 amps on average. A lot more when it has been drained. There are a lot of other problems that must be overcome when you add a second battery.
Big alt works only when the engine is revving and will consume about twice the engine horsepower. It wil also eat through belts and idler pulleys at an accelerated rate. At idle the big alts have considerably less current and voltage than stock. Expect a 1.5 - 3.0 mpg drop every tank.
I think 4th gen cam with two versions of alternator. One for the cold weather package that I think was also used on the GLE, 115 amps. The other one was a bit smaller at 105 amps. But I think the 115 was on more than just cold weather and GLE in '99 since my '99 SEL had a 115 amp alt stock.
I'm not sure what the 5th gen has but I think I have seen posted that it is the 115 amp alt.
If you are listening to music instead of tone bursts and sine waves you will be fine with up to about 2000 watts with the stock alt in 4th and 5th gen cars. Of course your second battery will skew that amount of power you can use. The second battery will draw between 2 and 12 amps on average. A lot more when it has been drained. There are a lot of other problems that must be overcome when you add a second battery.
Big alt works only when the engine is revving and will consume about twice the engine horsepower. It wil also eat through belts and idler pulleys at an accelerated rate. At idle the big alts have considerably less current and voltage than stock. Expect a 1.5 - 3.0 mpg drop every tank.
12-22-2003, 06:51 PM
#17
ok, dimming is almost eliminated except for 2 or 3 songs (this is on a 3rd gen with a 90 amp alt)..after adding the second battery, the headlights dim only occasionally on those 2 or 3 songs, although the h/u lights still dim quite a bit, but no where near as bad as they were..this is also with the heater fan on high, the windshield wipers on, headlights and aftermarket fog lights on, and the amp turned most of the way up..the RPMs are staying higher at idle and while driving at a steady speed than they did before..before, the RPMs dropped 200-300 on heavy bass parts, now there is no effect..900-1000 rpms warm idle, 700-900 hot (15 min drive at 75 mph) idle, and 1200-1400 rpms cold idle, and 1800-2100 rpms normal city driving (35 mph) just like it does when the stereo is off..
12-22-2003, 10:11 PM
#18
Originally Posted by PoLo
1) HID's can't dim. or shouldn't...they run off their own power source (the ballast) so to dim them, you really gotta do something. i don't really know the technology behind it, nor can i explain it that well, but i believe it's not that possible to dim the bulb due to the way it's designed (gas bulb).
2) based on previous findings, our alternator peaks at 105A, and that's at around 5500RPM, if driving at an avg. 2500-3000rpm, we're really only generating about 80A. don't know where 120 came from, so i think 105 is more of a true answer, and even that can't be used since it's only at high rpm's. if you're always at that rpm, i'd be more worried about your mpg.
correct me if i'm wrong, i had looked this up awhile ago, and these were the values i read.
2) based on previous findings, our alternator peaks at 105A, and that's at around 5500RPM, if driving at an avg. 2500-3000rpm, we're really only generating about 80A. don't know where 120 came from, so i think 105 is more of a true answer, and even that can't be used since it's only at high rpm's. if you're always at that rpm, i'd be more worried about your mpg.
correct me if i'm wrong, i had looked this up awhile ago, and these were the values i read.
2) I dont know how diff the 01 alternator is v.s. the 3.5's but the one on the 3.0 is atleast 110a (not like its a big diff) I see sooo many #'s at work every day so I might not have recalled the exact # correctly but as jmax said, its in that range.
As for revving it that high to get that much amperage, its not really necessary. You alternator is capable of producing its maximum charge at lower rpms, usually 1500-2500. It takes energy to make energy so the alternator doesnt really have to spin faster to create energy, just increase resistance. If the motor has enough power to turn the pulley at that resistance level, then max amperage will be charged regardless of rpms, BUT it will be easier for the motor to turn the alternator at higher rpms due to more power being present.
Its been a while since I really looked into it, but im pretty sure about that.
I dont see why, but if for some reason im wrong, some1 please point out the error
I dont design & build alternator so Im not an expert on them.
Originally Posted by jmax
Use batteries for listening with the engine off or for SPL burps. Use caps for listening with the engine on and for music. That's the short version.
I think 4th gen cam with two versions of alternator. One for the cold weather package that I think was also used on the GLE, 115 amps. The other one was a bit smaller at 105 amps. But I think the 115 was on more than just cold weather and GLE in '99 since my '99 SEL had a 115 amp alt stock.
I'm not sure what the 5th gen has but I think I have seen posted that it is the 115 amp alt.
If you are listening to music instead of tone bursts and sine waves you will be fine with up to about 2000 watts with the stock alt in 4th and 5th gen cars. Of course your second battery will skew that amount of power you can use. The second battery will draw between 2 and 12 amps on average. A lot more when it has been drained. There are a lot of other problems that must be overcome when you add a second battery.
Big alt works only when the engine is revving and will consume about twice the engine horsepower. It wil also eat through belts and idler pulleys at an accelerated rate. At idle the big alts have considerably less current and voltage than stock. Expect a 1.5 - 3.0 mpg drop every tank..
I think 4th gen cam with two versions of alternator. One for the cold weather package that I think was also used on the GLE, 115 amps. The other one was a bit smaller at 105 amps. But I think the 115 was on more than just cold weather and GLE in '99 since my '99 SEL had a 115 amp alt stock.
I'm not sure what the 5th gen has but I think I have seen posted that it is the 115 amp alt.
If you are listening to music instead of tone bursts and sine waves you will be fine with up to about 2000 watts with the stock alt in 4th and 5th gen cars. Of course your second battery will skew that amount of power you can use. The second battery will draw between 2 and 12 amps on average. A lot more when it has been drained. There are a lot of other problems that must be overcome when you add a second battery.
Big alt works only when the engine is revving and will consume about twice the engine horsepower. It wil also eat through belts and idler pulleys at an accelerated rate. At idle the big alts have considerably less current and voltage than stock. Expect a 1.5 - 3.0 mpg drop every tank..
As for the Dual batteries setup...all I have to say about it now is
So what your saying is im better off with what I though would be best from the start! One YT and two 1.0 rarad caps
NOW im starting to get ****ed off, I get two caps only to return them & get a 2nd YT, if im really better off with two 1.0 farad caps then im gonna go pick them up next week. This also saves me having to use a crapload of 1/0 guage.
Originally I was going to use dual 4 guage's as Marco suggested, but since im not the one thats going to be installing it. I said hell with it, 1/0 guage it is.
He was telling me im going to need upward to 70ft of 1/0 guage. That **** isnt cheap either. Jmax, honestly I trust what you say about the caps & all more then I do my installer since he is an SPL freak. You guys know my car better then most would so bottom line, which road would be the best to take?
Two YT's
One YT & two 1.0 farad caps
OR...(fill in the black _______ ) suggestions?
12-23-2003, 06:02 AM
#20
Guest
Posts: n/a
Remember for the alt that is alternator RPM's, not engine RPM's. Alt rotates about 3 times every time the engine rotates one time. Max power for alt is with engine at about 60 - 75 mph, 2500 - 3000 rpm.
Keep the 1/0 cable. Less resistance than smaller cable. Less resistance yields less voltage drop betwen battery and amps. Keep power cable as short as possible. I don't know what you would do with 70 feet of cable. Maybe tie it up like a noose and use it on the friend who told you to buy two batteries and 70 feet of cable.
Keep the 1/0 cable. Less resistance than smaller cable. Less resistance yields less voltage drop betwen battery and amps. Keep power cable as short as possible. I don't know what you would do with 70 feet of cable. Maybe tie it up like a noose and use it on the friend who told you to buy two batteries and 70 feet of cable.
12-23-2003, 06:21 AM
#21
Originally Posted by jmax
Remember for the alt that is alternator RPM's, not engine RPM's. Alt rotates about 3 times every time the engine rotates one time. Max power for alt is with engine at about 60 - 75 mph, 2500 - 3000 rpm.
so let me ask you this, for someone who wants to add more current into their system, and still keeping the same overall setup (1 battery, non-high powered alternator) what can they do. can we get a better "for-audio" alternator but with the same current? do we get our alternator rewound to handle a little more current?
what are our options.
12-23-2003, 11:42 AM
#22
Guest
Posts: n/a
You can't get anything for nothing. Alternators are a noisy source of current. They produce AC power that is converted to DC. As a result you have noise. The bigger the alt, the louder the noise. That is an unescapable fact.
For what do you need more current? Music, no. SPL burps maybe. Other accesories, possibly. I say no to music because an in car sub in a non efficient sealed enclosure can hit 100 dB with 1 watt of amplifier power. With that as a reference the same system can go louder than the thresshold of pain with less than 500 watts. Switch to a ported enclosure and you can do the same with 1/8 to 1/4 of the power.
You can easilly power 2000 watts RMS music with the stock alternator and battery. If you want significantly more be prepared for a thoughtful cost benefit analysis. You might want to go dust off your high school physics book.
For what do you need more current? Music, no. SPL burps maybe. Other accesories, possibly. I say no to music because an in car sub in a non efficient sealed enclosure can hit 100 dB with 1 watt of amplifier power. With that as a reference the same system can go louder than the thresshold of pain with less than 500 watts. Switch to a ported enclosure and you can do the same with 1/8 to 1/4 of the power.
You can easilly power 2000 watts RMS music with the stock alternator and battery. If you want significantly more be prepared for a thoughtful cost benefit analysis. You might want to go dust off your high school physics book.
12-23-2003, 03:13 PM
#23
Ok point proven. Screw getting 70 ft then So bottom line. What do I NEED I have two YTs sitting at home now. I guess I shall return one of them, BUT how many 1.0 farad caps should I get. 1, 2, none?
So bottom line. What do I NEED I have two YTs sitting at home now. I guess I shall return one of them, BUT how many 1.0 farad caps should I get. 1, 2, none?
12-23-2003, 03:35 PM
#24
Guest
Posts: n/a
What amp are you useing for the subs and what will be the nominal resistance of the subs? Start with 1 farad and see if it is enough. It's the old fashioned way but it is the most accurate way to test.
Make sure everything is properly wired before you get any caps.
Make sure everything is properly wired before you get any caps.
12-23-2003, 09:44 PM
#25
Originally Posted by jmax
What amp are you useing for the subs and what will be the nominal resistance of the subs? Start with 1 farad and see if it is enough. It's the old fashioned way but it is the most accurate way to test.
Make sure everything is properly wired before you get any caps.
Make sure everything is properly wired before you get any caps.
) its rated at 1200 rms at 1 ohm at 14.4 volts. Since the car wont hold that high a voltage with the system running, it will put out about 1100/rms at 1ohm say with 13.2v. Regardless even if voltage drops to 12.0 its going to say atleasts at 1K/rms. I also have a JL 300.4 for the components. So its about 1400w/rms (give or take a few)Off the top of my head I can not recall the subs resistance, but its a Brahma gen2 15". You seem to be somewhat familiar with the sub
Btw-Sooo how many ft of 1/0 am I going to need? Should I just pick up like 20-25ft? Im thinking of getting just OFC 1/0 Arc welder wire. OFC is OFC right, nothing fancy but it does the job.
12-23-2003, 10:05 PM
#26
Guest
Posts: n/a
Welding cable is fine but you need to use one that is high quality and flexible. Also check the insulation. Make sure it is rated to at least 105 degrees celcius. And if using the welding cable it is enough cheaper that you can get 2/0 instead of 1/0. 20 - 25 feet should be enough for power and ground. As well as enough to replace the factory grounds at the battery and chassis to engine. Pick up some good copper or aluminum connections while you are at the welding shop. It is likely cheaper and more conductive than the stuff at the car audio stores. Sorry I havn't gotten that diagrahm to you yet. I likely need some measurements of your trunk anyway as the 5th gen is slightly different than the 4th gen. Max height of enclosure that can slide in through the back seat of the 4th gen is 15.5 inches. What is the max width between the strut towers in the 5th gen?
12-23-2003, 10:57 PM
#27
The guys on CAF pointed out this site... http://www.weldingsupply.com/cgi-bin...F:OR:terms::PA
2/0
Its not too expensive, hell you could even choose the color good enough from my point of veiw.
How much thicker is 2/0 compared to 1/0 anyway?
As far as the lenght, I guess ill pick up 25ft just to be on the safe side. The battery is going back I guess next monday & ill just pick up a cap...again. The underhood wires Im thinking of upgrading most to atleast 4guage, considering they are mostle short runs I doubt ill have any issues with it.
The alternator power wire is something that Im still wondering about, ive asked PoLo about that be4 and he's upgraded his to I belive it was 4guage. After speaking about it to my father he said even though its at 8guage, it should more then be capable of carrying the maximimum charge the alternator is capable of putting out, therefor no need to upgrade it. Im thinking I should atleast add a 4guage along with it just to decrease resistance.
As for the diagrahm, no worries. By all means man, take your time. I have until the 10th or 17th be4 I have to really start worrying about it. Im heading down to LA tomorrow & wont be back til the 28th.
I just measured and it looks like the width between the rear strut towers are apprx 40". It looks like I also have about 16.5" of height to give up be4 it touches anything. Thats actually sparing 1/2" (you never know)
2/0
Its not too expensive, hell you could even choose the color good enough from my point of veiw.How much thicker is 2/0 compared to 1/0 anyway?
As far as the lenght, I guess ill pick up 25ft just to be on the safe side. The battery is going back I guess next monday & ill just pick up a cap...again. The underhood wires Im thinking of upgrading most to atleast 4guage, considering they are mostle short runs I doubt ill have any issues with it.
The alternator power wire is something that Im still wondering about, ive asked PoLo about that be4 and he's upgraded his to I belive it was 4guage. After speaking about it to my father he said even though its at 8guage, it should more then be capable of carrying the maximimum charge the alternator is capable of putting out, therefor no need to upgrade it. Im thinking I should atleast add a 4guage along with it just to decrease resistance.
As for the diagrahm, no worries. By all means man, take your time. I have until the 10th or 17th be4 I have to really start worrying about it. Im heading down to LA tomorrow & wont be back til the 28th.
I just measured and it looks like the width between the rear strut towers are apprx 40". It looks like I also have about 16.5" of height to give up be4 it touches anything. Thats actually sparing 1/2" (you never know)
12-24-2003, 07:18 AM
#28
Guest
Posts: n/a
The difference between 1/0 and 2/0 is not huge. Most of the 1/0 car audio cables are actually 2/0 cable. That's the one positive side of car audio cables. The other benefit of car audio cables is that most have insulation that has better temperature ratings and better chemical resistance. That's important when you consider the heat under the hood and all the various chemicals such as brake fluid, gas, oil, etc. There are welding cables that meet or exceed the specs for use in a vehicle. They are just hard to find. I tracked down some cable for a month or two a while back and when I finally got ahold of the Virginia distributor they would only sell it to me in a whole roll length. Something like 250 or 1000 feet. I would have needed a forklift to move it around. Then I went back to my local welding shop to ask more questions and bought a small piece of cable. The label on the cable indicates -50 to 105 degrees C. They had higher quality cable than they realized at the register. But only one color, black. Oh well. I just have to use a properly colored heat shrink on the ends of the cables.
Sounds like you have a lot more room to work with in your trunk than in the 4th gen. I need to you measure something else when you get a chance. Measure how wide and tall of a box can slide in through the rear seat to the trunk. In the 4th gen when I remove the metal panel behind the rear seat I can get a box about 21 inches wide and 15.5 inches tall to slide in from the rear seat to the trunk. I think it's a little larger than can fit through the trunk opening.
Sounds like you have a lot more room to work with in your trunk than in the 4th gen. I need to you measure something else when you get a chance. Measure how wide and tall of a box can slide in through the rear seat to the trunk. In the 4th gen when I remove the metal panel behind the rear seat I can get a box about 21 inches wide and 15.5 inches tall to slide in from the rear seat to the trunk. I think it's a little larger than can fit through the trunk opening.
12-24-2003, 07:41 AM
#29
Guest
Posts: n/a
12-31-2003, 07:13 PM
#30
Dont have room for **** from the inside to the trunk. The opening is less then 12" tall & 21" wide...if that 
Ill figure something out though. The ABC box does seem to have a stronger low 20hz response and is also stronger from 65-80hz but it seems the regular ported box smokes it from 25-65hz.
Honestly J, I think im going to try the reguler ported box for a little while & see how that goes.
I could always switch down the road right
I still have 2 weeks, so
Ill figure something out though. The ABC box does seem to have a stronger low 20hz response and is also stronger from 65-80hz but it seems the regular ported box smokes it from 25-65hz. Honestly J, I think im going to try the reguler ported box for a little while & see how that goes.
I could always switch down the road right
I still have 2 weeks, so
01-01-2004, 06:55 PM
#31
Guest
Posts: n/a
This sub needs no help down low. And it rolls off around 60-70 hz on the high end which is perfect for a sub. In car you will have 12-20 dB more at 20 hz than the programs indicate as the programs give anechoic response. Expect to use 50 - 500 lbs of dampening material to tame rattles once this sub breaks in. And give it a good month to break in before you smoke it. You could break it in before you get the enclosure by running it free-air with a test tone or pink noise.
01-05-2004, 10:55 PM
#32
Originally Posted by jmax
This sub needs no help down low. And it rolls off around 60-70 hz on the high end which is perfect for a sub. In car you will have 12-20 dB more at 20 hz than the programs indicate as the programs give anechoic response. Expect to use 50 - 500 lbs of dampening material to tame rattles once this sub breaks in. And give it a good month to break in before you smoke it. You could break it in before you get the enclosure by running it free-air with a test tone or pink noise.
I know about the anechoic spl reading and that the bass will boost inside the car a certain # of db ever octave lower the frequency playes.
Please do not think im throwing your idea completly out the window, I'll never burn the bridges so to speak.
Actually...im considering it again
Ive been researching its positives and negative & it seems to me the ONLY negative if the DCTT enclosure is that its more difficult to build...right? Im still getting more info on it & I didnt know about the box as well as I thought I did. When I was modeling the sub in that box, I was modeling it as a 6th order bandpass. I didnt really get the whole tri-tuned thing (still working on that
)The one BIG thing about your post that has me concerned is the extensive rattling im going to have. Ive been warned by many on the forums, to my installer that with a ported rear-fire im going to have a SEVERE rattling problem.
Does the DCTT enclosure actually produce LESS rattling for some reason? If so I have nothing holding me back & its a go for the DCTT enclosure for sure. I told him the 10th or the 17th, so if need be I can delay the install another week. So pretty much im now waiting on what you got to say man. Once again, thanks.
01-06-2004, 08:08 AM
#33
Guest
Posts: n/a
I can not remember what DCTT abreviates. But the enclosure I have designed is a simply ported box. It's just that the direct sound from the coned is reflected off of a wall, the enclosures top. There is not a second chamber to create another tuning frequncy. It should roll off at the typical 24 dB per octave.
I talked with my friend that has the B15 in a sealed box a couple days ago. He said that the box is 2.75 cubic feet. Based on how his sounds I would shoot for about that same size enclosure sealed or ported. A little bit smaller will work with careful placement of absorbent foam, fiberglass, myraflex, etc.
It's really tough to go that large in the 4th gen max and still get a port in the enclosure. Baltic Birch is the best bet for the enclosure material unless you are very good with fiberglass. The Baltic Birch will allow you to use 3/4 inch thick material saving several precious cubic inches of trunk space. It will also make is so that you only need two people to lift the box instead of three. Although I guess the Brahma is a little lighter than the Tumult.
Anytime you create large amounts of low frequency SPL you will have rattles. There will be large pressure changes in the vehicle. Ramm Mat 60 or whatever it's called is a good choice for the trunk. But you probably want some jute or other carpet padding to stick behind vinyl panels. Some solid rubber or other dense non absorbant material behind the rear license plate and in the frame is also a good idea.
I talked with my friend that has the B15 in a sealed box a couple days ago. He said that the box is 2.75 cubic feet. Based on how his sounds I would shoot for about that same size enclosure sealed or ported. A little bit smaller will work with careful placement of absorbent foam, fiberglass, myraflex, etc.
It's really tough to go that large in the 4th gen max and still get a port in the enclosure. Baltic Birch is the best bet for the enclosure material unless you are very good with fiberglass. The Baltic Birch will allow you to use 3/4 inch thick material saving several precious cubic inches of trunk space. It will also make is so that you only need two people to lift the box instead of three. Although I guess the Brahma is a little lighter than the Tumult.
Anytime you create large amounts of low frequency SPL you will have rattles. There will be large pressure changes in the vehicle. Ramm Mat 60 or whatever it's called is a good choice for the trunk. But you probably want some jute or other carpet padding to stick behind vinyl panels. Some solid rubber or other dense non absorbant material behind the rear license plate and in the frame is also a good idea.
01-06-2004, 05:56 PM
#34
Originally Posted by jmax
I can not remember what DCTT abreviates. But the enclosure I have designed is a simply ported box. It's just that the direct sound from the coned is reflected off of a wall, the enclosures top. There is not a second chamber to create another tuning frequncy. It should roll off at the typical 24 dB per octave.
I talked with my friend that has the B15 in a sealed box a couple days ago. He said that the box is 2.75 cubic feet. Based on how his sounds I would shoot for about that same size enclosure sealed or ported. A little bit smaller will work with careful placement of absorbent foam, fiberglass, myraflex, etc.
It's really tough to go that large in the 4th gen max and still get a port in the enclosure. Baltic Birch is the best bet for the enclosure material unless you are very good with fiberglass. The Baltic Birch will allow you to use 3/4 inch thick material saving several precious cubic inches of trunk space. It will also make is so that you only need two people to lift the box instead of three. Although I guess the Brahma is a little lighter than the Tumult.
Anytime you create large amounts of low frequency SPL you will have rattles. There will be large pressure changes in the vehicle. Ramm Mat 60 or whatever it's called is a good choice for the trunk. But you probably want some jute or other carpet padding to stick behind vinyl panels. Some solid rubber or other dense non absorbant material behind the rear license plate and in the frame is also a good idea.
I talked with my friend that has the B15 in a sealed box a couple days ago. He said that the box is 2.75 cubic feet. Based on how his sounds I would shoot for about that same size enclosure sealed or ported. A little bit smaller will work with careful placement of absorbent foam, fiberglass, myraflex, etc.
It's really tough to go that large in the 4th gen max and still get a port in the enclosure. Baltic Birch is the best bet for the enclosure material unless you are very good with fiberglass. The Baltic Birch will allow you to use 3/4 inch thick material saving several precious cubic inches of trunk space. It will also make is so that you only need two people to lift the box instead of three. Although I guess the Brahma is a little lighter than the Tumult.
Anytime you create large amounts of low frequency SPL you will have rattles. There will be large pressure changes in the vehicle. Ramm Mat 60 or whatever it's called is a good choice for the trunk. But you probably want some jute or other carpet padding to stick behind vinyl panels. Some solid rubber or other dense non absorbant material behind the rear license plate and in the frame is also a good idea.
Check these threads out...
http://caraudioforum.com/showthread....dctt+enclosure
and... on the one below, I was mainly focusing on what BetterAudio & GeoLemon were posting, especially half way down the 3rd page of that thread.
http://caraudioforum.com/showthread....dctt+enclosure
As far as the box goes, how much more expensice is Baltic Birch compared to normal MDF? The 15" weighs about 41lbs so its not exactly what Id consider light, but then again I dont know how much the tumult weighs so
I was going to use 1" MDF, so you think 0.75" of Baltic Birch will be enough (I havnt done much research so I dont know how much thougher it actually is )As far as the rattles go, I have about 50ft of SS STFU-80 for mostly the trunk and another 50ft of SS v2 damplifer for the door. I think im underdoing it but we'll see soon enough. License plate will be done as well as the rear deck, which I think will be the largest problem.
The guy thats going to build the box told me he's thinking of going upward to 4cu.ft AFTER sub & port placment. This was actually a shock to me, I was told that this would be enough to scare the hell out of any human being but once again
01-06-2004, 08:35 PM
#35
Guest
Posts: n/a
As the one guy indicated the ABC box has been around for at least a decade, or two. They are not known as SQ boxes by anyone who is a critical listener. They are essentially a poor mans bandpass. Bandpass sounds accurate to the untrained listener because only the frequencies that can pass through the ports will be heard. The notes above and below those frequncies are diminished to a great extent. Unfortunately you can't tell when the sub is crying for mercy. A lot of subs die this way. Transient response is also very poor with bandpass enclosures. If you put 2/3 as much time and half as much wood into a sealed enclosure it should sound 1000% better. And a good ported box should sound a 200% better. I don't think you can get the port dimensions for a B15 to fit in an ABC box that is only 4 cubic feet total.
But as indicated in the posts on the other forum bandpass can do crazy amounts of SPL. The only time this is truly beneficial is when you are competing in a class that does not allow as many woofers as you can fit or as much power as you can afford.
Instant permanent hearing loss can happen with a brahma sealed. Ported can go 0 - 12 dB higher. Bandpass is just crazy if you want to be able to hear next month. If you want crazy loud go witha bandpass box. But expect to need a lot of space and long ports for that big brahma to keep port noise down.
Tumult is 48 lbs. Baltic Birch, BB, I guestimate to weigh 2/3 as much as MDF. It is more than twice as expensive. One sheet, 5' X 5' is about $40 - $42 locally and is plenty to do one box. Although you would have to cut your panels carefully to build the ABC box. 3/4 inch baltic is thick enough but most double up on the baffle. The box I am building now has the Tumult recessed in 3/4 MDF and a 3/4 inch BB under the MDF. I have seen it posted that BB is more than 2 times as stiff as MDF. I don't have a way to measure that but I believe it to be true based on simple bend tests with different woods. 3/4 inch BB should have 13 - 14 ply's. Most versions are impermeable. It is used by boat builders. It is not necessary to seal the surface of BB in the same way that it is necessary to seal MDF. It is more difficult to cut than MDF but the dust is less dangerous to inhale. I cough 2-3 days or more after cutting MDF, even with a cheap dust shield. You still need to brace the box regardless of building material.
"The guy thats going to build the box told me he's thinking of going upward to 4cu.ft AFTER sub & port placment. This was actually a shock to me, I was told that this would be enough to scare the hell out of any human being but once again "
- I think you meant to write any normal human being. Most people who start putting big subs in their cars as teenagers are not really normal.
But as indicated in the posts on the other forum bandpass can do crazy amounts of SPL. The only time this is truly beneficial is when you are competing in a class that does not allow as many woofers as you can fit or as much power as you can afford.
Instant permanent hearing loss can happen with a brahma sealed. Ported can go 0 - 12 dB higher. Bandpass is just crazy if you want to be able to hear next month. If you want crazy loud go witha bandpass box. But expect to need a lot of space and long ports for that big brahma to keep port noise down.
Tumult is 48 lbs. Baltic Birch, BB, I guestimate to weigh 2/3 as much as MDF. It is more than twice as expensive. One sheet, 5' X 5' is about $40 - $42 locally and is plenty to do one box. Although you would have to cut your panels carefully to build the ABC box. 3/4 inch baltic is thick enough but most double up on the baffle. The box I am building now has the Tumult recessed in 3/4 MDF and a 3/4 inch BB under the MDF. I have seen it posted that BB is more than 2 times as stiff as MDF. I don't have a way to measure that but I believe it to be true based on simple bend tests with different woods. 3/4 inch BB should have 13 - 14 ply's. Most versions are impermeable. It is used by boat builders. It is not necessary to seal the surface of BB in the same way that it is necessary to seal MDF. It is more difficult to cut than MDF but the dust is less dangerous to inhale. I cough 2-3 days or more after cutting MDF, even with a cheap dust shield. You still need to brace the box regardless of building material.
"The guy thats going to build the box told me he's thinking of going upward to 4cu.ft AFTER sub & port placment. This was actually a shock to me, I was told that this would be enough to scare the hell out of any human being but once again "
- I think you meant to write any normal human being. Most people who start putting big subs in their cars as teenagers are not really normal.
01-07-2004, 12:06 AM
#36
Bare with me man, ill have this figured out soon enough.
Thanks for the advice thus far J.
Ill see if he can get his hands on some Baltic Birch locally in that case.
As far as the DCTT/ABC box goes...forget it. I think ive changed my mind one too many times now. Bandpass is DEFINETLY never going to be an option again.
As far as sealed goes, I know your friends got it in a 2.75 cu.ft box but there is two differences that im looking at.
1. hes pushing 1500/rms
2. Its an SUV
I dont doubt you or him when you say it sounds insane, especially in a Durango.
Say I go sealed, im only pushing 1200 rms (only?
) Its in a sedan, but I CAN put the rear seats down which I will do most of the time when I got the sub blasting away. Do you think I should try upward to 3cu.ft (maybe a bit more?) for this car?
The response, even sealed should be pretty much flat when comparing it to a ported, but consider this. This is my first REAL system. I havnt had bumps for almost 4yrs now, do you think I should try to set this up sealed first and see how that goes? OR just do this thing ported right off the bat and get it over with?
I dont want to mess with box design after box design anymore & just want to get this overwith.
If you think ported is still the best bet to go with, im just wondering then (not doubting) what exactly are the advantages of going with a box the type you were refering to? Or is it going to act just like a ported box with the onle difference being the sub is facing up & the waves bounce off a surface?
Thanks for the advice thus far J.
Ill see if he can get his hands on some Baltic Birch locally in that case.
As far as the DCTT/ABC box goes...forget it. I think ive changed my mind one too many times now. Bandpass is DEFINETLY never going to be an option again.
As far as sealed goes, I know your friends got it in a 2.75 cu.ft box but there is two differences that im looking at.
1. hes pushing 1500/rms
2. Its an SUV
I dont doubt you or him when you say it sounds insane, especially in a Durango.
Say I go sealed, im only pushing 1200 rms (only?
) Its in a sedan, but I CAN put the rear seats down which I will do most of the time when I got the sub blasting away. Do you think I should try upward to 3cu.ft (maybe a bit more?) for this car?The response, even sealed should be pretty much flat when comparing it to a ported, but consider this. This is my first REAL system. I havnt had bumps for almost 4yrs now, do you think I should try to set this up sealed first and see how that goes? OR just do this thing ported right off the bat and get it over with?
I dont want to mess with box design after box design anymore & just want to get this overwith.
If you think ported is still the best bet to go with, im just wondering then (not doubting) what exactly are the advantages of going with a box the type you were refering to? Or is it going to act just like a ported box with the onle difference being the sub is facing up & the waves bounce off a surface?
01-07-2004, 09:18 AM
#37
Guest
Posts: n/a
The biggest advantage of my box design is that you don't need a grill for the sub. The secondary advantage is that the first reflection is pretty much in phase for all of the bass frequencies. At 22 inches wide I can fit a Tumult and have flat response to 20 Hz anechoic. In the car it will likely have about 12 - 20 dB boost at 20 Hz. The Brahma needs a little bit larger box, 28 - 32 inches wide for sealed. 28 - 35 inches wide for ported. But the Brahma is more efficient than the Tumult.
If you want the insane bass right off the bat go with the ported box and tune to 27-28 Hz. That way with 1200 watts it will be real hard to damage the sub. By the time you have the sub broken in I think you will be more than pleased with the SQ and SPL of just one little 15 inch sub and one little class D amp.
If you want the insane bass right off the bat go with the ported box and tune to 27-28 Hz. That way with 1200 watts it will be real hard to damage the sub. By the time you have the sub broken in I think you will be more than pleased with the SQ and SPL of just one little 15 inch sub and one little class D amp.
01-07-2004, 06:04 PM
#38
Im tired of changing my mind, ported it is no more researching for me
As far as cubic ft or air space goes, what exactly are you looking at?
Personally Im still modeling the sub at 3.5ft (after port & placment of sub) tuned to 30hz and it appears to have a surprizingly flat!
Like I said the guy installing wants to tune it to 32hz (I think hes got a thing for 32hz for some reason ) I on the other hand want 27hz but will go upward to 30hz but no higher.
I dont really care about the grill, I dont use my trunk anyway but I do want this to sound better, if it sounds better then yeah ill definetly go for it. I think your the only person on this forum that knows that the sub I got really is capable of so ill give it a shot. Im going to need then #'s & all by friday night because saturday morning im going to drop the car off to being the install.
You guys are nuts You & the guy installing my stuff make it seem like a "little" sub & a little amp. I know its not an A/B powered amp but it should still sound VERY impressive when all is said and done.
As far as cubic ft or air space goes, what exactly are you looking at?
Personally Im still modeling the sub at 3.5ft (after port & placment of sub) tuned to 30hz and it appears to have a surprizingly flat!
Like I said the guy installing wants to tune it to 32hz (I think hes got a thing for 32hz for some reason
) I on the other hand want 27hz but will go upward to 30hz but no higher. I dont really care about the grill, I dont use my trunk anyway but I do want this to sound better, if it sounds better then yeah ill definetly go for it. I think your the only person on this forum that knows that the sub I got really is capable of so ill give it a shot. Im going to need then #'s & all by friday night because saturday morning im going to drop the car off to being the install.
You guys are nuts
You & the guy installing my stuff make it seem like a "little" sub & a little amp. I know its not an A/B powered amp but it should still sound VERY impressive when all is said and done.
01-07-2004, 10:03 PM
#39
Guest
Posts: n/a
I am an SQ nut so I will keep pushing you toward the lower tune - better transients, etc. I also prefer to keep equipment in good condition for years instead of weeks or months. That is a second reason for the lower tuning frequency. The higher you tune, you have less range of possible notes. I listen to too much fun stuff with low bass that would really suck on a high tuned box. Mickey Hart, Telarc CD's, anything with a lot of synthesizer, Bach, Dazed and Confused, etc. The point of a big sub for me is to be able to hit all the notes. Not to hit a wall at 32 or 30 Hz.
01-07-2004, 11:01 PM
#40
I agree with you 100% Im all about SQ. If you tune it to say 30hz, it doesnt mean it cant play in the low 20hz region. I just want a very bass heavy low end which 32 seems to be a bit too much for my taste. I know with a 32hz tune the impact of the sub will be stronger then at 30 or 27 but the thing is, its still one of the best subs you can buy. Im sure its still going to pound pretty damn hard regardless of tune.
Honestly to begin with, my original plan was a 3.5cu.ft box tuned to 23.5hz. Its just that above 50hz it seemed that it was going to be a bit weaker. I was advised to go upto atleast 27hz, even 30hz.
Its just that after modeling box size after size, tune after tune. 30hz seems to hit the low 20s pretty damn strong. Or atleast thats what WinISD shows me
Yes it does drop off a bit, but with the octave boost that comes on at 20hz, it end up pretty flat as far as response goes.
Ive been modeling between 2.75-4.0ft box tuned between 27-30hz and the difference in the low 20's seems to be about 3-4db drop from 25hz going down to 20hz at a 30hz tune. With a 27hz tune the drop off is about .5-1 db between the diff boxes...im thinking about it, I might have him tune it to 27hz.
If you can have the specs by friday, that would be great. If not, then no biggie the normal ported setup will work just fine.
Btw, what should I have them set the SSF set at? same as the port tune im guessing?
Oh and one other thing, I would break the sub in free-air but I have NO IDEA how to hook it up or anything. Ive never messed with this stuff be4. Im going to keep the gain no higher then 1/4 for the 1st week, then slowly crank it upward to 1/2 by the 2nd week and leave it at that til a month has gone by. They ill see what this thing can REALLY do at 100%
Honestly to begin with, my original plan was a 3.5cu.ft box tuned to 23.5hz. Its just that above 50hz it seemed that it was going to be a bit weaker. I was advised to go upto atleast 27hz, even 30hz.
Its just that after modeling box size after size, tune after tune. 30hz seems to hit the low 20s pretty damn strong. Or atleast thats what WinISD shows me
Yes it does drop off a bit, but with the octave boost that comes on at 20hz, it end up pretty flat as far as response goes.
Ive been modeling between 2.75-4.0ft box tuned between 27-30hz and the difference in the low 20's seems to be about 3-4db drop from 25hz going down to 20hz at a 30hz tune. With a 27hz tune the drop off is about .5-1 db between the diff boxes...im thinking about it, I might have him tune it to 27hz.
If you can have the specs by friday, that would be great. If not, then no biggie the normal ported setup will work just fine.
Btw, what should I have them set the SSF set at? same as the port tune im guessing?
Oh and one other thing, I would break the sub in free-air but I have NO IDEA how to hook it up or anything. Ive never messed with this stuff be4. Im going to keep the gain no higher then 1/4 for the 1st week, then slowly crank it upward to 1/2 by the 2nd week and leave it at that til a month has gone by. They ill see what this thing can REALLY do at 100%