grey99max building another 3.5 - Page 2

*Deckdout2* · 03-24-2009, 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grey99max

My guess is that because Cosworth produces parts and engines for many different makes and models in other countries, the engine dyno numbers are the best common reference for power. They certainly can't build an engine or major component, install it in all cars that use that part, and do a chassis dyno for each of the cars... although that would make for interesting reading and I would like the job of driving all of those cars!

Converting crank HP to wheel HP also depends on several things, but using 20% HP loss from crank to wheel is a good guess. 400 crank HP is 320 WHP, for instance, using the 20% number, or 405 dyno WHP is 506 crank HP. There is no one number for drivetrain losses - too many variations in drivetrain, you know.

Of course. I see exactly what you're saying put in those perspectives. In other words is it safe to assume that these numbers at the wheels would net under 300whp going off that particular equation give or take multiple setups?

I hope I'm not misinterpreting the calculations here.

*grey99max* · 03-24-2009, 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deckdout2

Of course. I see exactly what you're saying put in those perspectives. In other words is it safe to assume that these numbers at the wheels would net under 300whp going off that particular equation give or take multiple setups?

I hope I'm not misinterpreting the calculations here.

Just take 80% of the crank HP - 350 crank HP would then be around 280 WHP. WHP is what matters anyway.... Manual transmissions generally have a few percent less power loss than automatics.

**Kevlo911** · 03-24-2009, 01:01 PM

So when do you want me to come up there so we can throw it in my car?

*grey99max* · 03-24-2009, 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevlo911

So when do you want me to come up there so we can throw it in my car?

No, you're not getting my new shiny engine - no way. Of course there is this old VQ35 sitting in the car right now that may be surplus.... just let me dyno 450 WHP first.. I think a 235-shot should handle that.

streetzlegend · 03-24-2009, 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aaron92SE

That's what a LOT of people are doing.

www.maxus09.com

June 26-28, 2009 in Washington, DC

The Drag Showdown will be at Maryland International Raceway on Sat, June 27th. We have rented out the entire track and we have it all to ourselves!

The drag classes and rules are still being compiled. I am the one in charge of all that. So let me know if you have any questions and I'll do my best to answer them.

But, go ahead and count on you qualifying for the "Maxima Unlimited" class where anything goes as long as it looks like a Maxima on the outside and you meet the normal IHRA safety rules that the track will enforce.

Question, what if based on IHRA rules a maxima at this event requires a roll cage, will that person still be able to run considering this is a special private event? or nah?

kzoosho · 03-24-2009, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by streetzlegend

Question, what if based on IHRA rules a maxima at this event requires a roll cage, will that person still be able to run considering this is a special private event? or nah?

Yea what he said.

***Aaron92SE*** · 03-24-2009, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by streetzlegend

Question, what if based on IHRA rules a maxima at this event requires a roll cage, will that person still be able to run considering this is a special private event? or nah?

That's a good question. It strongly depends how strict of a track they are.

The IHRA rule book states that if you are 11.49 or faster, a roll bar must be installed. I will raise these questions to the track to see what would happen if one of the cars cracks the 11.49 barrier.

Also, make sure you follow the normal helmet and fire jacket rules. I will make sure those rules are printed in the Drag Showdown rules once I confirm everything with the latest IHRA rulebook.

***Aaron92SE*** · 03-24-2009, 04:27 PM

I just looked over the 2009 IHRA rulebook.

A SN 90 or newer helmet is required for 13.99 or faster cars.

When you hit 11.49 or faster, a SN 95 or newer helmet is required along with a minimum 3.2A-1 jacket and 6 point roll bar. A full cage isn't needed until you hit 135mph.

I just thought I'd confirm a few things.

*grey99max* · 03-24-2009, 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aaron92SE

I just looked over the 2009 IHRA rulebook.

A SN 90 or newer helmet is required for 13.99 or faster cars.

When you hit 11.49 or faster, a SN 95 or newer helmet is required along with a minimum 3.2A-1 jacket and 6 point roll bar. A full cage isn't needed until you hit 135mph.

I just thought I'd confirm a few things.

Thanks for the research - sounds like streetz and kzoosho are gonna have to watch their times pretty closely, or get tossed from the track.

kzoosho · 03-24-2009, 08:51 PM

Awee screw it im getting tossed. Its my dd so no cage for me lol.

*DrunkieTheBear* · 03-24-2009, 09:26 PM

you can come join me and biggles at the bar then guys...we don't plan to drag, since the car will have no mods.

kzoosho · 03-24-2009, 09:38 PM

I guess i can after i get tossed lol

MDeezy · 03-25-2009, 05:32 AM

I guess we'd all get at least one pass before they realize how fast your running and then would require helmet etc...

mmg23max · 03-25-2009, 08:34 AM

I wanna get tossed off the track too,all these fast max coming out.

***Aaron92SE*** · 03-25-2009, 09:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grey99max

Thanks for the research - sounds like streetz and kzoosho are gonna have to watch their times pretty closely, or get tossed from the track.

I don't know just yet how strict they are. But if they go by the rules, which they should, they will walk up to you and ask you a few questions. If the track is strict, then they will say that you car is capable of going faster than 11.49 and you can't run again at this track until you have a 6-point roll bar, which is different than a cage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveVQ

you can come join me and biggles at the bar then guys...we don't plan to drag, since the car will have no mods.

I believe they serve beer at this track too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MDeezy

I guess we'd all get at least one pass before they realize how fast your running and then would require helmet etc...

You need a helmet when you crack in the 13s. That's nothing. Everyone should have a Snell approved helmet though if you think it's slightly possible you'll get in the 13s. It's good practice anyway to wear one even if you are slow.

As soon as I am clear on the details of this particular track, I will probably start an Official Drag Showdown thread in the MAXUS forum in order to answer any questions people have.

*grey99max* · 03-25-2009, 09:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aaron92SE

As soon as I am clear on the details of this particular track, I will probably start an Official Drag Showdown thread in the MAXUS forum in order to answer any questions people have.

Now , see what you've started, Aaron - a Maxima Drag Racing Feeding Frenzy !!

Ain't it great?

kzoosho · 03-25-2009, 10:05 AM

I will run street tires to keep my times up and not down lol.

***Aaron92SE*** · 03-25-2009, 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grey99max

Now , see what you've started, Aaron - a Maxima Drag Racing Feeding Frenzy !!

Ain't it great?

Yeah. Sorry about that. I should start my own thread, huh? lol

Quote:

Originally Posted by kzoosho

I will run street tires to keep my times up and not down lol.

You can do that. But I doubt you will qualify for the street class, which will probably be just NA with mufflers, street tires, and full interiors. The rules aren't official just yet, but more than likely, go ahead and count on you being in the all out Unlimited class that allows any power adders and slicks.

*DandyMax* · 03-25-2009, 05:02 PM

Wow someone with a Maxima actually bought Cosworth heads! Never thought I'd see that anytime soon. Must be nice to have cash available... my 3.5 is on hold because of financial issues, I may not be around much this year...

Hope your build turns out well Harold.

*DrunkieTheBear* · 03-25-2009, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DandyMax

Wow someone with a Maxima actually bought Cosworth heads! Never thought I'd see that anytime soon. Must be nice to have cash available... my 3.5 is on hold because of financial issues, I may not be around much this year...

Hope your build turns out well Harold.

i never thought anybody would buy those heads

*grey99max* · 03-25-2009, 08:41 PM

Getting back on track, the Cosworth cams got here today, and I picked up the timing covers, upper oil pan, and LIM which I had glass-bead-blasted. These look pretty good.

One of the Cosworth cams:

Glass-Blasted covers:

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f2...9/DSCN0776.jpg

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f2...9/DSCN0777.jpg

oil pan

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f2...9/DSCN0778.jpg

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f2...9/DSCN0779.jpg

. Sorry to hear about your problems, Dandy - these days, there's a lot of people up and down.... you'll be back. Heck, I was away from racing for about 30 years and it took me three years to remember the simple stuff..

*Jime* · 03-26-2009, 05:51 AM

Looking great Harold, guess I had better watch my a$$.

Be interesting to see what it will do N/A as well, should be a screamer.

I'm like Dan in the financial world, especially being on a fixed income. However my biggest expense is replacing the engine which is getting cheaper every year.

*grey99max* · 03-26-2009, 08:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jime

Looking great Harold, guess I had better watch my a$$.

Be interesting to see what it will do N/A as well, should be a screamer.

I'm like Dan in the financial world, especially being on a fixed income. However my biggest expense is replacing the engine which is getting cheaper every year.

Hi Jim - not to worry - you're still King Of The Hill...

The VQ35 is quite remarkable for making big HP with a stock engine, or a stock lower end at least (like me). I'm building this "monster motor" because I can, while I can still build stuff and go racing. Being 65, I'm not sure how much longer I can keep going, what with medical issues and all...

I'm hoping for some NA increases, of course, but except for the ported heads there's not much there that will raise NA HP with 6500 RPM shifts. The goal is to build an engine that can be pushed much harder than the stock engine without blowing up - this one has block parts rated at least 1000 HP, and a 10,500 RPM valve train, so there is room for experimenting for more power (try 300-shot). I selected the ZK2 cams because of the wide torque band, which should work well with nitrous. I know you're a believer on spraying and shifting at low RPMS - but "what if" I can spray more at higher RPMS - will this help extend the power band to 7500-9000 ???

Several suppliers are very interested on how this engine performs - especially at the higher RPMS. The intake decision is still up in the air - I use a SSIM and stock MAF and pathy TB for now, but I'll probably have to upgrade intake parts if I shoot for 8000-9000 shifts. I dunno yet - but it's gonna be fun. ---and if I replace just the pistons, I can go the the dark side and turbo the engine--- if I can figure that out...

*DandyMax* · 03-26-2009, 08:16 AM

Jim if I only had an engine to buy it'd be a snap, but I'm going the standalone ECU route, add in cams and some other stuff and that's not cheap and I'm so house poor it's not funny. Guess I'll be living vicariously through you guys... haha... have fun at Maxus.

Harold you bet I'll be back... well technically I'm not going anywhere, just looks (at this point) like my car will be sitting in the garage for a long time...

I'll still check in from time to time to see how you 2 and some other people are doing...

BTW Harold I think you'll want to upgrade the intake setup right from the manifold out if you're talking about 8000 rpms.

kzoosho · 03-26-2009, 09:23 AM

Z33 manifold with a spacer for me. I would look into Harold.

*grey99max* · 03-26-2009, 09:34 AM

Would you guys look at this Cosworth intake manifold? I can't figure out if the design is any good for drag racing. Besides the fact that it's built for RWD cars - which can be changed with a welder...

http://www.cosworthusa.com/store/pc/...2&idproduct=89

kzoosho · 03-26-2009, 09:37 AM

Im sure you can make it work but i seen the price of that intake and well lets say i went and bought a car for less lol.

*grey99max* · 03-26-2009, 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kzoosho

Im sure you can make it work but i seen the price of that intake and well lets say i went and bought a car for less lol.

Yeah, but would the manifold be worth the effort??? The power curve Cosworth shows on that page doesn't seem to make additional HP over the OEM intake - just extends the power curve upwards a bunch.

Actually, I've seen them for about $1,000 - about the Kinetix price. Not cheap, but nothing else has been.

**mtrai760** · 03-26-2009, 09:56 AM

With the cost of those Cosworth heads, an IM is a drop in the bucket

*Deckdout2* · 03-26-2009, 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grey99max

Yeah, but would the manifold be worth the effort??? The power curve Cosworth shows on that page doesn't seem to make additional HP over the OEM intake - just extends the power curve upwards a bunch.

Actually, I've seen them for about $1,000 - about the Kinetix price. Not cheap, but nothing else has been.

That area under the curve is where the most fun can be had. I'm interested in the findings here as well. It's a nice piece, but if it will yield the most power, I should look into it more vigorously.

Also, wouldn't you have to use the Z33 lower intake manifold for this to work? It doesn't look like Cosworth supplied that part, just the upper.

*DrunkieTheBear* · 03-26-2009, 11:44 AM

I was thinking about using the Cossy IM myself as well. Would like to see your findings before I do

*Deckdout2* · 03-26-2009, 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grey99max

Cosworth Head/Cam Components testing PDF link: crazy NA HP + RPM gains with all options..

http://www.cosworthusa.com/store/pc/...nt%20tests.pdf

Ok, here's my dilemma with going with the Cosworth components according to the dyno posted above and I could be wrong here, but the gains from this dyno when calculated and put into WHP perspectives doesn't seem to rocket over 300whp. Is this because these components are being tested by themselves against stock components, or are other full mods being accounted for here. It just seems that with all the available options out there, that achieving over 300whp could be attained using the lesser expensive options. Now if this dyno comparo is not taking into consideration the remaining bolt-on mods available, then these components should be a hauss under proper installation accompaning the rest of the bolt-ons and a good tune. I'm just doing a comparison here against other available components with the power output that could be achieve by going a cheaper route. Not sure if anyone understands what I'm trying to get at here, but curious to see what others think about the breakdown of these tested peripherals. Am I making any sense?

*grey99max* · 03-26-2009, 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deckdout2

That area under the curve is where the most fun can be had. I'm interested in the findings here as well. It's a nice piece, but if it will yield the most power, I should look into it more vigorously.

Also, wouldn't you have to use the Z33 lower intake manifold for this to work? It doesn't look like Cosworth supplied that part, just the upper.

If you haven't seen these graphs yet, take a look. There are several different combinations of OEM vs. Cosworth parts tested here. The power curves are interesting... and last is best..

http://www.cosworthusa.com/store/pc/...nt%20tests.pdf

And yes, the Cosworth IM appears to be just the upper part..

EDIT: you just beat me to it..

**Kevlo911** · 03-26-2009, 02:11 PM

Wow buddy, that is some serious stuff man

*grey99max* · 03-27-2009, 08:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevlo911

Wow buddy, that is some serious stuff man

That's how the big boys do business - and Cosworth is a Big Boy internationally.

Now I have a small setback on my build - the box of custom timing gears arrived last night at the post office - empty. Somewhere along the line the box came open and dumped all those custom gears and spacers out, never to be seen again.

I've got to figure out what to do next - probably contact StephenMax about building another set...

mmg23max · 03-27-2009, 08:33 AM

sorry to hear that man, how much does he charge to make the custom gears?

*mowgli29* · 03-27-2009, 08:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grey99max

That's how the big boys do business - and Cosworth is a Big Boy internationally.

Now I have a small setback on my build - the box of custom timing gears arrived last night at the post office - empty. Somewhere along the line the box came open and dumped all those custom gears and spacers out, never to be seen again.

I've got to figure out what to do next - probably contact StephenMax about building another set...

I pmed you back...again, I'm terribly sorry about this! I'm really thankful I insured them, but that doesn't make this any less of a PITA for you

I'm looking thru old PMs from StephenMax, and I'll PM you with all the info you need to get new ones made. Like I said, StephenMax is a good guy, he was really helpful to me, so I think he'll be willing to help you out.

I'm so mad at those idiots at USPS right now...I just can't believe those precious gears are gone forever

I was really looking forward to someone putting them to good use!

***Aaron92SE*** · 03-27-2009, 09:08 AM

Oh man that sucks! I always insure my packages as well.

When shipping heavy packages, I always go NUTS with the tape.

*mowgli29* · 03-27-2009, 09:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aaron92SE

Oh man that sucks! I always insure my packages as well.

When shipping heavy packages, I always go NUTS with the tape.

As do I!

But the lady at USPS made me re-package them, in a flat rate box, and apparently she ended up using SCOTCH TAPE

from now on I'll be insisting on my OWN packaging methods

**Kevlo911** · 03-27-2009, 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grey99max

That's how the big boys do business - and Cosworth is a Big Boy internationally.

Now I have a small setback on my build - the box of custom timing gears arrived last night at the post office - empty. Somewhere along the line the box came open and dumped all those custom gears and spacers out, never to be seen again.

I've got to figure out what to do next - probably contact StephenMax about building another set...

First prob, using USPS. FedEx usually good.

Maybe the parts will turn up, but if they do they will prob be dinged up.