75mm TB without an adaptor plate.
05-26-2008, 01:14 PM
#1
75mm TB without an adaptor plate.
Well after toying around with the idea of an aftermarket Mustang 75mm TB on my 3.5L swap for about a month I finally just did it. The throttle cables will go on top, but aside from looking odd I can't imagine it being a detriment in anyway. You'll have to switch to a mustang TPS, or make an adaptor for the 4th gen TPS.
**Edited**4th gen tps=.5-4kohm '00 4.6L tps=.6-3.8kohm I think they're close enough but they may not be. (They are, not just theory anymore
It works. 2 weeks driving on it, haven't seen a problem yet)
The hardware part though, pretty much is confirmed. Here's the pics.
You have to move the throttle cable side holes maybe 4-5mm outboard to make it fit the 3.5L manifold.
On the bottom holes, use the TB as a template and drill and tap two 6x1.0 threaded holes below the factory ones.
That leaves you with this. Obviously some porting is neccesary.
The factory hole with the arrow pointing to it needs plugged it'll be closer to the opening than I would trust to seal.
I haven't finished the port matching yet, however there's plenty of material there. The coolant passage on the bottom will become vacuum, there's no doubt there, you can't get close enough without cutting into the passage. So either plug it or use it for a vacuum source.
**Edited**4th gen tps=.5-4kohm '00 4.6L tps=.6-3.8kohm I think they're close enough but they may not be. (They are, not just theory anymore
It works. 2 weeks driving on it, haven't seen a problem yet)The hardware part though, pretty much is confirmed. Here's the pics.
You have to move the throttle cable side holes maybe 4-5mm outboard to make it fit the 3.5L manifold.
On the bottom holes, use the TB as a template and drill and tap two 6x1.0 threaded holes below the factory ones.
That leaves you with this. Obviously some porting is neccesary.
The factory hole with the arrow pointing to it needs plugged it'll be closer to the opening than I would trust to seal.
I haven't finished the port matching yet, however there's plenty of material there. The coolant passage on the bottom will become vacuum, there's no doubt there, you can't get close enough without cutting into the passage. So either plug it or use it for a vacuum source.
Last edited by HM_Motorsports; 06-22-2008 at 07:59 PM.
05-26-2008, 01:15 PM
#2
The (almost) finished product.
I'll update as soon as I figure out the TPS deal.
Did some porting tonight. here's a rough idea of the work required.
The lower outside edge you have to be careful, it won't be completely flat, it's simply too thin. But with a little more work I think I can get it to be of minimal obtrusion. I haven't hit the coolant port either, which I was surprised, the passage must be smaller than I originally thought.
Not finished yet. I only had an hour or so tonight free to mess with it. I haven't done anymore on the cruise control yet other than look, but I've got some ideas now.
I'll update as soon as I figure out the TPS deal.
Did some porting tonight. here's a rough idea of the work required.
The lower outside edge you have to be careful, it won't be completely flat, it's simply too thin. But with a little more work I think I can get it to be of minimal obtrusion. I haven't hit the coolant port either, which I was surprised, the passage must be smaller than I originally thought.
Not finished yet. I only had an hour or so tonight free to mess with it. I haven't done anymore on the cruise control yet other than look, but I've got some ideas now.
Last edited by HM_Motorsports; 05-29-2008 at 06:06 PM.
05-26-2008, 01:17 PM
#3
And the porting is done.
It clears everything, the throttle cable hooks up just fine and is in a great place for a bracket, ride by the top two bolts for the intake neck. Also in the picture below you can see the cruise is right by the extra hookup on the throttle cam. I just need to find one of the ends that hook to that. (probably off a mustang, I'll make a trip to the ford dealer tommorrow to see if you can just buy the end or have to get the whole cable)
And a shot straight through the open TB.
All and all, even if the Ford TPS doesn't work and I have to make an adaptor for the 4th gen TPS, this is relatively simple to do. It does require some time to port it all out but I have about $125 in the TB, TPS, and TPS pigtail all together. I never did hit the coolant port, but I like the idea of those two ends being vacuum so I probably will drill a hole to make them as such. Lemme know your thoughts!
***SIDE NOTE*** This thottle cam is a progressive type. The more you push the pedal the faster it opens. You only get about half the pedal travel you used to, which is either good or bad depending, my car was already touchy, now it'll be REALLY touchy. Plus you might want to make a pedal stop so you don't break the cable during WOT, or change the cable attachment to the pedal to be lower to gain back some travel. We'll see how it drives.
More on the TPS to come. Car should start this weekend. Taking a weeks vacation next week just to enjoy it!
It clears everything, the throttle cable hooks up just fine and is in a great place for a bracket, ride by the top two bolts for the intake neck. Also in the picture below you can see the cruise is right by the extra hookup on the throttle cam. I just need to find one of the ends that hook to that. (probably off a mustang, I'll make a trip to the ford dealer tommorrow to see if you can just buy the end or have to get the whole cable)
And a shot straight through the open TB.
All and all, even if the Ford TPS doesn't work and I have to make an adaptor for the 4th gen TPS, this is relatively simple to do. It does require some time to port it all out but I have about $125 in the TB, TPS, and TPS pigtail all together. I never did hit the coolant port, but I like the idea of those two ends being vacuum so I probably will drill a hole to make them as such. Lemme know your thoughts!
***SIDE NOTE*** This thottle cam is a progressive type. The more you push the pedal the faster it opens. You only get about half the pedal travel you used to, which is either good or bad depending, my car was already touchy, now it'll be REALLY touchy. Plus you might want to make a pedal stop so you don't break the cable during WOT, or change the cable attachment to the pedal to be lower to gain back some travel. We'll see how it drives.
More on the TPS to come. Car should start this weekend. Taking a weeks vacation next week just to enjoy it!
Last edited by HM_Motorsports; 05-29-2008 at 06:18 PM.
05-26-2008, 03:28 PM
#5
Wow, very nice. It's cool that it works with little modification, too. I'm curious as to how stuff matches up, though, as it looks like part of the factory opening will actually be outside the walls of the new throttlebody (and consequently not used) but it seems like it would be a tiny part. I'll reserve that thought until I see the finished product, though.
You mind telling us specifically which throttlebody this is and where you got it from?
You mind telling us specifically which throttlebody this is and where you got it from?
05-26-2008, 04:00 PM
#6
Wow, very nice. It's cool that it works with little modification, too. I'm curious as to how stuff matches up, though, as it looks like part of the factory opening will actually be outside the walls of the new throttlebody (and consequently not used) but it seems like it would be a tiny part. I'll reserve that thought until I see the finished product, though.
You mind telling us specifically which throttlebody this is and where you got it from?
You mind telling us specifically which throttlebody this is and where you got it from?
05-27-2008, 05:55 AM
#7
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Oh **** yeah! This is awesome innovation!!! I'm psyched right now!! Also the side benefit of getting two more vacuum lines is awesome! One of them is perfect local' and size for Evap, and allthough small, the other one provides a nice alternative to drilling & tapping a 5/8"s hole in the back of the manifold for EGR. Oooh, this is awesome. I swear to god if you can get cruise on that puppy that would top it all off.
Re: tps. Does the stang one turn the other way? Mreaning, you need to be careful, I once foolishly mounted the max tps on the other side of the tb (because it's SOOOO much easier) even though I KNEW you couldn't do that. Boy did I feel like a tool when I had wot @ idle and vice versa.
FYI I have a tps off of an SN95 collecting dust, it's yours if you want it no shipping.
Re: tps. Does the stang one turn the other way? Mreaning, you need to be careful, I once foolishly mounted the max tps on the other side of the tb (because it's SOOOO much easier) even though I KNEW you couldn't do that. Boy did I feel like a tool when I had wot @ idle and vice versa.
FYI I have a tps off of an SN95 collecting dust, it's yours if you want it no shipping.
Last edited by KRRZ350; 05-27-2008 at 06:00 AM.
05-27-2008, 03:11 PM
#9
Oh **** yeah! This is awesome innovation!!! I'm psyched right now!! Also the side benefit of getting two more vacuum lines is awesome! One of them is perfect local' and size for Evap, and allthough small, the other one provides a nice alternative to drilling & tapping a 5/8"s hole in the back of the manifold for EGR. Oooh, this is awesome. I swear to god if you can get cruise on that puppy that would top it all off.
Re: tps. Does the stang one turn the other way? Mreaning, you need to be careful, I once foolishly mounted the max tps on the other side of the tb (because it's SOOOO much easier) even though I KNEW you couldn't do that. Boy did I feel like a tool when I had wot @ idle and vice versa.
FYI I have a tps off of an SN95 collecting dust, it's yours if you want it no shipping.
Re: tps. Does the stang one turn the other way? Mreaning, you need to be careful, I once foolishly mounted the max tps on the other side of the tb (because it's SOOOO much easier) even though I KNEW you couldn't do that. Boy did I feel like a tool when I had wot @ idle and vice versa.
FYI I have a tps off of an SN95 collecting dust, it's yours if you want it no shipping.
Back on topic lol. The TPS situation... the mustang TB actually does work backwards from the 4th gen TB, but my theory is this; if you take Ohm readings of the three wires, there's a power wire, signal, and ground. The resistance between power and signal act directly opposite of the resistance between signal and ground. For instance, when the resistance between power and signal is .5 kOhms the resistance between ground and signal will be 4kOhms and vice versa, so if the throttle body opens opposite of factory, just switch the power and ground wire. Voila! In theory. Anyone please feel free to correct my thinking. If my understanding is correct a TPS is a glorified Potentiometer so it doesn't care which side the power comes from. Once I actually am able to start the car (which hopefully will be tommorrow night or the next) I can verify or nullify these theories.
Thank you BTW for the offer on the TPS, however a brand new one at the local parts store is only 26 bucks, which is another benefit because if IIRC a 4th gen TPS is over $100, incidently the Ford TPS pigtail I got from the Ferd dealer to replace the 4th gen pigtail is $26 as well(which I stashed after I cut off in case this doesn't work).
I'll not be able to finish up tonight, but hopefully tommorrow night I'll have more complete pictures and a better idea of how to make the cruise work.
05-30-2008, 01:47 PM
#15
I have a pretty full schedual tonight and tommorrow but I'm gonna try my best to fire her up on Sunday so we'll know more about the TPS. That's the only big question now.
05-30-2008, 06:14 PM
#16
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I dont want to sound like a **** but 75mm is too big even for a stock 4.6 mustang. We have done dyno's at school and seen drops in horsepower and torque because and an engine needs a certain amount of restriction to keep the air velocity up. Other than that I hope everything works. Just "food for thought" anyway.
05-30-2008, 07:38 PM
#17
I dont want to sound like a **** but 75mm is too big even for a stock 4.6 mustang. We have done dyno's at school and seen drops in horsepower and torque because and an engine needs a certain amount of restriction to keep the air velocity up. Other than that I hope everything works. Just "food for thought" anyway.
05-30-2008, 07:49 PM
#18
I dont want to sound like a **** but 75mm is too big even for a stock 4.6 mustang. We have done dyno's at school and seen drops in horsepower and torque because and an engine needs a certain amount of restriction to keep the air velocity up. Other than that I hope everything works. Just "food for thought" anyway.
I'd like to see those dynos though. I know quite a few running around with 75's that seem to perform quite well.
05-31-2008, 07:39 AM
#20
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On top of that they aren't a VQ either. HM, I'm hoping that you have done a decent SSIM on this upper and that you'e be willing to do a little something.......
I'd be willing to send you an SSIM'd upper with modified DBW to cable, to borrow, and swap it out at the dyno to see what just 5mm on the TB add's to an SSIM'd hybrid?
05-31-2008, 03:49 PM
#21
I may take you up on that KRRZ, I'd be interested to see, although not my intended purpose, I don't doubt it might add a little bit of top end. However, I did NOT do the ARP rod bolts so no extended Rev limit yet, plus Emanage has yet to be installed. The intake is SSIM'd(you can critique it, the pics are in my build thread) no port matching. So I don't know if we'd get the full potential without the extended rev limit, but I'm sure there's potential.
06-01-2008, 08:03 AM
#22
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Join Date: May 2005
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I'd like to see those dynos though. I know quite a few running around with 75's that seem to perform quite well.[/QUOTE]
Ill see what I can find, I already finished the class but it was just really weird to see a 4.6 mustang lose a pretty significant amount of hp and torque to throttle body sizing. It was something like 15 hp and 20 torque we lost at the wheels.
Ill see what I can find, I already finished the class but it was just really weird to see a 4.6 mustang lose a pretty significant amount of hp and torque to throttle body sizing. It was something like 15 hp and 20 torque we lost at the wheels.
06-04-2008, 05:59 AM
#24
Seems to me that in addition to the SSIM, you would also need a larger MAF to fully take advantage of the larger TB.
06-04-2008, 09:12 PM
#26
Exactly.
Sorry for the delay guys, I know I keep saying "tomorrow" but yet again I have to say the same thing. I tried to take vacation this week to finish the car, didn't work out, ended up working the first half of the week. But today I made Uber progress, would've made more except I decided to not put the PS pump on with the motor out, hoping to ease installation. WRONG!!!! (plus my Honda loving cohort trying to rebuild a jeep transfer case
didn't turn out so well so got pulled away for that a little bit.) Anyways, it's in now. Got a couple of things to button up in the morning and with any luck I will have at least a preliminary report on whether the TPS works ok or not.
Sorry for the delay guys, I know I keep saying "tomorrow" but yet again I have to say the same thing. I tried to take vacation this week to finish the car, didn't work out, ended up working the first half of the week. But today I made Uber progress, would've made more except I decided to not put the PS pump on with the motor out, hoping to ease installation. WRONG!!!! (plus my Honda loving cohort trying to rebuild a jeep transfer case
didn't turn out so well so got pulled away for that a little bit.) Anyways, it's in now. Got a couple of things to button up in the morning and with any luck I will have at least a preliminary report on whether the TPS works ok or not.
. in for the final conclusion.
06-08-2008, 10:48 PM
#28
Final conlusion not so conclusive
. Of course I did this along with a 3.5L swap to make it even more difficult to troubleshoot, many more variables. tonight I got everything back together, fluids in, and tried to start her up. Keyword: tried. It was 11:30 by the time we fixed a small fuel leak and finally cranked it over. Cranked really slow, didn't fire. Checked the battery, good; cables. Forgot the MAIN GROUND cable to the block.
Felt like an idiot. Now it cranks really well. Still no fire. Checked all the harness connections, pulled codes, only tranny codes from the 5spd swap. Had them before. Timing light shows erratic spark, not steady at all. I have a feeling it's the CPS on the flywheel. I ground the block down, but it still sits higher than the factory one maybe 1/16 to 1/8". So may not have ground enough. Didn't have time to mess with it tonight. I'll have to go through and thoroughly diagnose it tom evening, but I don't suspect that the TPS would keep if from even trying to fire. I don't really care what it is as long as I don't have to re-time the thing in the car. Was kindof hoping that it'd just start right up and sing, no such luck lol. So yet again,,,tommorrow.
. Of course I did this along with a 3.5L swap to make it even more difficult to troubleshoot, many more variables. tonight I got everything back together, fluids in, and tried to start her up. Keyword: tried. It was 11:30 by the time we fixed a small fuel leak and finally cranked it over. Cranked really slow, didn't fire. Checked the battery, good; cables. Forgot the MAIN GROUND cable to the block. Felt like an idiot. Now it cranks really well. Still no fire. Checked all the harness connections, pulled codes, only tranny codes from the 5spd swap. Had them before. Timing light shows erratic spark, not steady at all. I have a feeling it's the CPS on the flywheel. I ground the block down, but it still sits higher than the factory one maybe 1/16 to 1/8". So may not have ground enough. Didn't have time to mess with it tonight. I'll have to go through and thoroughly diagnose it tom evening, but I don't suspect that the TPS would keep if from even trying to fire. I don't really care what it is as long as I don't have to re-time the thing in the car. Was kindof hoping that it'd just start right up and sing, no such luck lol. So yet again,,,tommorrow.
06-10-2008, 09:01 AM
#29
New 90mm MAF for $79.95
You probably don't want jokes right now, but maybe a larger MAF would help?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Parts...m250257715496&
.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Parts...m250257715496&
.
06-10-2008, 09:03 AM
#30
You probably don't want jokes right now, but maybe a larger MAF would help?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Parts...m250257715496&
.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Parts...m250257715496&
.
Originally Posted by HM_Motorsports
That will happen once Emanage is installed and I figure out how to do what Dandy did
Originally Posted by Me
Ahh.. elimination of MAF altogether, FTW.
Originally Posted by HM_Motorsports
Exactly.
06-10-2008, 03:24 PM
#32
Still haven't started the car. Sunday is the last day I got to mess with it. Still a no start for other reasons. I'll have time tommorrow hopefully. I'm cursed by forever having to say "Tomorrow"
06-15-2008, 12:13 AM
#33
Tommorrow finally came!
The car started. Seems the CPS ring on the UDP was 180* off. After messing with the idle screws(I have 2 now) and cleaning the MAF the car runs almost perfect. Throttle response is great, runs smooth, idles at 650 at 14.7(LM1 confirmed)but has a habit of dying out when you quick rev and then let off. Seems to get better once it reaches temp. I'm sure with a little more adjustment it can be resolved.
One more issue easily resolved. It likes to stick above 4k. The spring on the TB isn't strong enough to close it fully, so sometimes it sticks open. I'll post pics tommorrow of my cable setup and if you make a bracket similar to mine it's very easy to just add a return spring.
Haven't driven it yet, it's 3am, and I still need to finalize a few things on the car before its road worthy(sticky throttle being one of them), but I can't wait.
One more issue easily resolved. It likes to stick above 4k. The spring on the TB isn't strong enough to close it fully, so sometimes it sticks open. I'll post pics tommorrow of my cable setup and if you make a bracket similar to mine it's very easy to just add a return spring.
Haven't driven it yet, it's 3am, and I still need to finalize a few things on the car before its road worthy(sticky throttle being one of them), but I can't wait.
06-15-2008, 01:46 PM
#34
First drive, friggen awesome. If the TB is a hinder to performance, I sure can't tell. Car runs smooth even with Solid motormounts. The spring was easy enough to mount, and the dying after free rev was resolved with a little more adjustment. It'll stumble a little bit, but hasn't died since. I probably could raise the idle to 750 or so and fix the stumble, but I was sick of adjusting and just wanted to drive my car lol. almost 4 months without it, totally worth it.
08-03-2008, 07:29 AM
#36
Sorry I've been slowly compiling stuff, I'll get some pics up soon, just got done moving my shop yesterday, I don't have dynos yet, waiting for the emanage for that, I got the cruise to work by adapting a Ford cable end to my cruise cable. Wasn't hard at all. I'll try to get something up later today.
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