DandyMax

iTrader: (7)

If I run again I'm going to have to dial back the rev limit a bit, the valve train can go to 8k reliably but not the bottom end, so that will hurt me slightly but I'd be aiming for 12.6x and 109 mph. It's not a stretch considering I ran the 12.8 with bad shifting, higher 60 ft's than usual (by a tenth), and missing well over 1000 rpm of power band.

Dave B

"All"? Like how many? Are you talking Maxima's or VQ35 Z/G's too? I can't think of one VQ35 that sees 8000+rpm use and I can't think of many VQ30's on this site that have lived a very long life running near or above 8000rpms. Honestly, I can't think of any VQ30 on this site that have lived long in the 8000rpm range. I don't know why'd you'd run it that high anyway seeing that even with cams, power falls off dramatically above 7500rpms and usually closer to 7000rpms. That's a different argument all together.

A Fluidamper is not mandatory, but it is a great safeguard, whether your stock or modified. Running a non-dampened crank pulley in a VQ-anything at rpms above 6500rpms and you're walking on egg shells. Out of all the VQs I've read about that have had oil pump failures, they were running UDPs at high rpms (6000rpms+). Why do you think race engines that see extreme high rpm usage run fluid-style crank dampers? You'll never find non-dampened crank pullies on Nissan race engines. I wonder why that is

nismology

iTrader: (8)

Audible Mayhem and Adam @ Z1 performance are the two most recent examples of 8000+ reliable RPM using a UDP. There are quite a few other running at > stock redline with non-damped pulleys with ZERO issues.

Theory is nice. Practical truths are better...

How many of them were built/balanced? And when I say balanced, I mean the reciprocating assembly since the rotating assembly is a given.

Dave B

I know it's a not a VQ, but I did find this interesting since we're on the subject of crank dampers and their significance with regards to operational rpms. In this months Motor Trend, there is an article on the new Bullit Mustang. The article specificially discusses the fact that the Bullit Mustang uses a larger and heavier crank damper to allow the V8 to safely spin an extra 500rpms over the standard GT varient.

DasYears

no wonder its so fast :. that just means that the GT can safely go another 500rpm stock

Dave B

Elaborate.

DandyMax

iTrader: (7)

Not so on my engine. It was well worth going to 8000 if the bottom end would have been up for the task. In fact I would have gone to 8200 if I could have, that would have been the ideal shift point.

Alex_V

Do you think if the entire rotating assembly was balanced it would last longer? I'm thinking harmonic balancer (or is it just a pulley?), crank, rods, pistons, flywheel and clutch all balanced.

Would that be good for 7500/7700/8000rpm?

I'll be using this in my s13 (350z oil pan) with megasquirt, and I'll be autocrossing, drifting and going to track days.

Do you think it would be reliable at 7500? Id be bouncing off the revlimiter all the time (well more then most people would be) but MS has a soft limiter and a hard limiter.

Of course I'm concerned about area under the curve too, I'm wanting a nice wide powerband and that seems very possible. Also thinking of ITB's with long runners. I'd make the ITB's myself. I might have to make a custom IM any way because of hood clearance....

I'm looking for at least 220WHP with 3.5L cams and if it can be reliable Id step up to S1's and hopefully 240WHP+. Did you ever get or post a dyno? I haven't seen one but I'll keep looking. Also keep in mind the higher losses I'll get with the RWD 6 speed.

~Alex

spdfreak

Sorry to here the bad news dandymax. I have been keeping a close look to see if you break the best time since the rebuild, but no. Time to get over the VQ30's and into the VQ35's.

Build a VQ35 DE/HR hybrid with the new pistons and intake manifold...

DandyMax

iTrader: (7)

It's ok, it's par for the course when you push things farther than you should against your better judgement.

But see below...

DandyMax

iTrader: (7)

I think if you're planning on going past say, 7300 continually over the long term it should be balanced to be reliable. Otherwise you are most likely going to have an oil pump failure at minimum. I'd get the reciprocating assembly balanced, and also balance the rotating assembly together (damper/pulley, flywheel/PP/clutch included) to an rpm higher than your planned rev limit (eg 9000+). Stock rods appear to be strong enough to 8000-8200 rpm for quick bursts such as drag racing, but who's to say with long term repeated use. If you're taking the bottom end apart anyway it might be worth changing pistons/rods, blueprinting, etc - getting it properly fully built.

Now that's the bottom end. I don't think the valve train on the 3.0 will be reliable long term past ~7300. The HR spring + retainer + double shim will take care of that to ~8000 though, with cam lifts up to ~11mm.


Unfortunately for various reasons I haven't dyno'd since 2 years ago when my engine did 220 with stock cams, and a lousy intake setup.

It's just my edumacated guessing of course but I think that after I did my custom intake, removed the MAF, added a cutout and tweaked a couple other things it got up to the ~230whp range, still on stock DE valvetrain.

Currently with the S1 knockoffs, the setup is not completely optimized yet, the tune needs some fine adjustments in spots, and the setup could really use a custom IM, but as things currently sit I'd be shocked if I wasn't easily over 240whp.

Keep in mind too that when you go to the 3.5 cams you'll have the opportunity to set your cam timing and that will significantly affect the shape of your power band.

Alex_V

Hmm. Maybe I'll just leave the 3L together or at most pull the heads to port match and shave them, or can port match be done on car?

I'm thinking of staying at 7200 stock or 7500 with re-balance of stock parts, do you think S1 cams would gain any power or just mess up the power band

I do want to build a 3.2L for boost, so maybe I'll get pistons/rods and blueprint that. Keep it to 7200 and ebay cams and hr springs again.

I had a post typed up but it got deleted. I do want HR springs and 3.5L cams at the least, and if I get ebay cams double shimmed. And I want to do what KA guys do and drill mutlipul holes so I can change cam timing, though its not really easy to do. Gotta research more on that.

So I'm thinking stock 3L with 3.5L cams, HR springs and long runner ITB's. Proper cam timing and megasquirt tuning should yield at least 220WHP (being RWD)

Or balanced with all stock parts and 7500rpm. 3.5L cams or if I have the budet knock off s1's. Should be good for 240+WHP and Id feel better about high revs constantly. But much more expensive.

Both setups will get HR pumps and custom ITB's and megasquirt, and port matching if thats an issue. I'm starting to think custom headers are required to. But I have welders so no biggie.

One thing though, can you turn a DEK intake manifold around? That would be covering the front cyl head for you FWD guys. That would be perfect as a starting point for my RWD swap.....

I should just make my own thread

~Alex

spdfreak

Any secrets that you want to share with us about a 3.5 swap? Hybrid?

doublea

iTrader: (7)

How do you get the rotating assembly balanced together (damper/pulley, flywheel/PP/clutch included) ?

MorpheusZero

iTrader: (10)

I know this is way OT, but Jim you ever seen Lost? You look exactly like John Locke.

That is all.

DandyMax

iTrader: (7)

All shall be revealed in due time... It's going to be a real franken-motor = "monstrous" performance? lol so corny I am


You need to find a machine shop/engine builder with dynamic balancing equipment (eg a Sunnen machine).

95maxrider

iTrader: (32)

I may only be revving to 7000, but now I feel like I should take off my UDP just to be safe....hmm....

spdfreak

You lead the way. I'll follow.

PM me the specs.

DandyMax

iTrader: (7)

Which flywheel do you have?

7k is probably fine, there are a lot of people even with lighter flywheels that have rev limits in the 7000-7200 range and haven't failed. It only seems to be a problem after that point (with extended use).

95maxrider

iTrader: (32)

Flywheel? Stock. Does that matter? I thought we were talking about UDPs. I have an Unorthodox Racing UDP btw....

DasYears

the flywheel and dampener both do part of the same job of smoothing crank vibrations. what he was saying is if you have a light flywheel and UDP that youre running more of a risk that just one of the two

DandyMax

iTrader: (7)

Just an update to finish the thread. I have now confirmed my initial diagnosis that the revup pump did in fact grenade. The outer gear is in pieces. The engine was saved by the oil pressure cutoff switch however.

For anyone who hasn't read back through this thread, I don't believe the pump is to be blamed here. I pushed the bottom end farther than its limits. If you want to rev a VQ to 8000 rpm, or even into the high 7000's I highly recommend having the reciprocating and rotating assembly balanced or you can expect oil pump failures before long.

nismology

iTrader: (8)

Co-signed.


Thanks for the update bud.

spdfreak

Thanks for the update. Any news on the next motor thats going into your car?

DandyMax

iTrader: (7)

It's out of an I35, currently on the stand in the garage. Various parts have been arriving over the last few weeks and will continue to do so for several weeks. Before long I will start tearing the engine down, only the block will be re-used... after having some work done to it of course.

I'll post up a dedicated thread with details & pics eventually, when it's farther along (a la Meximax)...

I also have to change a pump in the 3.0...

And BTW, I think I mentioned this before, but sometime in early spring, my DEK will be for sale (with stock 3.5 cams and oil pump installed), as well as my EU.

spdfreak

Is the DE-K in working condition if an oil pump is installed? If so, whats the price?

As far as you selling the EU, what are you going to use?

I cant wait to see your new motors specs.
-Bored .060
-HR valve springs, retainers, double shimmed
-head work
-SSIM
-Cams
-HR pistons
-HR oil pump

A real VQ hybrid.

EDIT: Do you have plans to put in another transmission?

nismology

iTrader: (8)

^^^ Umm, no. He'll release specs when he's ready.

t6378tp

iTrader: (69)

projected price on the motor

DandyMax

iTrader: (7)

Yes the DEK will be in running condition. As for price, I haven't really thought about it... as I said it'll be spring before I'm ready to sell it, I'll post about it then too. Feel free to make offers though...

t6378tp

iTrader: (69)

I am not looking for a motor yet, but I was going to save up for a spare motor from the yard but if your motor is in my reach it will give me another option. my biggest wonder will be shipping

do you think the motor will be over or under 600

I guess you can pm with any details that you are willing to share about the motor and I can make a offer.

Alex_V

Yes I would definitely get the rotating assembly balanced! After reading that 303WHP Z thread, he balanced everything to 10K rpm and he spins it to 8400rpm.

I'll keep mine to 7200 untill I can afford to balance it.

That really sucks the pump died. I would have loved to see what that engine could do with a proper setup.

~Alex

DandyMax

iTrader: (7)

I will probably run the 3.0 at the track yet one or two times first thing in the spring, maybe hit the dyno once before putting the 3.5 in... just to see if I can hit the 12.6 I think it'll do. But it won't be revving up quite as high.

spdfreak

Well, not if you want to sell it, you won't rev that high.