Panhard Rod Install on a 4th Gen
04-18-2011, 08:00 AM
#1
Panhard Rod Install on a 4th Gen
We've been doing panhards on the B15s with incredible results, and this weekend we did one on a 4th Gen. The install was very straightforward and the results are amazing.
The OEM SRL provides for an extremely high rear roll center which xfer the weight to the outside front tire too quickly. The car pitches and rolls over. With the panhard the rear roll center drops dramatically and the car no longer pitches forward.
Here is the install we did on Jack's 4th Gen this weekend. The install cost is $649, complete. You can reach us at www.2j-racing.com, and sales@2j-racing.com (email) if you have any question. We are looking for a 5 or 5.5gen to complete the install on (where the SRL is reaward facing)
Thx
Joe
OEM
Panhard / Rear Roll Center Correction
The OEM SRL provides for an extremely high rear roll center which xfer the weight to the outside front tire too quickly. The car pitches and rolls over. With the panhard the rear roll center drops dramatically and the car no longer pitches forward.
Here is the install we did on Jack's 4th Gen this weekend. The install cost is $649, complete. You can reach us at www.2j-racing.com, and sales@2j-racing.com (email) if you have any question. We are looking for a 5 or 5.5gen to complete the install on (where the SRL is reaward facing)
Thx
Joe
OEM
Panhard / Rear Roll Center Correction
04-18-2011, 10:03 AM
#3
I've seen pictures of this on a Sentra before as well. It's an interesting idea, especially because I've noticed the rubber starting to separate from the metal on the side-to-side bushing on my SR link. I was considering buying a new SR link from courtesy or Southpointe, but this seems like a better solution. And much more feasible than something like IRS.
Did you do any structural bracing on the inside of the trunk? Also by the looks of the last picture, the rod seems to be sloping downward. Is there any reason for this? I was under the impression that it is supposed to be parallel to the ground at ride height.
Did you do any structural bracing on the inside of the trunk? Also by the looks of the last picture, the rod seems to be sloping downward. Is there any reason for this? I was under the impression that it is supposed to be parallel to the ground at ride height.
04-18-2011, 12:20 PM
#4
So you can use the stock cat-back with this? I saw the Sentra guys had to run some sort of side exhaust to get this to fit. I'm also curious about why you (or the customer?) didn't go with the Watts linkage instead of the panhard rod, since it's only about $300 more, per the Sentra site.
Do these guys also bend the beam to 0 toe?
Also, what kind of durability testing has been done for larger cars like the 4th gen?
Do these guys also bend the beam to 0 toe?
Also, what kind of durability testing has been done for larger cars like the 4th gen?
04-18-2011, 02:40 PM
#5
You want the panhard to be level on compression, since its asymmetrical. So our angle is in compliance. AFCO has a great whitepaper on panhard setup and it can also be found in our vendor section on www.b15u.com
We braced the framerail beam with a round brace and plate affixed to the OEM SRL mount point. We've tested this design on the racetrack under the toughest conditions and essentially the 4th gen mirrors a B15. Our videos are available under smokinjoe72 on youtube. There was no issues clearing the cat back, and we left room for a 3" later on, if desired.
We dropped the watts idea after failing to get the bell crank low enough for an improved roll center. Its feasible just not effective unfortunately. We estimate the new roll center with our panhard is 4", from 12.5"
We braced the framerail beam with a round brace and plate affixed to the OEM SRL mount point. We've tested this design on the racetrack under the toughest conditions and essentially the 4th gen mirrors a B15. Our videos are available under smokinjoe72 on youtube. There was no issues clearing the cat back, and we left room for a 3" later on, if desired.
We dropped the watts idea after failing to get the bell crank low enough for an improved roll center. Its feasible just not effective unfortunately. We estimate the new roll center with our panhard is 4", from 12.5"
04-18-2011, 03:41 PM
#6
You know I am down to get this done! I like being the Org A32 test monkey for all these new suspension parts.
The only other shops doing this mod are out in California and I would not be able to drive down that far. Atlanta is about a 16 hour drive for me and that is reasonable. How long does this swap take to complete? I can leave Mass in the early evening and be in Atlanta by morning.
My understanding the only drawback to this mod is the rear suspension gets a little more stiff on bumpy roads? It also looks like the panhard swap is lighter than the OEM setup so thats a plus.
95maxrider I am trying to have a rear beam bending jig fabricated next month and will let you know. I might be able to borrow it from the shop if you want to get your beam bent when I head down to Atlanta.
The only other shops doing this mod are out in California and I would not be able to drive down that far. Atlanta is about a 16 hour drive for me and that is reasonable. How long does this swap take to complete? I can leave Mass in the early evening and be in Atlanta by morning.
My understanding the only drawback to this mod is the rear suspension gets a little more stiff on bumpy roads? It also looks like the panhard swap is lighter than the OEM setup so thats a plus.
95maxrider I am trying to have a rear beam bending jig fabricated next month and will let you know. I might be able to borrow it from the shop if you want to get your beam bent when I head down to Atlanta.
04-18-2011, 04:08 PM
#7
1st Panhard Maxima!!!
Thanks for starting this thread Joe. I was actually gonna do the same with my own pics but your pics are much better. And thanks again for fabricating this up for me.
First, i'll start with my prior suspension setup for comparison purposes.
Before
-Stillen Front Strut Tower Brace
-BlehmCo Lower Tie Bar (Stage I)
-Energy Suspension Control Arm Bushings (Rear Only)
-Progress Rear Sway Bar
After
-Stillen Front Strut Tower Brace
-BlehmCo Lower Tie Bar (Stage I)
-Energy Suspension Control Arm Bushings (Rear Only)
-2J Racing Panhard Bar
I sold my progress as i wasn't sure if i'd run into a clearance issue. I have a Stillen RSB, Stillen Camber Plates and new tires awaiting install. Struts/Shocks and Springs are stock which are next on the list to be modded. After removing the progress rsb, the suspension felt very much like a complete factory setup so the left over mods weren't making a noticable difference on their own.
When pushing my previous setup, i got alot of understeer from the car. While on the throttle when turning hard, the inside rear of the chassis would rise and overload the outside front tire. As i backed of the throttle, the grip up front would regain it's balance and the rear would lose it's composure slipping slightly. If I hit the brakes after lifting off the throttle, the rear would slip even more depent on brake pressure applied.
Now for the new. Completely a different car
I autoX my last Maxima and even with all the bar's, coilover's, bushings, and everything other than a panhard, the car would always pitch at the limit and roll horribly. I haven't driven much other than the drive home so my review is limited. From what I can tell so far, the inside rear doesn't lift ever. The rear of the chassis is very planted. On the drive home I purposely went into a sweeping right hand curve way too fast. My current tires are in really really really bad shape so keep this in mind. Similar to my previous setup, while on the throttle, I got mild understeer. When I lifted off the throttle the car understeered a bit more. The thing to note here is that the rear was planted throughout the turn. There was no inside rear lift and no change in composure of the chassis. Absolutely no change in the balance of the chassis. It was very consistent which made we want to push it more. But I didn't push it like that again since understeering at 75 mph with dryrotted tires makes me very nervous.
My next test was a slow speed ninety degree turn. I take this same turn every night afterwork and it's one i use to guage even the smallest changes in suspension mods. I took it at about 75-80% of what I'm used to since I wasn't sure how the car would behave. To my surprise, the inside rear still stayed down but the inside front came right up. I've never seen the car behave this way. It was a very controlled and tight turn. Absolutely no plowing from the outside front.
The car handles completely different and in a very good way. My current limiting factors are tires, and springs/struts. I'll post up more as I mod the car. Either way, I'm very pleased with the mod. I need to drive it some more to get a good feel for it, but so far, I'm impressed. If you guys AutoX or hit the road coarse periodically, this is a must. Will post a more thorough review after new tires are installed.
First, i'll start with my prior suspension setup for comparison purposes.
Before
-Stillen Front Strut Tower Brace
-BlehmCo Lower Tie Bar (Stage I)
-Energy Suspension Control Arm Bushings (Rear Only)
-Progress Rear Sway Bar
After
-Stillen Front Strut Tower Brace
-BlehmCo Lower Tie Bar (Stage I)
-Energy Suspension Control Arm Bushings (Rear Only)
-2J Racing Panhard Bar
I sold my progress as i wasn't sure if i'd run into a clearance issue. I have a Stillen RSB, Stillen Camber Plates and new tires awaiting install. Struts/Shocks and Springs are stock which are next on the list to be modded. After removing the progress rsb, the suspension felt very much like a complete factory setup so the left over mods weren't making a noticable difference on their own.
When pushing my previous setup, i got alot of understeer from the car. While on the throttle when turning hard, the inside rear of the chassis would rise and overload the outside front tire. As i backed of the throttle, the grip up front would regain it's balance and the rear would lose it's composure slipping slightly. If I hit the brakes after lifting off the throttle, the rear would slip even more depent on brake pressure applied.
Now for the new. Completely a different car
I autoX my last Maxima and even with all the bar's, coilover's, bushings, and everything other than a panhard, the car would always pitch at the limit and roll horribly. I haven't driven much other than the drive home so my review is limited. From what I can tell so far, the inside rear doesn't lift ever. The rear of the chassis is very planted. On the drive home I purposely went into a sweeping right hand curve way too fast. My current tires are in really really really bad shape so keep this in mind. Similar to my previous setup, while on the throttle, I got mild understeer. When I lifted off the throttle the car understeered a bit more. The thing to note here is that the rear was planted throughout the turn. There was no inside rear lift and no change in composure of the chassis. Absolutely no change in the balance of the chassis. It was very consistent which made we want to push it more. But I didn't push it like that again since understeering at 75 mph with dryrotted tires makes me very nervous. My next test was a slow speed ninety degree turn. I take this same turn every night afterwork and it's one i use to guage even the smallest changes in suspension mods. I took it at about 75-80% of what I'm used to since I wasn't sure how the car would behave. To my surprise, the inside rear still stayed down but the inside front came right up. I've never seen the car behave this way. It was a very controlled and tight turn. Absolutely no plowing from the outside front.
The car handles completely different and in a very good way. My current limiting factors are tires, and springs/struts. I'll post up more as I mod the car. Either way, I'm very pleased with the mod. I need to drive it some more to get a good feel for it, but so far, I'm impressed. If you guys AutoX or hit the road coarse periodically, this is a must. Will post a more thorough review after new tires are installed.
Last edited by jac121479; 04-18-2011 at 04:10 PM.
04-18-2011, 05:07 PM
#8
04-18-2011, 08:47 PM
#9
You want the panhard to be level on compression, since its asymmetrical. So our angle is in compliance. AFCO has a great whitepaper on panhard setup and it can also be found in our vendor section on www.b15u.com
Would you be willing to sell just the steel in an advanced suspension chassis and braking kit?
04-19-2011, 09:55 PM
#14
it's crazy sick. i really wish i had more curves on my way to work and back. i may buy another set of wheels and tires now to try this out at a local autox even with my nearly stock suspension. the panhard is seriously confidence inspiring. i can take turns and curves so much more aggressively now. it's honestly like driving a different car. no more plowing understeer. it's awesome guys. i highly recommend it.
04-20-2011, 06:58 AM
#15
So many new toys but so late in coming to market 
Heck, the effectiveness of this probably negates the need for an VLSD/LSD.
Jack, you really need to get some coilovers to fully exploit the A32's potential.
Heck, the effectiveness of this probably negates the need for an VLSD/LSD. Jack, you really need to get some coilovers to fully exploit the A32's potential.
04-20-2011, 07:43 AM
#16
Jack,
thanks for the review of the panhard. When we started development, it took several iterations to get the geometry pinpointed on the nissan chassis. Running it on the track helped speed up the process. We took those measurements and applied them to your car. Normally (well in every case) B15 owners grab the panhard as the last upgrade to their suspension. But this was essentially your first. I was very interested to learn how it would perform on an otherwise stock chassis. And the results are very promising.
The next biggest thing for you is getting your Cg down with some springs/coilovers. That'll change the roll axis and improve the handling further.
For those that asked, this is a custom built part that involves a ton of welding, using a plasma cutter and adjusting the dimensions to your car.
Starting today, the panhard for the Maxima will be up on the website. The purchase price includes installation, which takes about 4hrs. We are booked solid through the end of May but contact us and we'll get you on the calendar.
Jack, kept us posted on your progress and thank you for your support. When you are ready for BC coilovers, we can get them custom sprung/valved for you, no charge.
Thx
thanks for the review of the panhard. When we started development, it took several iterations to get the geometry pinpointed on the nissan chassis. Running it on the track helped speed up the process. We took those measurements and applied them to your car. Normally (well in every case) B15 owners grab the panhard as the last upgrade to their suspension. But this was essentially your first. I was very interested to learn how it would perform on an otherwise stock chassis. And the results are very promising.
The next biggest thing for you is getting your Cg down with some springs/coilovers. That'll change the roll axis and improve the handling further.
For those that asked, this is a custom built part that involves a ton of welding, using a plasma cutter and adjusting the dimensions to your car.
Starting today, the panhard for the Maxima will be up on the website. The purchase price includes installation, which takes about 4hrs. We are booked solid through the end of May but contact us and we'll get you on the calendar.
Jack, kept us posted on your progress and thank you for your support. When you are ready for BC coilovers, we can get them custom sprung/valved for you, no charge.
Thx
04-20-2011, 09:40 AM
#17
had this been available 10 years ago, the Maxima & Sentra would be looked upon very differently today. coilovers would be the next logical step in this build. considering the limited mods, the handling is very impressive on the street which makes it very difficult to find the limit of grip. it's almost been impossible to get this thing to understeer at speeds below 50 mph. she just grips evenly and predictably. new tires will increase that speed figure i'm sure. i think i'll need to go to an autox event to find the limitations of the current setup. i'll definitely keep you guys posted.
04-20-2011, 05:01 PM
#18
just installed my stillen rsb. took it for a drive and had alotta fun. it basically feels like i installed a rudder controlled by the throttle. i have a round-a-bout here to test my left turns. i dove in hard and while on the throttle the car maintained a mild slip angle. i backed off the throttle and the angle increased accordingly. it kinda scared me since it was unexpected so once the car slowed i pulled out of the round-a-bout for another approach. every time after that, i made sure to stay on the throttle throughout the turn. the car maintained a slip angle proportionate to the speed of the turn. again, it felt very controlled and very predictable. i'm still on spent tires so i'm sure the same angles would require a greater speed on fresh tires. very excited to install new tires and my Stillen Camber plates up front. still looking for a good place to test right hand turns. will keep you all updated as i get more time to play. again, an awesome mod!!!
Last edited by jac121479; 04-20-2011 at 05:04 PM.
04-21-2011, 02:43 AM
#19
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: SoCal
Posts: 427
hey hey hey!! love'n the panhard bar! GREAT writeup! I was toying with this idea on the 5th gen threads and was told to come to the 4th gen thread to get some more info on the panhard setup. I love the results.
subscribed!! AWESOME!
subscribed!! AWESOME!
Last edited by 00Lightsout; 04-21-2011 at 02:46 AM.
04-22-2011, 10:02 PM
#21
Well, almost a week now and driving has been a blast. I've been throwing the car around very aggressively and I have yet to push beyond the limit. I really wish I could make it out to tomorrows AutoX event, but no spare set of wheels and tires yet so thats on hold. it looks like my next mods will be the remaining ES bushings, Stillen Camber Plates, and as long as everything goes through, some Truax Subframe Connectors. It's kinda strange having these hardcore mods with factory shocks and springs, but the car feels great so i'm in no rush. will post updated reviews after each additional mod.
04-30-2011, 12:39 AM
#23
05-05-2011, 09:47 PM
#25
You should read the thread again. You have to go to atlanta to have it installed, it is a very custom piece that needs to be welded in.
Looks awesome guys, wish I still had my Maxima, I would be down for getting this done.
Looks awesome guys, wish I still had my Maxima, I would be down for getting this done.
05-09-2011, 06:43 AM
#27
Junior Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: DMV
Posts: 19
I can't wait to get mine. Joe and Justin create a lot of great things for the Sentra community and I'm sure if they get the same kind of support here they'll create more great parts for the Maxima community too.
05-17-2011, 03:24 PM
#28
a buddy of mine that ran Gymkhana in Japan and now autox's his Evo X was very impressed from my passenger seat when i took turns that i clearly shouldn't have been able to take with nearly stock suspension. it's an awesome mod guys.
05-18-2011, 10:31 AM
#33
good stuff, glad to see die hard products still out there. just bookmarked 2j-racing
I really liked your reading your review Jac. I completely agree with your comment on taking that "same turn" everyday and being able to gauge some things off that.
I really liked your reading your review Jac. I completely agree with your comment on taking that "same turn" everyday and being able to gauge some things off that.
05-29-2011, 11:03 AM
#34
Joe are there any plans on making a Watts 4 link instead of a Panhard setup?
I hear talk of it on some of the Sentra forums and was wondering if that is in the works for the future.
I hear talk of it on some of the Sentra forums and was wondering if that is in the works for the future.
05-30-2011, 04:32 AM
#35
06-08-2011, 10:24 PM
#38
well, i guess anything is possible, but it would be a wasted effort for Joe to go that route when he could easily just weld it for the folks that actually make it out to his shop. if someone really wants this, bolt-on or not, they're going to get it done. all it would take is a drive to Atlanta, hanging out at Barnes n Noble for 5 hrs while Joe does his thing, and get back on the road with your new panhard rear. i drove almost 11 hrs that day and it was totally worth it.
06-09-2011, 06:41 AM
#39
I sent 2J an email a few days ago but never got a response. Is there a phone number for the shop?
Edit: I've seen beam bending mentioned on the Sentra site but nobody ever answered my question, does 2J perform beam bending?
Also, I know BC doesn't make coilovers for the 4th gen, but I hear 5th gen BCs can be made to fit on a 4th gen. Apparently 2J will install BCs for free if you buy it from them, I wonder if this also applies for Maximas.....
Edit: I've seen beam bending mentioned on the Sentra site but nobody ever answered my question, does 2J perform beam bending?
Also, I know BC doesn't make coilovers for the 4th gen, but I hear 5th gen BCs can be made to fit on a 4th gen. Apparently 2J will install BCs for free if you buy it from them, I wonder if this also applies for Maximas.....
Last edited by 95maxrider; 06-09-2011 at 07:52 AM.
06-09-2011, 09:33 AM
#40
770-851-7923
Keep in mind he may be on the road or prepping to hit the road for an event. He's really good about getting back with you though.
He does do beam bending. At least he did when I spoke with him last.
BC does make two different coilovers for the 4th gen, BR and RM Series.
BC RACING APPLICATION LIST
Keep in mind he may be on the road or prepping to hit the road for an event. He's really good about getting back with you though.
He does do beam bending. At least he did when I spoke with him last.
BC does make two different coilovers for the 4th gen, BR and RM Series.
BC RACING APPLICATION LIST
Last edited by jac121479; 06-09-2011 at 09:42 AM.