Advanced Suspension, Chassis, and BrakingTalk about suspension geometry, advanced handling/chassis setup, custom brakes, etc. NOT your basic brake pads and "best drop" Information.
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Can you give an estimate or description of how you had them before the install, so I might be able to reduce the time (and cost, unfortunately I probably will be taking to a shop, unless someone knows of a writeup)
it will take to get them to about a 2" drop?
Thanks d00d
Okay guys.... I'm editing this post because I made a BIG MISTAKE figuring out how much I had lowered my car. I had forgotten to take good before-and-after measurements, so I tried to guestimate my drop by comparing how my car looks with pics of 4th gens with Tein S-Techs, which give a 2.2" front and 1.8" rear drop. I thought my car looked similar, so I estimated 2.5" front and 2" rear... which is really wrong. After measuring ground clearances on a stock Max, I can tell you that my drop is actually more like 4" front and 3.5" rear.
For the fronts I had them so that the total distance from the upper spring perch to the bottom was 17 3/8". With as little preload dialed in as I could manage, and after the springs settled, that gave me my 4" drop. I can't quite remember how I did the rears.
The car is definitely slammed. 4" is a huge freakin' drop. It actually looks kinda silly sometimes. If it hadn't turned out to be such a freakin' blast to drive -- believe me, such a low center of gravity is REALLY fun -- I would definitely have raised it by now. If anyone knows for sure of any parts that fail with such a huge drop, PLEASE TELL ME NOW.
Anyway, Spaniard... If you can possibly allocate a weekend to this, don't take your coilovers to a shop. Buy yourself a hydraulic jack, jack stands, torque wrench, breaker bar, appropriate socket sets, and good penetrating lubricant, and do it yourself. It'll take a lot longer, but it'll be worth it. Besides, you should know how to do it in case you need to adjust.
I can talk you through it if you want. Or maybe I or Dave Sz or someone will just post a writeup.... it's really simple.
Okay guys.... I'm editing this post because I made a BIG MISTAKE figuring out how much I had lowered my car. I had forgotten to take good before-and-after measurements, so I tried to guestimate my drop by comparing how my car looks with pics of 4th gens with Tein S-Techs, which give a 2.2" front and 1.8" rear drop. I thought my car looked similar, so I estimated 2.5" front and 2" rear... which is really wrong. After measuring ground clearances on a stock Max, I can tell you that my drop is actually more like 4" front and 3.5" rear.
For the fronts I had them so that the total distance from the upper spring perch to the bottom was 17 3/8". With as little preload dialed in as I could manage, and after the springs settled, that gave me my 4" drop. I can't quite remember how I did the rears.
The car is definitely slammed. 4" is a huge freakin' drop. It actually looks kinda silly sometimes. If it hadn't turned out to be such a freakin' blast to drive -- believe me, such a low center of gravity is REALLY fun -- I would definitely have raised it by now. If anyone knows for sure of any parts that fail with such a huge drop, PLEASE TELL ME NOW.
Anyway, Spaniard... If you can possibly allocate a weekend to this, don't take your coilovers to a shop. Buy yourself a hydraulic jack, jack stands, torque wrench, breaker bar, appropriate socket sets, and good penetrating lubricant, and do it yourself. It'll take a lot longer, but it'll be worth it. Besides, you should know how to do it in case you need to adjust.
I can talk you through it if you want. Or maybe I or Dave Sz or someone will just post a writeup.... it's really simple.
daym d00d, your contributions to this whole subject have been really great, in fact awesome.
I will take your advice and try to do the install myself, yipes! If anyone has a writeup I'd love to know about it. I seem to recall someone saying that there was a writeup that you could use, only using part of it... something like just the shocks part of a shock/spring install.
In any case, I probably will be wondering WTF I am doing without some instructions, and ideally some pictures so if theres any out there, I'd be super grateful. Just so I am not on the boards posting pathetic threads with phrases like "Will paypal for advice"
That's the writeup on installing the Tokico Illumina suspension, which is the thing you can follow to install your coilovers. Just cut out all the parts involving spring compressors and removing the top hats.
To be honest, though, I don't even think you need pics. As long as you're relatively careful about it, it's really really easy.
Here's my writeup:
Tools
Torque wrench
Breaker bar (or a socket wrench with a really long, stiff handle)
Metric socket set(s) (might need two if your socket wrenches take different-sized sockets)
Hydraulic, pneumatic, or scissor jack(s)
Jack stands
Penetrating lubricant (Liquid Wrench is good)
Preparation
Jack the car up, either with a hydraulic or pneumatic jack, or even just some scissor jacks. Then, place jack stands under the appropriate structural points (right around where you placed the jacks is good), lower the car onto the jack stands, and remove the jacks. If you can't jack up the whole car, just jack up either the front or the rear and place chocks or bricks under the wheels that are on the ground, just to be dead sure the car won't roll away.
When you're working on the fronts, it's also a good idea to have your key in the car and in the "On" position so that your steering works and you can turn the spindles if you need to.
Front Install
Take the wheel off.
Support the lower control arm (big triangular-ish thingy at the very bottom) with a scissor jack, hydraulic jack, or something -- anything you can move up and down relatively easily.
Remove the top 3 nuts in the strut tower (14mm), under the hood. These are holding the strut in the strut tower. Do not remove the center nut -- that one holds the spring in place!
Lower the control arm a little to relieve some stress from the spring.
Note that the steering linkage, control arm, wheel hub, and brake assembly are all bolted to the same spidery-lookin' hunk of metal. That's the spindle. The strut is also bolted to the spindle with two large bolts. Remove these (you need a 17mm socket for the bolts and 19mm for the nuts).
Be careful. You don't want the spindle to fall toward you, and you want the strut to come out as effortlessly as possible.
Stick your coilover in and bolt it into the top of the strut tower with those 3 nuts from before and torque them to about 50 lbs-ft. Remember, the camber plate should not be diagonal -- if it is, you have the wrong coilover for that side.
Raise the control arm until the strut bolt holes on the coilover and the spindle line up.
Put those strut bolts and nuts back in and torque them to 110 lbs-ft.
Put the wheel back on.
Rear install
Follow the above instructions, except:
You'll be supporting the rear axle instead of a control arm -- you might want to support it from both sides.
There is only one bottom bolt.
There are only two top bolts, and you have to get at them by removing the carpeting on the walls of the trunk. It's held in by little things that snap in and snap out -- just pry up an edge and start pulling and you'll find them easily. Later, you can cut the carpeting in the appropriate places (to keep the coilovers exposed for shock adjustment) and put it back in if you want.
If any of the nuts or bolts gets stuck, just douse the whole bolt and/or nut with penetrating lubricant, let it sit for a while, and then try again.
Okay guys.... I'm editing this post because I made a BIG MISTAKE figuring out how much I had lowered my car. I had forgotten to take good before-and-after measurements, so I tried to guestimate my drop by comparing how my car looks with pics of 4th gens with Tein S-Techs, which give a 2.2" front and 1.8" rear drop. I thought my car looked similar, so I estimated 2.5" front and 2" rear... which is really wrong. After measuring ground clearances on a stock Max, I can tell you that my drop is actually more like 4" front and 3.5" rear.
For the fronts I had them so that the total distance from the upper spring perch to the bottom was 17 3/8". With as little preload dialed in as I could manage, and after the springs settled, that gave me my 4" drop. I can't quite remember how I did the rears.
The car is definitely slammed. 4" is a huge freakin' drop. It actually looks kinda silly sometimes. If it hadn't turned out to be such a freakin' blast to drive -- believe me, such a low center of gravity is REALLY fun -- I would definitely have raised it by now. If anyone knows for sure of any parts that fail with such a huge drop, PLEASE TELL ME NOW.
Anyway, Spaniard... If you can possibly allocate a weekend to this, don't take your coilovers to a shop. Buy yourself a hydraulic jack, jack stands, torque wrench, breaker bar, appropriate socket sets, and good penetrating lubricant, and do it yourself. It'll take a lot longer, but it'll be worth it. Besides, you should know how to do it in case you need to adjust.
I can talk you through it if you want. Or maybe I or Dave Sz or someone will just post a writeup.... it's really simple.
4" is really slammed and quite possibly too much for anything but show. Measurements will also be affected by using non-stock diam tires. Even with very low CG, and good travel from the struts, you also need to look at the geometry of the control arms. I believe ideal is for the control arm to be horizontal and not angled very high or low. Also going that low affects the camber and toe, and correcting for such affects scrub radius and possibly steering response a bit.
You guys have me a little nervous, I have gc'z/toks (not illuminas) and im leaving them mainly because they are soooo uncomfortable, I already ordered the ksports, and now I read that they are not comfortable, I live in NY, and girls hate to ride in my car the way it is, thats why i dished out the money =\
You guys have me a little nervous, I have gc'z/toks (not illuminas) and im leaving them mainly because they are soooo uncomfortable, I already ordered the ksports, and now I read that they are not comfortable, I live in NY, and girls hate to ride in my car the way it is, thats why i dished out the money =\
a member just sold me his set that he just bought cause they were too stiff....... good luck.
I put mine almost 2 weeks ago.
I have a moderate drop for now, I want to see if the springs settle a little more.
I have:
Front: 1/2 finger gap in the front
Rear: 3/4 on the rear.
I think that should’ve been factory specs.
I have the minimum spring pre-load, so that the springs don’t move around and make noise.
The struts are:
Back : 360 of full stiffness
Front : 540 of full stiffness
1 big problem installing:
I was stupid and broke one of the rear shock studs(way too much torque). A guy from a shop fixed it for me, just got a new bolt in there.
Got an alignment a few days after the drop, and the car rides like a dream, coming from factory 97 I30t suspension.
Very happy overall with the product, quality, fitment and service.
*edit* to the guys saying its too rough, it really isnt, its a nice ride in my opinion, i took off a little preload the other day, and it rides a lot smoother now its not bad at all
__________________
Modifications:Cattman Y-pipe, Motostorm UDP, Blehmco Ground Kit, SS clutchline, Autovation Aluminum Pedals, Otto Racing FSTB, Ksport Coilovers, SRE Short Throw Shifter, 00vi
14.521 on street tires
14.42xon drag radials(will update when i get my slips outa my car)
Okay guys.... I'm editing this post because I made a BIG MISTAKE figuring out how much I had lowered my car. I had forgotten to take good before-and-after measurements, so I tried to guestimate my drop by comparing how my car looks with pics of 4th gens with Tein S-Techs, which give a 2.2" front and 1.8" rear drop. I thought my car looked similar, so I estimated 2.5" front and 2" rear... which is really wrong. After measuring ground clearances on a stock Max, I can tell you that my drop is actually more like 4" front and 3.5" rear.
.
The KSports are only supposed to have a max drop of three inches. the D2's can drop 4", not the KSports.
You are prob darn close to being fully dropped at three inches.
4" is really slammed and quite possibly too much for anything but show. Measurements will also be affected by using non-stock diam tires. Even with very low CG, and good travel from the struts, you also need to look at the geometry of the control arms. I believe ideal is for the control arm to be horizontal and not angled very high or low. Also going that low affects the camber and toe, and correcting for such affects scrub radius and possibly steering response a bit.
I had the car aligned to factory specs, except for -1 degree camber in front. But you're right, I can see how upward-pointing control arms would hurt steering response -- lateral loading would tend to cause the suspension on the outside corner to compress on turn-in, which would definitely dull things a little. In doing so, it'd also press inward on the driveshaft, which would NOT be cool. I know I definitely hear some groaning from the drivetrain in really really tight turns, so it's probably about damn time I raised the car.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rush0
You guys have me a little nervous, I have gc'z/toks (not illuminas) and im leaving them mainly because they are soooo uncomfortable, I already ordered the ksports, and now I read that they are not comfortable, I live in NY, and girls hate to ride in my car the way it is, thats why i dished out the money =\
These coilovers will be MUCH easier on your tailbone than GCs and Toks. It's not even a comparison. GCs are really stiff, and Toks are not even remotely what they need to be to keep that kinda spring under control, especially with significant lowering. Don't worry, you did good buying K-Sports.
Quote:
Originally Posted by upstatemax
The KSports are only supposed to have a max drop of three inches. the D2's can drop 4", not the KSports.
You are prob darn close to being fully dropped at three inches.
You'd think so. But there's actually enough room that I could easily drop my car another 1-2 inches from where it is now. I have no idea where they got the 3" maximum, but it's definitely not accurate.
Maybe it's a 3" maximum drop without endangering your drivetrain. Ahem.
__________________
Modifications:Cattman Y-pipe, Motostorm UDP, Blehmco Ground Kit, SS clutchline, Autovation Aluminum Pedals, Otto Racing FSTB, Ksport Coilovers, SRE Short Throw Shifter, 00vi
14.521 on street tires
14.42xon drag radials(will update when i get my slips outa my car)
thanks for all the great information guys. I just got mine today and this really helps alot. Just a quick question though. Is ride height adjustable with the coilovers on? Cuz just by looking at it it seems like you have to take em off adjust then put them on again. This could be annoying when trying to set the right height. Or am i missing something?
you will have to take the wheels and the bottom bold off, the top bolts can stay in there hanging, and you adjust the bottom.
__________________
Modifications:Cattman Y-pipe, Motostorm UDP, Blehmco Ground Kit, SS clutchline, Autovation Aluminum Pedals, Otto Racing FSTB, Ksport Coilovers, SRE Short Throw Shifter, 00vi
14.521 on street tires
14.42xon drag radials(will update when i get my slips outa my car)
ok just read alot of postings...i have been running my k-sports for about 2months now probably put 7k miles on them thus far and running 19's...no problems at all...the ride is superb at all peeds and with no sway bar..no body roll what so ever...if you want pics take a look at my page...
I should also disclaim all responsibility for those rims.... They came with the car. I don't even know who made them.
But yeah... there it is.
Looks sweeeet .. unfortunately too sweet.
For comparison (what I should be aiming for) I'd like to know your wheel size and tire size please! Thanks!
Also, I was thinking of also getting 1 degree negative camber with factory specs besides that... Does anyone want to agree/disagree with this? (Especially BEJAY1...)
Looking for a nice compromise of performance w/o having to toss 80% good tires (like I do now with 2.2 deg)
Also, I was thinking of also getting 1 degree negative camber with factory specs besides that... Does anyone want to agree/disagree with this? (Especially BEJAY1...)
Looking for a nice compromise of performance w/o having to toss 80% good tires (like I do now with 2.2 deg)
I have the D2 coilovers (very similar the the K-Sport) and have my camber set at .75 degrees. I think 1 degree will be fine and certainly reduce your tire wear.
For comparison (what I should be aiming for) I'd like to know your wheel size and tire size please! Thanks!
Also, I was thinking of also getting 1 degree negative camber with factory specs besides that... Does anyone want to agree/disagree with this? (Especially BEJAY1...)
Looking for a nice compromise of performance w/o having to toss 80% good tires (like I do now with 2.2 deg)
I'm running 205/65/15 tires all around. That's stock overall diameter.
You probably wouldn't want it as low as I have it, though, simply because you want the control arms to be pointing straight out when the car is at rest. Having the control arms at an upward angle would cause the outside wheel's suspension to tend to compress on turn-in, which would disturb the dynamics a little. Having them straight outward or perhaps slightly down-angled will keep your turn-in crisp and keep body roll to a minimum.
As for the camber question: stiffening your suspension and lowering your center of gravity, especially in combination with your sway bar, will make sure you're able to use all four tires more effectively, instead of that narsty two- or three-wheel action in all your pics. IMO, you should easily be able to use less negative camber and still see an improvement in your track times.
Cool- sounds good. I'll dial in 1 degree I think....
And Im wondering, is level control arm OK or should I try to have a bit of downward?
Actually I probably should have a bit of downward Control Arm action because what with the LTB-2, clearance is a bit scarce. Either that or lower it as much as advisable and get some silly non-track tires in like 225/75/15
Oh, also, interestingly - factory spec for the SE is a 215/60/15 tire. (a little lower to the ground and sporty! compared to GXE and GLE)
It'd be nice to find out that I am a bit under on the speedo but I suppose they compensate for the smaller tire size so its doubtful..
Whoever said the Ksports/D2s were made in the same factory as the JICs was on the money. IMO, these feel just like the JICs when they were new, maybe a tad less bounce, but overall the dampening is just like the JICs. I finally have them on full stiff and drove on the highway with em. I didnt really notice any performance difference compared to the JICs. But still felt nothing like an '04 EVO I drove equipped with Tein Basics. That setup on that car is perfect - just the right stiffness and dampening (almost no bounce) - not to mention that car has near perfect turn in - made the max feel like a minivan. The closest I came to this feeling was when I had my Cattman Gen IIs NEW. I need to feel a max with Tein basics - I doubt it will feel anything like the EVO but just curious.
Brake line brackets - I just put the spindle mount screw through them and bend them into a somewhat L shape but sitting flush with the outside of the shock body.
yah i ended up bending mine a little. i wish they had it built into the coilover like the OEMs. For some reason i was seriously baffled on the best way to put the brackets on and wasted like an hour. Put the fronts on today... took 4 hours (worked by myself). Will finish up tomorrow. One tip i'd give people is that the drop is ALOT lower than you would expect. I set my lower perch about an inch below the bottom of the tube and it still looks a little too low. At first I had mine flush with the bottom and the tire wouldnt go on.
d00df00d, lower it more man, u got room to go! specially in the back !!
Heh.... wouldn't that be something.
Actually, I kinda want a BlehmCo Stage 2 Lower Tie Bar in the future, so I'll be raising it pretty soon when I install the set of helper springs I bought:
finally got them installed. looks like the back needs to be dropped a tad more. Sorry for the crappy pic but its 3am and i just finished and the lighting in the garage sux.
By the way, guys, for those of you who want to get really serious about tuning your suspension, there is a good article in this month's issue of Sport Compact Car about suspension tuning that explores the basics inside and out. Highly recommended reading.
took it for a test drive and WEEEEEEEEEEEE. Went on some mountain rodes and the thing turns like mad on about 3/5's stiff. Still pretty comfortable altho I have to be careful about driving too fast over bumps. I do however get some tired rub I thnk when I turn all the way right. They are only 17x7 rims with 45 offset so I am not sure why I am getting rub. Hopefully an alignment fixes the problem. I also get some clicking noises when turning slowly to get out of my parking garage. Is this normal? do they just need to be broken in?
got an alignment done and it hasnt helped with the noises. clicking noises seem to be getting worse. Any ideas? I dont think its the spring perch cuz I actually have some preload on there. Im pretty sure all the bolts are on tight too. Anyone have noises like this that they were able to resolve?
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