noahrexion

Sooo, I should disconnect battery for 24 hours? I have not done that yet, it has been disconnected for a few at most.

TunerMaxima3000

iTrader: (4)

Great video.

Generic locksmith I'd never trust for this. Even though it's been good for x days/months doesn't mean the programming is 100%

Coupled with Ebay keys makes me even more sceptical.

I just don't personally trust generic crap for some of that stuff, but I also don't know a ton about chip keys, so maybe it doesn't matter.

Anyways, have you tried getting a boost? It seems silly because the car cranks, but I don't like that the RPM is hardly reading during cranking on your gauges. Boost the car and see if anything changes. Nice free test, won't hurt.

As far as dealer programming, I'd hate to send you to do that due to the cost, I'd 100% be confident if you had a solid security light, or if clearing the codes let the car start.

Maybe wait it out with battery disconnected for 24-48 hours if you can spare the time

andrewmac

iTrader: (2)

How could the car have died mid-drive if NATS was the culprit? And then why would the car start and die again, and then stay dead on the 3rd try? It just doesn't seem like NATS to me.

Max_5gen

iTrader: (2)

OK, if FSM says so then there's no EEPROM in ECU either, it seems it 'remembers' everything just in RAM and holds it until some internal capacitor discharges. Any battery would hold it for months and I didn't see any inside.

I just looked at NATS diagram and got an idea that if that module is faulty it could behave like this. Let's say you remove it completely from the car - it won't lit up security light but it won't enable ECU either.

Max_5gen

iTrader: (2)

Pressing brakes while battery is disconnected should discharge whatever is left through brake lights. You can leave it for 24 hrs after that to make sure.

Page EL-338 has description of getting out of lock mode- you can try that with stock key.

TunerMaxima3000

iTrader: (4)

Really? that's super strange!

I want to be clear, I'm running with a first impression on this NATS thing, dont' assume I know that's the answer to this problem, it's just the most OBVIOUS potential issue I can see, especially considering the recent key purchase.

It's quite possible that the issue is something else, but you should be eliminating the most likely causes first.
The FSM, while an invaluable tool, can also easily send you on wild goose hunts and confuse the ever living crap out of you. When you don't know what you're looking for, there's just too much info to go digging without direction.

TunerMaxima3000

iTrader: (4)

I missed this 'middle' issue? I did just skim through the thread so thank you if this is the case.

So the car dies on the highway, could be NATS, no question.

The start and then die off part I need more info on this, when did this happen, how long did it run, did it sputter and die or just die, etc.

Max_5gen

iTrader: (2)

Not really - the same light is 'shared' between SECU and IMMU. If my understanding is correct SECU is responsible for slow blinking while IMMU lights it up when it doesn't recognize the key in ON position. If IMMU is not working at all it won't do that but ECU will also stay disabled.

noahrexion

Max can you elaborate a bit on the bypassing deal? I didn't follow and I read through most all of that section and do not understand how to proceed without a consult II

I tried the lock mode release a few times to no avail. Thanks


Oh and I pulled plugs again just to verify spark, yes indeed still strong and present. But, the plugs are fuel soaked still. With all these start attempts and such there must be a little fuel simply leaking past the injectors even though they're closed. I dont know how else I'd have such soaked plugs. Does this make any sense>

Max_5gen

iTrader: (2)

There's no bypassing I 'm aware of. All I was saying is while unlikely you could have faulty IMMU module. I was asking to check if power is present on its pin #8 (always) and pin #7 (in ON position) and while you there - voltage on pin #1. Pin #1 is the wire going to ECU and IIRC it has to be at 12V most of the time. During communication between IMMU and ECU there will be pulses present on that wire which might be noticeable with multimeter as decrease in voltage. This communication happens when you insert a key and lasts few seconds and then it remains at 12 V. This is from some of my 'experiments' almost decade ago.

I can't imagine fuel leaking past injectors. If we take your observation then it would mean injectors gets open and then I don't see why it wouldn't start. Do you happen to have mechanic's stethoscope which you could use to listen for injector's clicking and confirm your observation? It's hard to do when engine is cranking and you would need someone to help with cranking.

As we're running out of ideas, one more question - did you try to open throttle while cranking? I remember it died while driving but still.

Max_5gen

iTrader: (2)

Speaking of ideas - you could try to disconnect MAF and IACV and do some cranking. They are not vital for the engine start but they should set DTC codes in ECU which you could read/erase. This would allow you to see if you can communicate with ECU. So far this was an assumption - strong, but still assumption.

noahrexion

I do have a steth, but cranking and listening to that is near impossible.

Yes, definitely tried tons of diff throttle positions.

I'm waiting to make appt at Nissan dealer - this pains me GREATLY. I have NEVER had to take a vehicle in to anyone for work since I was 15 years old (15 years ago!)

noahrexion

Those were the first things I tried! Although the IACV disconnect doesn't set a code during cranking (only the MAF does) And yes, I can communicate, erase and delete diagnostic info/freeze frame from ECU.

TunerMaxima3000

iTrader: (4)

Good idea, sounds like he has that checked though, worth a shot.

Anyways, I recomend you check your CKPS for proper output signal during cranking.

If that's good, disconnect battery and let the bish sit for 24-48 hours. Then report back

andrewmac

iTrader: (2)

Shot in the dark: is the fuel good? Is it possible the fuel was contaminated in some way? If you can confirm the injectors are firing then there is no reason for it not to run except the fuel. Especially since starting fluid worked.

TunerMaxima3000

iTrader: (4)

It would at least chug and sputter and try to start with bad fuel. It's doing literally NOTHING.

------------------------


CKPS






EDIT: Sorry forgot ECM pinout:

noahrexion

I actually believe I am getting fuel now. I put my steth to the injectors and they do sound like they're firing (during cranking of course). My plugs are wet when pulled and I don't understand how that would happen unless they are firing.

WTF would cause this NO start? Do the NATS or CKPS interrupt injector signals 80% of the time or something? I just cannot understand why I have fuel, spark, sensors are good and we aint got no life in this punk yet.

I might shoot more starting fluid in and spray a little to keep it running for a minute or so and see if I can't get a code to generate. If that doesn't work I am going to pull an injector and spray it in a bucket to verify.

Andrew - no idea how to tell if I have bad fuel, but, it wouldn't just stall like that, especially half way through the tank (literally).

Max_5gen

iTrader: (2)

I guess, the thread became too long and shifted out of my window of attention, sorry.

Speaking logically this would mean that from the ECU point of view everything is normal otherwise it would set a code if it was blocking injectors to prevent engine damage or because some sensor's signal was out of range.

The only thing which can do that is NATS but the sequence of events contradicts it.

One more possibility is low fuel pressure which would prevent injectors from providing enough fuel even if they're not blocked by ECU. This would explain fuel on the plugs and everything else but IMO engine would at least try to start from time to time. You also hear fuel pump turning off meaning it reached the required pressure somehow. Direct test would to measure the pressure but this would require fuel pressure gauge.

I don't have more ideas, sorry.

noahrexion

TunerMax - I verified all of that already. The one thing that the steps mention is to ensure it is "installed" correctly. Unless I am missing something, there is only one way it can go in. have also switched back and forth between the OEM and dualast sensors (both of which tested good), just to make sure!

andrewmac

iTrader: (2)

Pull the injector a test it. The only reason I suggested fuel is because there is nothing else I can think of. If the injector fires and there's a spark you will get combustion whether the ecu likes it or not. I just watched the video again and I don't hear anything but the starter cranking it. Either the injectors aren't firing or the fuel is bad.

Max_5gen

iTrader: (2)

I think, we can ditch NATS theory for now even though it wasn't bad. I was always under impression it would block spark or everything and not the fuel alone. Doing it at 80% is too complicated IMO.

You already verified CKPS signal levels at ECU, ECU doesn't set its error code so I'd close that path as well.

You verified Camshaft sensor and REF resistance and probably tried to substitute each with replacement. I'm bringing this up only because my own Maxima 2k died on me just like yours because of the Camshaft Position Sensor. It even recovered back after car cooled down so I didn't think much and simply replaced it next day. I can't even recall if it threw the code, probably it did.

Max_5gen

iTrader: (2)

Yep, the most reasonable route at the moment.

Max_5gen

iTrader: (2)

How long you were driving on that particular tank before it happened? Hours, days? Did you fill up at your usual pump? You mentioned you were coming from vacation...

I very vaguely recall story which happened more than 10 yrs ago in Toronto when some guys running gas station bough some chemical which was cheaper than gasoline and put it into station's tanks to make some extra money. It ended up badly as customers started to complain about fuel supply problems at masse and guys were caught. I recall customers had to replace fuel pumps and what not after single fill up.

noahrexion

I don't think I am going to pull an injector - I just took a look earlier and thought the two front 12mm rail bolts would allow enough wiggle room to slip one out; not really the case.

It looks like the manifold (upper) has to come off to do it. I cleaned a few plugs off, put them back in, cranked a bunch, pulled them and they were dry this time. I also, for whatever it is worth, had my wife crank while I watched my multimeter's battery signal on my injectors remain CONSTANT (no ground out, no opening). Its a pretty sensitive meter (not an oscilloscope though); due to this last ditch effort don't feel like pulling the manifold at this time.

I made sure that these were the SAME plugs that I pulled before that WERE wet. So unless I killed 2 injectors by cranking, then whatever fuel was on them before was either starting fluid, residual or something else that is beyond my simple mind.

I left a message at the stealership waiting to get an appt. I have no idea what else to do. I do not believe that the FPR is the culprit (I don't have a FP tester) as even low pressure, even complete flow through without any regulation, would INDEED give me at least a stumble here and there.

I can only believe that it is something security related, you dudes agree? I don't want to feel like I'm giving up, I want to feel like I've tried everything I can before I have to pay hundreds to the dealer to tell me what is wrong.

EDIT: Max, I did indeed fill up at our normal station (Shell premium). We drove from Portland down to the coast/camping area and back (about 200-220 miles) where upon entering Portland again (thankfully didn't happen far away) the car suddenly gave out. My attempts at a restart afterwards were just a stumble or two, no real consistent combustion that I would even call a restart. The good hearted tooth-less tow truck driver wanted to start pulling **** apart in my engine bay to figure it out I told him I wanted it in my driveway to do it myself; maybe I should have let him

Max_5gen

iTrader: (2)

If you can hear injectors clicking (they're quite loud actually) then it's something with fuel.

If you can't hear them through all the noise then it is most likely NATS. If you want to try everything - check voltages on IMMU module as per my post #50. If IMMU doesn't get power you most likely would be having your symptoms.

AFAIK, IMMU is a 'dumb' device and it can be replaced without reprogramming keys, etc. It is located behind key hole on the steering column. You can even disconnect it to see if it sets relevant ECU code. This would confirm ECU can actually communicate with it.

TunerMaxima3000

iTrader: (4)

IF this is true (I'm thinking it isn't, but I"m not there.), then the only thing really that wills top the car from even TRYING to start is low cranking RPM.

Did you try and jump this? I know it SOUNDS silly, but just do it, humour me.

You did, you're right, I slacked on that post reading

Don't worrya bout the install part if it's working/passing tests. Unless it looks crooked or like something's jammed in it it'll be fine.

This, they're loud enough that you'd know if they were working. Which brings me back to the top of htis post where I said you're likely not getting fuel, just think you are for whatever reason.

EDIT: Man this thread is moving quick and I didn't refresh. just read about plugs being dry, confirms what I though.

TunerMaxima3000

iTrader: (4)

Again, next steps:

Try to boost the car, if it doesn't start, crank it to see if cranking for 10 seconds straight gives you a code. 10 seconds is a LONG TIME to crank a car, count it out, you'll want to stop almost by reflex, keep going for 10 whole seconds.

If you can, videotape this 10 second run also

noahrexion

I unfortunately don't have any more time to keep fiddling; we either buy a new car (which we're currently looking for since I sold my Tundra) or fix this asap (tomorrow).

Yes it did move fast, I just kept at it. The plugs are dry, the injectors are clicking and the second half of the time I had the car hooked up to a jumper car every time I cranked as I didn't want to drain my battery. I kept it running for about 30 seconds with starting fluid just to see if any codes would come up with no luck.

I'm gonna have it towed into dealer tomorrow if I don't have an epiphany tomorrow morning so that they can get on it Monday morning. I sincerely appreciate you guys reading through all this BS.

I am actually hoping that it is something that I didn't get to so that any bit of confidence I did have as a wrench doesn't whither away as I receive the repair bill from the stealership. I've always kept my cars 90's and older as that is what I learned on and know how to work on - the whole plugging into a computer is beyond my garage and scope. For fear of catching myself with my words, I will wait to see what happens and be sure to report back so that any of you poor souls reading all this will have an answer to the puzzle.

Again thanks for your help fellas.

TunerMaxima3000

iTrader: (4)

Shytty end to it, but hopefully it's something simple like the IMMU failed or whatever

Max_5gen

iTrader: (2)

Honestly, I don't see what else you can do - we came to dead end- injectors are clicking, fuel is in the rail, spark is present and you can give it any amount of air. Why on Earth it doesn't fire is beyond me. Digging any further requires special equipment IMO.

I really don't envy dealership tech.

Good luck and keep us posted if you'd have a chance.

noahrexion

Day three of dealership(s) possession and they do not yet know what is wrong.
Yesterday they replaced the fuel pump - told me it was bad intermittently (which I could partially buy). I paid, went out to car to get it - started it it ran for about 45 seconds and then died. No start, back to square 1.

They gave me a new Altima to drive until they figure this out. Will post back results. Ugh.

foodmanry

iTrader: (15)

Odd...subscribed for future updates. I am really interested to here root cause and resolution. Hopefully you get it resolved sooner, rather than later.

andrewmac

iTrader: (2)

Same. I was actually thinking about it this morning. I'm dying to know what it ends up being. Keep us posted.

Max_5gen

iTrader: (2)

Well, as you can see the 'experts' don't perform much better than you with all their diagnostic equipment and parts access. Hope, they'll be able to figure this out as they already managed to get it running for 45 seconds.

TunerMaxima3000

iTrader: (4)

I'm not reading back, did this thing get a new genuine OEM FPR?

Nice of them to give you a loaner, that's rare.

Bassbreaker

iTrader: (8)

sub, I want to know the outcome of this as well

noahrexion

Okay boys and girls, turned out to be the simplest of things, isn't it always.

I admittedly have not been inside the fuel pump on these cars yet, so I have to assume that they aren't yanking my chain with this.

However, they comped the repair, comped the loaner and all so I'm not sweating it. The service writer (couldn't talk with tech) told me it was as simple as a failing clamp in the pump assembly. She said that this is a part that is not normally serviceable and that never gets replaced, yet mine had gone bad?

This in turn, this is what I am not sure of, was giving me random readings (pressure) from my fuel pump. Now I looked in a diagram and all I was able to see were the feed/return lines held onto the top of the assembly via some type of push/pull (no clamp?) looking connection. I tried to pry a little further and she didn't know and the tech was unavailable.

In any case it didn't cost anything so I'm not complaining. This just seems a little fishy to me; they were overly nice, vague and gave me a free loaner. I guess my first experience bringing my car to someone to fix didn't turn out so bad, I just feel as if I don't have all this info, I guess that is how it goes when you don't do your own work.

Again, thanks for ya'alls help (you know who you are) in helping me along. In hindsight, I suppose has I rented a fuel pressure gauge and left it hooked up and continued to look at it, that I would have eventually seen low/false readings that would have led me to the fuel pump. Perhaps I would have found the magic clamp!

DennisMik

iTrader: (2)

While I never contributed to this thread, I have been following it. At least the car is finally running after all your grief and misery. However I'd like to say that I do not believe the story from the dealer about the clamp.

When dealers screw up and you have to take the car back and truly repair it, they won't tell you that they screwed up. If they say they screwed up, you can sue them. Lying to cover their butts is standard business practice. Had a somewhat similiar situation once and I did talk to a laywer about it.

Bassbreaker

iTrader: (8)

I dont see how they "screwed up" somehow. Dont be paranoid. They fixed your car for free. Your headaches are gone. I would say they are happy to find the problem being so easy as even they had trouble locating it. Congrats on NOT having to buy a new one :P

foodmanry

iTrader: (15)

Wait...why would they pay for everything? Was your Maxima under warranty?

This is EXTREMELY rare...and it makes it sound super fishy.

Those clamps they are talking about are the fuel lines at the top of the assembly and if it is "loose" or leaking you would likely have smelled gas in the back of your car. Also, there is a lot of pressure so a "loose" clamp would have just popped off.