ghostrider17

iTrader: (6)

SO, I just got a speeding ticket this morning.

To make a long story short: I was behind another vehicle that got RADARED in a speed trap.
The cop pursued the vehicle in front of me, and had her pulled-over 1/4 mi up the road at a stop sign.
As I approached, she signaled for ME to pull-over as well.

She approached my vehicle and asked me why I was doing 50 in a 35 mph zone.....to which I replied, "would it MATTER"??

Her answer was simply, "No."
And she asked for my license and reg.

So, here's the thing: my radar detector never went-off. YES, I have LIDAR as well, in addition to POP, Ka, and everything ELSE the local cops have.

When she returned to collect my license, i asked her if she clocked me on Radar - to which, she replied: YES - my radar can track TWO vehicles at once.

I thought this strange - as I've never heard of THIS technology before...and I know just enuff to be irritating to cops.

So, after she takes her sweet time writing the ticket - she comes-back and tells me that I was doing 50 and the driver ahead of me was doing 53.

I asked her to SHOW me the Radar reading....and she begins to back-peddle.
She now says that her unit DOES NOT have my speed registered, but that if I went to court, they could prove I was speeding given my proximity to the vehicle AHEAD of me using the in-car video, and TIMING.

So, FOR SURE, I am going to court to fight this -- but what do you guys think?!?!?
Can they (or WILL they) actually use "timing" via a video feed from the dash-cam to ascertain my alleged speeding, based on my distance from the vehicle in front of me?!

Is this PERMISSABLE in court?!

Does this basically boil-down to the Judge's discretion?!?!

Yes - I MAY have been speeding -- I don't know.
The point is -- they don't know FOR SURE either....and can they PROVE it?!

I am CERTAIN that the cop did NOT have LiDar - it WAS indeed Radar of some kind.

lemme hear it -- and please, make it constructive -- I don't want to hear any teenage "hell yeah - SCREW the COPS" responses.
That's not what this is about.

gr

Rochester

iTrader: (3)

Show up for the appearance, and the court attorney will negotiate the ticket down to a lesser offense when you describe the situation. Or man-up and accept the punishment for speeding... if you were actually speeding.

But if you really don't know how fast you were going, then contest it. Or contest it anyway... your values, not mine.

Either way, it's a total PITA for a lame 15 mph violation.

BTW, this thread belongs elsewhere.

ghostrider17

iTrader: (6)

WhoopS!
My bad -- I wasn't thinking about that.

I'm sure Nmex will be along shortly to SMITE me.

gr

**that FacePalm was JUST for you JC!**

phatboislim

iTrader: (27)

i had a situation like that..my situation was to the effect of people slamming on brakes and me quickly switching lanes...mind you i had my cruise control on and was doing about 64 (55mph), so i hit brakes just to take off my cruise control and was down to about 60 by the time i ran up on the cop...take this into mind as well, i got behind another car, not just an empty lane. so the cop came out and got behind the car i swing from around, followed them for about an 1/8th mile, then got behind me and pulled me over. said that they clocked me at 70 in the 55, i'm like seriously? i slammed on brakes because someone else slammed on brakes and i swerved to avoid rear ending them, still gave me the ticket and points. i told my uncle about teh whole situation, he talked to the judge and everything was dropped...

so it maybe worth fighting IMO, i would. i mean if i'm caught speeding and i know i was doing close to what they said, i would accept it and not fight it, but if its bogus like mine and yours, i'd fight it.

slag

If you don't know how fast you were going, isn't that inattentive driving?

TallTom

As bogus as the stop was, you have an uphill battle to fight the ticket since the video will show that you were driving close to the speed of the 53mph car.

If you have the time, go to court to plea bargain the ticket. They will drop the points and lessen the fine.

Or, if you're a gambling man, you can contest the ticket but it's the cop's words vs yours. I personally would try it but you may have better luck.

nismopc

iTrader: (3)

Check your states laws regarding speeding and radar. Ohio passed a new law that covers this exact situation...

NmexMAX

iTrader: (22)

Does it really matter much? Go to court and you'll be judged by the judge. Either way, just ask them to leave it off your record, go feed old people, cut some weeds, teach teenagers how to not do drugs, and pay the court fees ...

Mistertones

I think if she doesn't have proof of how fast you were going she can't do anything. Go to court and they'll drop it. Just plead you weren't aware of the speed limit around you and you were following traffic. Worked for me.

VQP0WER

So, are you saying you were not speeding? Or are you going to waste tax payers money and take it to court? Cops DO NOT have to show you the radar indictating your speed, period. The proof she had was on the radar she got you with.

Playing the ignorant person like 'Misterones' says is not an excuse.

2damax

20 bucks says there is no in-car video. Go to court and I say you likely win. Or just settle for a lesser fee. Or make some other kind of deal. Really your call sir.

Edit: Don't play ignorant. Thats not a valid excuse and you look dumb...and ignorant.

VQP0WER

In car video? WTF? You aparently have not been driving long or ever been to a traffic court.

2damax

VQPOWER.. I have been on several ride-alongs with officers as I have been in the hiring process for a little over a year now. I have been to court several times to say the least. Cops will lie to you. Not a big deal. Highly doubt they will bring the video to court. I could be wrong. Maybe that cop really hates him. I still say the video is just a waste of the officer's time and will not be seen.

Good Luck OP

NmexMAX

iTrader: (22)

Whens your court date so i can after ...

Being as this is the most active thread today, and everyone knows the judicial system better than everyone else..

Deckdout2

iTrader: (151)

The thing about officers and radar guns. In order for an officer to be certified to carry and use a radar gun, they go through various vigorous skills testing and must pass all of them. One of the test included is to be able to judge various vehicle speeds by sight only and the error margin is only within a few miles (3-5mph). Most states will uphold this in court as one of the reasons someone is found guilty. It is admissible, however your chances of fighting it are a little bit better then average compared to the officer having a clocked radar speed to show the judge. Your case can be used in the officers favor if you were following closely for a certain distance.

Also, most speed traps can also use distance and time. They pick a point A and point B, and measure the time it takes you to cross both points. If you pass those points too quickly then you are going above their calculated speed between the points. That's another situation where you could be ticketed without the use of a radar.

These types of tickets (radar or radar-less) occur everyday. Your best bet is to fight it if you feel you've got a chance. Might be worth it to hire an attorney for a nominal fee to increase your chances if you don't feel like you'd win on your own.

Good Luck to you!

luvlexus101

iTrader: (6)

This is nothing, I have a hearing tomorrow morning for supposedly doing 75 in a 30 within NYC. Just pay the ticket and cut your losses/time.

Rochester

iTrader: (3)

I had a 90 in a 30 once, like 25 years ago. I pleaded not guilty (Ha!), copped out to a lesser charge, paid the fine and went my merry way. If that happened today, I'd probably get arrested. Traffic law in NY was much less serious than it is today...

...and I am so-o-o not the same guy anymore. Somewhere along the line, I became the grumpy old man who honks at you because you're not paying attention to the road.

anomaly117

iTrader: (3)

exactly what i was gonna say. this happened to me, and this technique does hold up in court. i just paid the ticket.

luvlexus101

iTrader: (6)

Yep, I'm trying to build my case based on curvature of the road, the cops viewpoint, basically trying to prove that at 75 mph he wouldn't even have an opportunity to have locked onto me but we'll see what happens. Basically I worked it out that he can only see 300' down the road, at 75 mph I'd fly past there in less than 3 seconds but who knows.

Mistertones

How is that ignorant? He's asking for advice and I am giving it to him. Relax. Don't call me "ignorant". I don't know you and you don't know me. Learn how to spell as well, it's Mistertones.

Rydicule

Specific laws will be different by state, but I will try to keep this as generic as possible so as to not make false statements. This is by no means legal advice, simply what I've learned through experience and some education.



This practice is not unusual in traffic law enforcement.

Not trying to criticize, however, I would point out that when getting pulled over, the biggest factor as to whether you get a ticket or a warning is attitude.


There can be a number of reasons for this. Radar detectors are great tools to help you avoid speeding traps when possible. However, they are not a get-out-of-tickets-free card. There are a number of videos, as well as LEO statements, forum posts, and actual demonstration in which experienced officers are able to get a radar shot off without it being detected by even top brand radar dectectors. In fact, top brand radar detectors are not great because of their sensitivity, but rather, their lack there of. An Escort or a Valentine will require a certain threshold of continuous radar waves before sounding an alarm so as to decrease the number of false positives. A radar detector that goes off every 3 seconds is no more useful at sparing you tickets than a bobblehead on the dash .

Another note on this, an expert in radar technology and waves may be able to argue that short-burst radar signals are less accurate than a constant flow, however, your word for it won't carry any weight and an expert would charge you more to testify on your behalf than the ticket would cost.


Given the way radar is used to estimate speed, this simply isn't possible. There is actually no way for any radar-based speed detection unit to determine what object the waves are reflecting off of. Generic radar detection units display the traveling speed of the object that is best reflecting the waves. I do suppose it is possible for a unit to differentiate recieved signals using algorithms that would determine two different signals could not possibly be coming from the same object, however, it would still be up to the officer to determine for themselves which two objects were responsible for reflecting the waves. This is a useful argument if there were more than two cars on the road at the time.


As far as I am aware, in the laws of the multiple states I've read, I've never found an obligation on the officer's part to produce or a show a radar reading to the driver. In fact, seeing as how it would be impossible to show the reading at court, not even the judge is required to see the reading. By this logic, if the judge is willing to take the officer's word for it, you should too. At the end of the day, the judge's opinion is the final word. This isn't to say cops don't ever show the reading to the driver, but the only reason I can see that they would do this is to document any of your reactions to the reading in order to make a stronger case against you in court.


Generally, yes, they can. In jury trials, the burden on the state is to prove beyond a reasonable doubt to a jury of your peers that you are guilty.

In a traffic court hearing, the burden on the state is to prove to a judge that you (the 7th on his docket insisting that the cops were wrong and are out to get you) are just among the other 99% of people he sees trying to get out of getting caught.

The issue, as you can see, is even if YOU don't think video and timing are scientific enough to prove you're guilt... if it's enough to give the impression to a judge, that has seen more of these videos than you can even find online, that you were speeding... it's proof enough.

Yes.

Maybe. The point is, they will certainly admit it, and unless you are prepared to object to the admission of said evidence based upon an interpretation of the written statute forbidding said evidence, backed by a precedential case law that you have thoroughly researched and have a convincing argument to show how said precedential case is analogous to this instance...

they will allow it.

In traffic court? It always does. Generally speaking though, most Judges/Justices are very well rehearsed on the statutes, and will be far better than you at ascertaining what admissions and/or procedures are allowed by law.


Can they produce the smoking gun? The striking hammer? The undisputable evidence that it was Colonel Mustard in the billiard room with the candlestick? Probably not.

However, the bottom line? They don't have to. They really don't have to PROVE anything, honestly. All they have to do is convince an experienced, well-rehearsed judge that has seen cases like yours, worse than yours, and less substantial than yours that you were travelling too fast for conditions.

(A side note on this: The intent of the officer/state is NOT to prove exactly how fast you were travelling. If you've bothered to look up the the title, article, and section of the law you are accused of violating, that should be written on the ticket, you probably would find that said law has nothing to do with the speed limit. Most likely, it will talk about you travelling at a rate of speed greater than what is reasonable. It may mention that travelling above the posted limit is prima facie evidence in determining reasonability, however, it will not define "Travelling too fast for conditions" as driving above the speed limit. However, many times states will have a maximum speed at which you may travel on any roadway.)




Mostly irrelevant.




Lastly, I'd like to give you a few suggestions at how to handle your situation.


First, if you were speeding:

Man up. Pay the ticket and be done with it. The cost of the ticket is the tax we pay to drive how we want to.


If you weren't speeding, or if you were speeding but you're like me and think that insurance companies make unfair risk assessments based on sources as unreliable as speeding tickets in order to determine your premium rate:

Fight the ticket. Send it in not guilty.


Secondly, if you fight the ticket:

If you plan on fighting the legality of the ticket, hire a lawyer. Do NOT go to court and plan on questioning the validity of the citation based on the officer's behaviors or responses, your radar detector, or their speed detection device, nor should you make any argument whatsoever that the officer should not have written you that ticket. ANY OF THESE THINGS should be handled by a lawyer, as any regular person will probably do themselves more harm than good trying to make any of these cases themselves.


If you're going to fight the ticket without a lawyer:
I would go to court and be apologetic. I would insist that I had not intended to break the law, and have since the incident been more attentive to my speed and the signs around me, as to avoid any further occurance of this incident.

I do believe this will make the judge and/or prosecutor more comfortable with lesser punishment, fines, etc., if any at all.



I hope this is helpful.

NmexMAX

iTrader: (22)

The OT Justice Master.

anomaly117

iTrader: (3)

J-Rod

iTrader: (1)

Not Bogus, you admitted you were speeding.

Just saying

prodigy401

doesnt hurt to try and fight it.

Leo_Koneval

iTrader: (4)

You know... if you really WERE speeding just say so. There is no need to play around with words to make it seem like you were NOT speeding. It really annoys me when people put all this brain power into making excuses.

But yes, if you show up at court chances are the cop won't show up because she is too busy or there won't be evidence to show you are guilty. But either way, if you end up having to pay a fine ask to do community service instead or taking driving safety classes.

J-Rod

iTrader: (1)

@ Rydicule -- WOW, well said. Best advice and answer to a question I have seen in a loooooooong time.

NmexMAX

iTrader: (22)

He's a frekin bad **** in the subject, you should see him in OT ... I know who to ask whenever I have such questions.

njmaxseltd

iTrader: (19)

Your first and huge mistake

Yes

Your an idiot. You blew it with your first response to her.

There's a little word that goes a long way, RESPECT.

Rochester

iTrader: (3)

As I look back at Ghostrider's little story, this quote here seems to be the real problem. The correct answer was, "I don't believe I was, officer. But that other car was driving way too fast to be safe!"

Police are rarely impressed with wise cracking sarcasm. However, they will readily agree with you when you suggest someone else is driving in a less than safe manner.

njmaxseltd

iTrader: (19)

DING DING DING - We have a winner!

SiathLinux

You may be able to 'plea' this down to a 'lesser' charge where ever "CornLand" is..

Don't try it in Florida - a) the cops tickets here are printed by the computer - the computer has the radar output listed ON the ticket when printed. (and FYI that fancy detector you have is nice but won't work down here either).

On fighting / plea for your case - find out if the court requires a 'bond' - this can be up to $500 out of pocket (a lawyer would cover this, since it's refunded when you appear in court)...

Do your research on YOUR local laws.

Z-Powered

It looks like the cop got you pretty good... Even if you weren't doing exactly 53 MPH, any speed high enough to keep up with the car ahead of you that was clocked at 53 MPH is quite a bit higher than the 35 MPH speed limit. If you enjoy a good debate/argument, I'd say try to fight the ticket in court.

I wish I was in your position though. Yesterday as I was leaving my school campus, I made a right turn onto a busy street that was directly in front of the school. My muffler separated from my B pipe a few weeks ago, and my new cat back has yet to come in the mail, so my car is on the loud side. Anyway, right after I made the right turn, two of the school cops jump in front of my car which forces me to slam on the brakes. They both come to my window and begin yelling expletives at me, and claim I'm doing at least 50 MPH. I politely tell the cop that my muffler is broken and a new one is in the mail already. Then, I ask to see the speed he clocked me going. He then says that he doesn't need a radar gun to tell how fast I'm going. He goes on to say that he can determine the speed at which my vehicle is traveling based on the pitch of my exhaust.

I know it was impossible for me to be going 50 MPH because I was in 1st gear, (4AT) and redline in 1st gear is only 40 MPH. Long story short, the cop tried to get my license suspended. I have a lawyer in the family, so I got him to talk to the cop and explain the mechanical limitations of my vehicle to him. (50 MPH + 1st gear = impossible) The cop backed off thankfully, but that never should have happened in the first place.

prodigy401

yea, some cops are ********, i got a ticket for going 5 mph over the speed limit, on a hill, my foot wasnt even on the gas, but i also got pulled over doing 110 mph, and got a warning its all om how you talk to the cop.

Child_uv_KoRn

iTrader: (7)

If they think you're stupid they'll lie to you and give you a ticket. You have to judge if they're lenient or not. If they're easy going then you can play stupid and get off with a warning (works all the time). If they're ****s I'd tell them nice try, but you have no proof.

I've had them lie to face about running red lights, that I was speeding on radar while they were outside of their car writing someone else a ticket (radar was on the floor), etc. 75% are complete ******** and need to be put down. I'd fight it in court and get the video. It'll show them with their fingers up their asses randomly pulling ppl over with no proof.

Rydicule

While I'm no expert in Florida, the requirement of bond on a violation seems a little out there... most places only require bond for misdemeanor or worse. Even then, bond as low as $500 is, in every case I've seen, a non-surety bond.

I know I've seen on TV an officer has pulled someone over and is trying to get them to sign a piece of paper, threatening to take them to jail if they don't sign it. Unfortunately, this practice is a pretty difficult one... people are still angry/emotional about being pulled over and believe that signing the paper is like signing a confession that voids their right to later fighter the violation. That piece of paper is actually a promise to appear in court, as some states (CT included) have laws that are NOT citations, but rather court appearances (i.e. In CT if you are caught travelling above 60 mph on a non-limited access highway, you are not given a citation that can be mailed in, you must appear in court).

It would make sense that there is non-surety bond attached to the promise to appear, however, that's the only place I can imagine bond being necessary in a violation citation.

rmaxima2010

I don't think police officer can give you a ticket based on video or anyother reason except to clock you with their radar as they have everything video recorded so they video tape the radar reading when clocking you,but without that ,she has no right to give you that ticket based on the distance and the speed of the car in front of you.
i feel sorry for you but you have to fight it, and actually I would recommend you to hire a lawyer you pay him but he will be able to get your right,
good like

melvinman2003

FIGHT THE TICKET!! I have fought everyone of mine and still have no points and my insurance is still the same. They can easily drop it to another charge (less money) or drop it. Most the time cops don't show. Other option is have a lawyer fight it for $50-100.

Usually you will pay for court costs but its well worth it from having your insurance going up $250 a year for the next 3-5 years or however long it takes your insurance to forget about it.

People that say pay it are morons. Always fight it.

phatboislim

iTrader: (27)

and who doesnt speed, moral of my story was i was not extreme speeding as the cop said, dont come at me acting like a jack

NmexMAX

iTrader: (22)

So, fight the ticket, keep it off your record, and hope for the best.