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There are a couple of current threads here discussing the FSB (front sway bar) end-links. Nelsito65 went and posted this great picture of the OEM end-link, side-by-side with the MOOG part. The differences are obvious.
That got me thinking about the MOOG Ball Joints and Tie-rod ends. I'm really only planning on replacing them when or if they ever fail. But now that I see this end-link, I'm wondering if the MOOG ball joints and tie-rod ends are "upgrades".
Anybody with opinions on that? Pictures, maybe?
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NWP phenolic intake spacers, Cattman y-pipe, Cattman 2.5" cat-back, Frankencar short-ram intake, Apexi pop charger, UR crank pulley, ES motor-mount and sub-mount bushings, Racingline FSTB, Progress RSB, STS mod w/ES bushings, Brembo blanks, Hawk ceramic pads, Goodyear Eagle F1's -- 54,000 original owner miles
The moog suspension joints are a good replacement whenever the existing ones fail.
However, they are far from an upgrade, and I wouldn't recommend changing out perfectly functional stock ends for the MOOG ends. They are a nice improvement over stock, but not worth changing to if your existing ones are operational.
One must note that despite the larger rod being used on the sway bar endlinks, what matters is the ball joint itself. I have seen MOOG joints becoming loose after a couple years of use. The serviceable nature of the MOOG suspension joints allow the masking of the creaking noise, which is an indication of worn out joints.
I have been using the 200,000 miles factory sway bar endlinks on my 240sx with Tanabe sway bars. They were fine and really tight. Those parts rarely wear out.
Truthfully, once in a while I would read about ball joint failure being reported on different forums. However, as a mechanic I have never actually replaced any ball joints for my customers. The only times I saw ball joints failure were when the owner hit a curb, which required changing out the entire control arms. Ball joints themselves, I have never had to replace any.
One way to check when your ball joints are in need of replacement is by shaking the control arm or spindles while the car is suspended with wheels removed. If there is any wiggle room from the ball joints, that is a sign of ball joint failure.
I can't speak for Moog ball joints but the tie rods/tie rod ends didn't visually strike me as an upgrade. Mechanically, it might be a different story, because as mentioned the actual joints are the most important part.
__________________ 137k miles
To-do: Belts, Fix suspension problem Major probs fixed: Lower oil pan | Radiator | EVAP canister/valve| VIAS Control Valve | Rear VC | Exhaust hole near axle
The moog suspension joints are a good replacement whenever the existing ones fail.
However, they are far from an upgrade, and I wouldn't recommend changing out perfectly functional stock ends for the MOOG ends. They are a nice improvement over stock, but not worth changing to if your existing ones are operational.
One must note that despite the larger rod being used on the sway bar endlinks, what matters is the ball joint itself. I have seen MOOG joints becoming loose after a couple years of use. The serviceable nature of the MOOG suspension joints allow the masking of the creaking noise, which is an indication of worn out joints.
I have been using the 200,000 miles factory sway bar endlinks on my 240sx with Tanabe sway bars. They were fine and really tight. Those parts rarely wear out.
Truthfully, once in a while I would read about ball joint failure being reported on different forums. However, as a mechanic I have never actually replaced any ball joints for my customers. The only times I saw ball joints failure were when the owner hit a curb, which required changing out the entire control arms. Ball joints themselves, I have never had to replace any.
One way to check when your ball joints are in need of replacement is by shaking the control arm or spindles while the car is suspended with wheels removed. If there is any wiggle room from the ball joints, that is a sign of ball joint failure.
That was a great response. Exactly the kind of insight that's helpful for people evaluating replacement parts.
Perhaps my original plan is best: before having my suspension mods installed in the spring, step in for a quick lift and have my mechanic analyze the ball-joints and tie-rod ends first.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoncefA33
MOOG is used by NASCAR.
Which means your car will handle like a NASCAR.
Not helpful, but still (a little) entertaining.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ridinwitha35
I can't speak for Moog ball joints but the tie rods/tie rod ends didn't visually strike me as an upgrade. Mechanically, it might be a different story, because as mentioned the actual joints are the most important part.
They look like a stronger design to me, why not to you? I assumed the thicker bar in the end-link meant a stronger, more solid connection. Not so, by your reasoning.
But then why is the SE swaybar 23 mm, vs the 22 mm sway bar on the non-SE models? Isn't thicker better?
MoncefA33, this is where you chime in with, "That's what she said."
__________________
NWP phenolic intake spacers, Cattman y-pipe, Cattman 2.5" cat-back, Frankencar short-ram intake, Apexi pop charger, UR crank pulley, ES motor-mount and sub-mount bushings, Racingline FSTB, Progress RSB, STS mod w/ES bushings, Brembo blanks, Hawk ceramic pads, Goodyear Eagle F1's -- 54,000 original owner miles
Perhaps my original plan is best: before having my suspension mods installed in the spring, step in for a quick lift and have my mechanic analyze the ball-joints and tie-rod ends first.
The inspection will be done prior to your alignement. I needed a ball joint on my car.
They look like a stronger design to me, why not to you? I assumed the thicker bar in the end-link meant a stronger, more solid connection. Not so, by your reasoning.
But then why is the SE swaybar 23 mm, vs the 22 mm sway bar on the non-SE models? Isn't thicker better?
The sway bar is a torsion spring, so thicker (or shorter) makes for a higher rate.
The end links are strictly in tension and compression. If the stockers don't deflect, then thicker is meaningless....except for marketing.
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LTB II, CAI, H&R, Illuminas, ES shifter, subframe, engine mounts, sway bar bushes, Megan OE-RE, Watkins STS.
That was a great response. Exactly the kind of insight that's helpful for people evaluating replacement parts.
Perhaps my original plan is best: before having my suspension mods installed in the spring, step in for a quick lift and have my mechanic analyze the ball-joints and tie-rod ends first.
Not helpful, but still (a little) entertaining.
They look like a stronger design to me, why not to you? I assumed the thicker bar in the end-link meant a stronger, more solid connection. Not so, by your reasoning.
But then why is the SE swaybar 23 mm, vs the 22 mm sway bar on the non-SE models? Isn't thicker better?
MoncefA33, this is where you chime in with, "That's what she said."
Thanks Rochester.
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2001 A33 AE || KV3 || 5MT || VLSD
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"However, they are far from an upgrade, and I wouldn't recommend changing out perfectly functional stock ends for the MOOG ends. They are a nice improvement over stock, but not worth changing to if your existing ones are operational."
They're not an UPGRADE per say, but a nice improvement. I hardly notice a difference in handling or driveability between OEM and Moog, but when replacing them, for the price and Moog being known for their suspension parts, it's more of a "why not.."
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Eclipse CD3000
Audison LRx 6.9-> Rainbow SLC 265.03, (2) 10" DLS Reference W710's
Knukonceptz 1/0awg / Cascade VB2Max / Stinger / Clifford / Optima
Exterior: stock-tastic. I can install your suspension and stereo. Click here for info!
"However, they are far from an upgrade, and I wouldn't recommend changing out perfectly functional stock ends for the MOOG ends. They are a nice improvement over stock, but not worth changing to if your existing ones are operational."
They're not an UPGRADE per say, but a nice improvement. I hardly notice a difference in handling or driveability between OEM and Moog, but when replacing them, for the price and Moog being known for their suspension parts, it's more of a "why not.."
Yours is always a welcome opinion, djfrestyl. Thank you.
So taking that one step further, (and hopefully not putting words in your mouth), a philosophy of "why not" doesn't apply to ball joints and tie-rod ends because they are relatively expensive when compared to $15 MOOG end-links.
You've crossed paths with me on this issue a few times, so I apologize for seeming redundant. I've been trying to lock down a reasonable and practical approach to these parts, and got side-tracked seeing the side-by-side picture of the end-links. I think that summary is:
(1) If you're already "down there" with suspension and/or brake work, replace the end-links with MOOG parts because they're inexpensive and good-as or better than OEM. (Including ES sway bar bushings.)
(2) Replace the ball-joints and tie-rod ends with MOOG parts when they fail.
Yes?
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NWP phenolic intake spacers, Cattman y-pipe, Cattman 2.5" cat-back, Frankencar short-ram intake, Apexi pop charger, UR crank pulley, ES motor-mount and sub-mount bushings, Racingline FSTB, Progress RSB, STS mod w/ES bushings, Brembo blanks, Hawk ceramic pads, Goodyear Eagle F1's -- 54,000 original owner miles
Option #2, but apply that to end links as well. No point in replacing anything before they fail. The end link job is easy enough to do on its own. And the difference in handling is marginal - if any at all.
__________________
Eclipse CD3000
Audison LRx 6.9-> Rainbow SLC 265.03, (2) 10" DLS Reference W710's
Knukonceptz 1/0awg / Cascade VB2Max / Stinger / Clifford / Optima
Exterior: stock-tastic. I can install your suspension and stereo. Click here for info!
i've been using MOOG parts for many years now, and recommend them to all my customers over other aftermarket parts that are available on the market.
My main reasons for MOOG parts over other aftermarket counterparts are:
1. better in design
2. greesable
3. good warranty
4. priced well compared to oem
5. descent fit and finish
This goes true for all of their suspension parts, and I've done all of them, inner/outer tie rods, ball joints, etc.
When you are trying to compare to OEM, then I would not necessarily consider these an upgrade per functionality as I like the fit and finish of most OEM products, the longevity of OEM is adequate, the most common different from OEm parts is the price as these tend to be pricier than MOOG parts. Every once in a while you can find a descent price on OEM suspension parts that are comparable to aftermarket, but in general they are much more.
Option #2, but apply that to end links as well. No point in replacing anything before they fail. The end link job is easy enough to do on its own. And the difference in handling is marginal - if any at all.
I agree.
Most of the time when it comes to end links, it's the annoying clattering noise you get over uneven surfaces over handling, reason why you'd replace the end links unless they're bad to a point that they pop out of their joints or break, then its a handling issue on top of the clunking noise.
Glad this thread was posted, as I'm thinking my TRE's might be worn. I ordered new MOOG TRE's from Advance Auto. They set me back $81+change, but haven't put them on yet. Don't know if I'll get around to putting them on before I leave for my business trip to be able to give an opinion on better or not. Would still like to hear what everybody elses opinions are.
Option #2, but apply that to end links as well. No point in replacing anything before they fail. The end link job is easy enough to do on its own. And the difference in handling is marginal - if any at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nsnrider
I agree.
Most of the time when it comes to end links, it's the annoying clattering noise you get over uneven surfaces over handling, reason why you'd replace the end links unless they're bad to a point that they pop out of their joints or break, then its a handling issue on top of the clunking noise.
OK, OK. Man, I keep trying to spend money, and you guys keep trying to put it back in my pocket! OK, I get it. (Phew!)
I'm going to cool my jets on end-links, tie-rod ends, and ball-joints. In March, I'll put it up on the lift and go over this stuff with my mechanic, to assess the situation before planned April mods. (By the way, that's the advice of my mechanic, too... replace these things only when they break.)
I'm done. I've got the advice I needed, just not necessarily the advice I wanted. Thanks, guys.
__________________
NWP phenolic intake spacers, Cattman y-pipe, Cattman 2.5" cat-back, Frankencar short-ram intake, Apexi pop charger, UR crank pulley, ES motor-mount and sub-mount bushings, Racingline FSTB, Progress RSB, STS mod w/ES bushings, Brembo blanks, Hawk ceramic pads, Goodyear Eagle F1's -- 54,000 original owner miles
Plugs are less than 2 years old; Iridium Tips. I had one coil replaced 18 months ago, the others are original equipment. Codes? Don't know, but the CEL hasn't started yet.
What sucks is I just had the spacers installed, which would have been nice timing to coincide with bad coils. Not that you can plan that crap. See, this speaks right to the heart of things with this thread: spending money on upgrades is fun. Spending money on repairs is decidedly not fun.
Coils are expensive. Oh boy.
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NWP phenolic intake spacers, Cattman y-pipe, Cattman 2.5" cat-back, Frankencar short-ram intake, Apexi pop charger, UR crank pulley, ES motor-mount and sub-mount bushings, Racingline FSTB, Progress RSB, STS mod w/ES bushings, Brembo blanks, Hawk ceramic pads, Goodyear Eagle F1's -- 54,000 original owner miles
Probably another coil. By codes I mean if a CEL or SES appeared yet. Hopefully one appears soon so you know which cylinder it is.
Agree - good luck
Hooked it up at my mechanic's shop this morning. No CEL, but it did register a misfire on the #2 cylinder; (I think the code was P302 or something like that.) So we replaced the coil pack on #2 and cleared the codes. Runs great again.
Very pleased it was in front. 1-3-5 are a PITA.
I'm out $130 for parts and labor/diagnosis, and a half-day of work, but I got it fixed ASAP and the car runs good again. What can I say... cars are expensive.
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NWP phenolic intake spacers, Cattman y-pipe, Cattman 2.5" cat-back, Frankencar short-ram intake, Apexi pop charger, UR crank pulley, ES motor-mount and sub-mount bushings, Racingline FSTB, Progress RSB, STS mod w/ES bushings, Brembo blanks, Hawk ceramic pads, Goodyear Eagle F1's -- 54,000 original owner miles
All i have left to change out are the MOOG ball joints up front. I have replaced endlinks, inner and outer ties, & strut mounts with moog parts. Each part, except for the strut mounts, have been noticably meatier than the stock counterpart. At 130k, all of these parts were pretty worn and could be moved freely by hand with no force. Everything except the strut mounts NEEDED to be replaced. I am in the process of replacing all the bushings up front with ES hoping I will acheive the suspension/steering we all long for.
Also, for those going to advanced for parts, dont forget about the $10 off $25 coupons floating around here...
|| KV3 || 5MT || VLSD
Thanks Rochester.
See, this speaks right to the heart of things with this thread: spending money on upgrades is fun. Spending money on repairs is decidedly not fun.
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