MT Front Pump Seal?
03-27-2008, 12:36 PM
#1
MT Front Pump Seal?
Greetings,
I have a 5spd and recently visited a mechanic that fixed my gear oil leak by replacing both front axles and both axle seals($935). I drove her home and everything felt great until about 4500 rpm when I felt the clutch slip and the smell of wasting gear oil returned. I take the car back to the shop and was told that the "front pump seal" is now leaking as the gear oil is finding its way to the weaker seals now that the front axle seals are new and the gear oil is finding its way to the clutch plate hence the slippage. Everything this guy is saying makes sense to me and I sorta believe him but I am sure he is no Maxima expert. He has quoted me another $900 to drop the tranny and replace the front pump seal as well as the "next to go" rear seal. Please any input will be grateful.
I just got word from NISSAN that manual transmissions have an input shaft seal and a striking rod seal not a front pump seal(at) and although these 2 seals can leak gear oil it is improbable not impossible that this is the case.
2000 5sp 175k+ miles
I have a 5spd and recently visited a mechanic that fixed my gear oil leak by replacing both front axles and both axle seals($935). I drove her home and everything felt great until about 4500 rpm when I felt the clutch slip and the smell of wasting gear oil returned. I take the car back to the shop and was told that the "front pump seal" is now leaking as the gear oil is finding its way to the weaker seals now that the front axle seals are new and the gear oil is finding its way to the clutch plate hence the slippage. Everything this guy is saying makes sense to me and I sorta believe him but I am sure he is no Maxima expert. He has quoted me another $900 to drop the tranny and replace the front pump seal as well as the "next to go" rear seal. Please any input will be grateful.
I just got word from NISSAN that manual transmissions have an input shaft seal and a striking rod seal not a front pump seal(at) and although these 2 seals can leak gear oil it is improbable not impossible that this is the case.
2000 5sp 175k+ miles
Last edited by maseo77; 03-27-2008 at 01:12 PM.
03-27-2008, 03:25 PM
#2
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 933
There is no "front pump" seal on a manual tranny like the dealer informed you, but there is a tranny input shaft seal that if it leaks can contaminate the clutch with tranny fluid. But it looks like that this seal was probably leaking before and is still leaking (if it's actually tranny fluid?). If this seal is good it should not just start leaking just because of any change in the fluid level which is now probably at the max. level after being topped up by the mechanic after the replacement of the seals and driveaxles. For it to leak so suddenly after the repair, that you now have the clutch slipping because of the tranny fluid, is not likely. Was the clutch slipping before and is the clutch original? Changing the tranny input shaft seal requires pulling the tranny. I really question the troubleshooting done by your mechanic. Both seals and both driveaxles replaced? Now he's suggesting the input shaft seal and the engine rear crankshaft seal? The striking (shift) rod seal is a piece of cake to change, and it is easy to spot any leaking from this seal. The problem is that this can snowball rapidly because if you pull the tranny to replace the tranny input shaft seal, with your mileage it now makes sense to replace the clutch if it's the original, and the crankshaft rear seal.
Last edited by P. Samson; 03-27-2008 at 03:29 PM.
03-27-2008, 04:54 PM
#3
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 601
Greetings,
I have a 5spd and recently visited a mechanic that fixed my gear oil leak by replacing both front axles and both axle seals($935). I drove her home and everything felt great until about 4500 rpm when I felt the clutch slip and the smell of wasting gear oil returned. I take the car back to the shop and was told that the "front pump seal" is now leaking as the gear oil is finding its way to the weaker seals now that the front axle seals are new and the gear oil is finding its way to the clutch plate hence the slippage. Everything this guy is saying makes sense to me and I sorta believe him but I am sure he is no Maxima expert. He has quoted me another $900 to drop the tranny and replace the front pump seal as well as the "next to go" rear seal. Please any input will be grateful.
I just got word from NISSAN that manual transmissions have an input shaft seal and a striking rod seal not a front pump seal(at) and although these 2 seals can leak gear oil it is improbable not impossible that this is the case.
2000 5sp 175k+ miles
I have a 5spd and recently visited a mechanic that fixed my gear oil leak by replacing both front axles and both axle seals($935). I drove her home and everything felt great until about 4500 rpm when I felt the clutch slip and the smell of wasting gear oil returned. I take the car back to the shop and was told that the "front pump seal" is now leaking as the gear oil is finding its way to the weaker seals now that the front axle seals are new and the gear oil is finding its way to the clutch plate hence the slippage. Everything this guy is saying makes sense to me and I sorta believe him but I am sure he is no Maxima expert. He has quoted me another $900 to drop the tranny and replace the front pump seal as well as the "next to go" rear seal. Please any input will be grateful.
I just got word from NISSAN that manual transmissions have an input shaft seal and a striking rod seal not a front pump seal(at) and although these 2 seals can leak gear oil it is improbable not impossible that this is the case.
2000 5sp 175k+ miles
How could after replacing axle seals the fluid go to next weaker spot? Manual transmissions are SPLASH lubricated not pressure. So if a leak was there before it is the exact same now after replacing axle seals.
Did he say pump seal? haha again splash lubrication by gear submerged in oil and by turning in oil it will pick up some and throw it on other gears to lube them. So no pump.
SO go tell him that the first 900 should have gone towards dropping the tranny and replacing the rear main engine seal and input shaft seal (both in the clutch housing area) and he should have left the axles alone as they cannot cause leaks and while they had the tranny out replacing the axle seals would have been an extra 5 minutes since tranny was down axles were out etc.
SO tell him you are not happy about his weak and quick misdiagnosis and the labour to drop the tranny should be covered by the shop (all they lookse is 6 hours pay) and then while it's in there you are willing to purchase the seals yourself from NISSAN and have them install them. Also tell them while they have the tranny off to slide then new clutch instead of the old one and a new pressure plate. Offer to pay an extra hour or max 2 for the clutch install if you really want so they get something and be happy as they have to take old one out anyways, so might as well install the new one after back.
Read this post a few times and explain it to them the same way i did to you.
03-27-2008, 06:57 PM
#4
he changed the axles? why? haha money out the window.
How could after replacing axle seals the fluid go to next weaker spot? Manual transmissions are SPLASH lubricated not pressure. So if a leak was there before it is the exact same now after replacing axle seals.
Did he say pump seal? haha again splash lubrication by gear submerged in oil and by turning in oil it will pick up some and throw it on other gears to lube them. So no pump.
SO go tell him that the first 900 should have gone towards dropping the tranny and replacing the rear main engine seal and input shaft seal (both in the clutch housing area) and he should have left the axles alone as they cannot cause leaks and while they had the tranny out replacing the axle seals would have been an extra 5 minutes since tranny was down axles were out etc.
SO tell him you are not happy about his weak and quick misdiagnosis and the labour to drop the tranny should be covered by the shop (all they lookse is 6 hours pay) and then while it's in there you are willing to purchase the seals yourself from NISSAN and have them install them. Also tell them while they have the tranny off to slide then new clutch instead of the old one and a new pressure plate. Offer to pay an extra hour or max 2 for the clutch install if you really want so they get something and be happy as they have to take old one out anyways, so might as well install the new one after back.
Read this post a few times and explain it to them the same way i did to you.
How could after replacing axle seals the fluid go to next weaker spot? Manual transmissions are SPLASH lubricated not pressure. So if a leak was there before it is the exact same now after replacing axle seals.
Did he say pump seal? haha again splash lubrication by gear submerged in oil and by turning in oil it will pick up some and throw it on other gears to lube them. So no pump.
SO go tell him that the first 900 should have gone towards dropping the tranny and replacing the rear main engine seal and input shaft seal (both in the clutch housing area) and he should have left the axles alone as they cannot cause leaks and while they had the tranny out replacing the axle seals would have been an extra 5 minutes since tranny was down axles were out etc.
SO tell him you are not happy about his weak and quick misdiagnosis and the labour to drop the tranny should be covered by the shop (all they lookse is 6 hours pay) and then while it's in there you are willing to purchase the seals yourself from NISSAN and have them install them. Also tell them while they have the tranny off to slide then new clutch instead of the old one and a new pressure plate. Offer to pay an extra hour or max 2 for the clutch install if you really want so they get something and be happy as they have to take old one out anyways, so might as well install the new one after back.
Read this post a few times and explain it to them the same way i did to you.
03-27-2008, 07:01 PM
#5
There is no "front pump" seal on a manual tranny like the dealer informed you, but there is a tranny input shaft seal that if it leaks can contaminate the clutch with tranny fluid. But it looks like that this seal was probably leaking before and is still leaking (if it's actually tranny fluid?). If this seal is good it should not just start leaking just because of any change in the fluid level which is now probably at the max. level after being topped up by the mechanic after the replacement of the seals and driveaxles. For it to leak so suddenly after the repair, that you now have the clutch slipping because of the tranny fluid, is not likely. Was the clutch slipping before and is the clutch original? Changing the tranny input shaft seal requires pulling the tranny. I really question the troubleshooting done by your mechanic. Both seals and both driveaxles replaced? Now he's suggesting the input shaft seal and the engine rear crankshaft seal? The striking (shift) rod seal is a piece of cake to change, and it is easy to spot any leaking from this seal. The problem is that this can snowball rapidly because if you pull the tranny to replace the tranny input shaft seal, with your mileage it now makes sense to replace the clutch if it's the original, and the crankshaft rear seal.
03-27-2008, 08:03 PM
#6
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 933
I wonder if your mechanic ever bothered to actually remove the tranny case (bellhousing) access cover (takes 10 seconds) and look inside to see if it's engine oil leaking from in front of the flywheel from the crankshaft rear seal, or is it tranny fluid? Or is he just not too bright, or is he jerking you around? Unfortunately I just checked the FSM and it sure looks to me like IF it is the front tranny seal leaking, that the tranny case has to be split (partial tranny disassembly) to replace the seal. If your clutch is contaminated with whatever fluid and slipping like you mentioned, then you're also looking at a clutch replacement and the associated work/parts. Make sure that the pilot bushing is also checked for wear/replaced, and that they check that the tranny input shaft bearing is in good shape (ie. no radial movement of the shaft). Excessive radial movement of the input shaft could cause fluid to get past the seal. As Nissan mentioned to you, I don't believe this seal is prone to leaking. And.......even if the rear crankshaft seal is not obviously leaking it may still be wise to change it while it's accessible. I guess some of this depends on how well you like the car or how long you plan to keep it.
Last edited by P. Samson; 03-27-2008 at 08:09 PM.
03-27-2008, 10:26 PM
#7
I wonder if your mechanic ever bothered to actually remove the tranny case (bellhousing) access cover (takes 10 seconds) and look inside to see if it's engine oil leaking from in front of the flywheel from the crankshaft rear seal, or is it tranny fluid? Or is he just not too bright, or is he jerking you around? Unfortunately I just checked the FSM and it sure looks to me like IF it is the front tranny seal leaking, that the tranny case has to be split (partial tranny disassembly) to replace the seal. If your clutch is contaminated with whatever fluid and slipping like you mentioned, then you're also looking at a clutch replacement and the associated work/parts. Make sure that the pilot bushing is also checked for wear/replaced, and that they check that the tranny input shaft bearing is in good shape (ie. no radial movement of the shaft). Excessive radial movement of the input shaft could cause fluid to get past the seal. As Nissan mentioned to you, I don't believe this seal is prone to leaking. And.......even if the rear crankshaft seal is not obviously leaking it may still be wise to change it while it's accessible. I guess some of this depends on how well you like the car or how long you plan to keep it.
07-04-2008, 02:49 PM
#11
Junior Member
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Baltimore
Posts: 20
I don't plan to keep it too long. I am sure my engine oil isn't leaking its pure gear oil I can smell it. I think this mechanic is trying to get as much cash from me as possible so I am going to call him in the am and tell him exactly what you guys have been telling me and see what he says, if it's not what I want to hear then I will tell him to suck an egg.
07-04-2008, 06:02 PM
#12
Not yet, the bad mechanic fixed some minor other issues I was having and I took my car back.
I am reluctant to go to the dealer because they always want to fix first then tell you how much and I am afraid to hear $1000+ because my money is F'ed up right now.
I am reluctant to go to the dealer because they always want to fix first then tell you how much and I am afraid to hear $1000+ because my money is F'ed up right now.
07-04-2008, 08:53 PM
#13
Supporting Maxima.org Member
iTrader: (29)
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Middleboro/Carver, Ma
Posts: 4,572
On maxi's, there is a lot of misconception regarding leaky rear main seals. It is a 2-peice seal that also has a rubber gasket on the bottom for the upper oil-pan. This requires removal of the upper oil-pan to do the job correctly, if the tranny is out and you are attempting to also do the actual rear-main (rarely ever needed, see below) than this job gets quite hairy, it involves a cherry picker and crappy working conditions to do it properly (FSM FTW). The upper oil-pan seal, with the trannsmission (and more importantly, it's mount) still in place, it isn't as bad, but nonetheless still not for the novice. 99% of cars have a rear-main seal that is completely seperate from the oil pan, this is where the misconceptions arise. The problem is that most people mistake the leaky oil-pan seal for a leaky rear-main seal, and than attempt to replace both seals without actually removing the oil-pan, and just end up making things worse.
Anyways, here's my take on all of this:
Still yet to see an input seal leak on an MT, even in trannies where the bearing was so wasted that the cage was missing on the input bearings.
Still yet to see a rear-main seal leak at all, nevermind come close to contaminating the clutch.
Still yet to see an upper oil-pan seal leak bad enough to contaminate the clutch, BUT they develop sweat leaks like clockwork, I've seen like at least 3 vq's in the under 50k mile range (swap motors) that were just starting to weep here. By 150-200K they get BAD, but still don't leak enough to go around the flywheel and contaminate the clutch.
HOWEVER, I've twice seen (well once was me on my own car) a rear-main seal that was improperly replaced (IE NOT removing the upper oil-pan) cause clutch contamination. Worst part is, that the rear-mains don't really ever warrant replacing, it's the upper oil-pans seals that do, and even those are a.... not really.
SO, with that said and out of the way (for brittonj85). Maseo, If your clutch was immediately slipping after that axle and seal blow-job, either the mechanic A: Misadjusted your clutch. Or B: Dumped gear-oil down your slave cylinder boot. Or C: By some freak of nature, something else (input shaft, rear-main, or upper oil-pan) decided to spring a leak...... But of course, if you read the top of my post, you'll know that C doesn't exactly happen. Ever.
Anyways, here's my take on all of this:
Still yet to see an input seal leak on an MT, even in trannies where the bearing was so wasted that the cage was missing on the input bearings.
Still yet to see a rear-main seal leak at all, nevermind come close to contaminating the clutch.
Still yet to see an upper oil-pan seal leak bad enough to contaminate the clutch, BUT they develop sweat leaks like clockwork, I've seen like at least 3 vq's in the under 50k mile range (swap motors) that were just starting to weep here. By 150-200K they get BAD, but still don't leak enough to go around the flywheel and contaminate the clutch.
HOWEVER, I've twice seen (well once was me on my own car) a rear-main seal that was improperly replaced (IE NOT removing the upper oil-pan) cause clutch contamination. Worst part is, that the rear-mains don't really ever warrant replacing, it's the upper oil-pans seals that do, and even those are a.... not really.
SO, with that said and out of the way (for brittonj85). Maseo, If your clutch was immediately slipping after that axle and seal blow-job, either the mechanic A: Misadjusted your clutch. Or B: Dumped gear-oil down your slave cylinder boot. Or C: By some freak of nature, something else (input shaft, rear-main, or upper oil-pan) decided to spring a leak...... But of course, if you read the top of my post, you'll know that C doesn't exactly happen. Ever.
Last edited by KRRZ350; 07-04-2008 at 09:10 PM.
07-04-2008, 11:24 PM
#14
On maxi's, there is a lot of misconception regarding leaky rear main seals. It is a 2-peice seal that also has a rubber gasket on the bottom for the upper oil-pan. This requires removal of the upper oil-pan to do the job correctly, if the tranny is out and you are attempting to also do the actual rear-main (rarely ever needed, see below) than this job gets quite hairy, it involves a cherry picker and crappy working conditions to do it properly (FSM FTW). The upper oil-pan seal, with the trannsmission (and more importantly, it's mount) still in place, it isn't as bad, but nonetheless still not for the novice. 99% of cars have a rear-main seal that is completely seperate from the oil pan, this is where the misconceptions arise. The problem is that most people mistake the leaky oil-pan seal for a leaky rear-main seal, and than attempt to replace both seals without actually removing the oil-pan, and just end up making things worse.
Anyways, here's my take on all of this:
Still yet to see an input seal leak on an MT, even in trannies where the bearing was so wasted that the cage was missing on the input bearings.
Still yet to see a rear-main seal leak at all, nevermind come close to contaminating the clutch.
Still yet to see an upper oil-pan seal leak bad enough to contaminate the clutch, BUT they develop sweat leaks like clockwork, I've seen like at least 3 vq's in the under 50k mile range (swap motors) that were just starting to weep here. By 150-200K they get BAD, but still don't leak enough to go around the flywheel and contaminate the clutch.
HOWEVER, I've twice seen (well once was me on my own car) a rear-main seal that was improperly replaced (IE NOT removing the upper oil-pan) cause clutch contamination. Worst part is, that the rear-mains don't really ever warrant replacing, it's the upper oil-pans seals that do, and even those are a.... not really.
SO, with that said and out of the way (for brittonj85). Maseo, If your clutch was immediately slipping after that axle and seal blow-job, either the mechanic A: Misadjusted your clutch. Or B: Dumped gear-oil down your slave cylinder boot. Or C: By some freak of nature, something else (input shaft, rear-main, or upper oil-pan) decided to spring a leak...... But of course, if you read the top of my post, you'll know that C doesn't exactly happen. Ever.
Anyways, here's my take on all of this:
Still yet to see an input seal leak on an MT, even in trannies where the bearing was so wasted that the cage was missing on the input bearings.
Still yet to see a rear-main seal leak at all, nevermind come close to contaminating the clutch.
Still yet to see an upper oil-pan seal leak bad enough to contaminate the clutch, BUT they develop sweat leaks like clockwork, I've seen like at least 3 vq's in the under 50k mile range (swap motors) that were just starting to weep here. By 150-200K they get BAD, but still don't leak enough to go around the flywheel and contaminate the clutch.
HOWEVER, I've twice seen (well once was me on my own car) a rear-main seal that was improperly replaced (IE NOT removing the upper oil-pan) cause clutch contamination. Worst part is, that the rear-mains don't really ever warrant replacing, it's the upper oil-pans seals that do, and even those are a.... not really.
SO, with that said and out of the way (for brittonj85). Maseo, If your clutch was immediately slipping after that axle and seal blow-job, either the mechanic A: Misadjusted your clutch. Or B: Dumped gear-oil down your slave cylinder boot. Or C: By some freak of nature, something else (input shaft, rear-main, or upper oil-pan) decided to spring a leak...... But of course, if you read the top of my post, you'll know that C doesn't exactly happen. Ever.
07-11-2008, 05:13 PM
#16
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 601
On maxi's, there is a lot of misconception regarding leaky rear main seals. It is a 2-peice seal that also has a rubber gasket on the bottom for the upper oil-pan. This requires removal of the upper oil-pan to do the job correctly, if the tranny is out and you are attempting to also do the actual rear-main (rarely ever needed, see below) than this job gets quite hairy, it involves a cherry picker and crappy working conditions to do it properly (FSM FTW). The upper oil-pan seal, with the trannsmission (and more importantly, it's mount) still in place, it isn't as bad, but nonetheless still not for the novice. 99% of cars have a rear-main seal that is completely seperate from the oil pan, this is where the misconceptions arise. The problem is that most people mistake the leaky oil-pan seal for a leaky rear-main seal, and than attempt to replace both seals without actually removing the oil-pan, and just end up making things worse.
Anyways, here's my take on all of this:
Still yet to see an input seal leak on an MT, even in trannies where the bearing was so wasted that the cage was missing on the input bearings.
Still yet to see a rear-main seal leak at all, nevermind come close to contaminating the clutch.
Still yet to see an upper oil-pan seal leak bad enough to contaminate the clutch, BUT they develop sweat leaks like clockwork, I've seen like at least 3 vq's in the under 50k mile range (swap motors) that were just starting to weep here. By 150-200K they get BAD, but still don't leak enough to go around the flywheel and contaminate the clutch.
HOWEVER, I've twice seen (well once was me on my own car) a rear-main seal that was improperly replaced (IE NOT removing the upper oil-pan) cause clutch contamination. Worst part is, that the rear-mains don't really ever warrant replacing, it's the upper oil-pans seals that do, and even those are a.... not really.
SO, with that said and out of the way (for brittonj85). Maseo, If your clutch was immediately slipping after that axle and seal blow-job, either the mechanic A: Misadjusted your clutch. Or B: Dumped gear-oil down your slave cylinder boot. Or C: By some freak of nature, something else (input shaft, rear-main, or upper oil-pan) decided to spring a leak...... But of course, if you read the top of my post, you'll know that C doesn't exactly happen. Ever.
Anyways, here's my take on all of this:
Still yet to see an input seal leak on an MT, even in trannies where the bearing was so wasted that the cage was missing on the input bearings.
Still yet to see a rear-main seal leak at all, nevermind come close to contaminating the clutch.
Still yet to see an upper oil-pan seal leak bad enough to contaminate the clutch, BUT they develop sweat leaks like clockwork, I've seen like at least 3 vq's in the under 50k mile range (swap motors) that were just starting to weep here. By 150-200K they get BAD, but still don't leak enough to go around the flywheel and contaminate the clutch.
HOWEVER, I've twice seen (well once was me on my own car) a rear-main seal that was improperly replaced (IE NOT removing the upper oil-pan) cause clutch contamination. Worst part is, that the rear-mains don't really ever warrant replacing, it's the upper oil-pans seals that do, and even those are a.... not really.
SO, with that said and out of the way (for brittonj85). Maseo, If your clutch was immediately slipping after that axle and seal blow-job, either the mechanic A: Misadjusted your clutch. Or B: Dumped gear-oil down your slave cylinder boot. Or C: By some freak of nature, something else (input shaft, rear-main, or upper oil-pan) decided to spring a leak...... But of course, if you read the top of my post, you'll know that C doesn't exactly happen. Ever.
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