Truax SFCs are on. Thoughts/impressions
05-11-2007, 11:30 AM
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Truax SFCs are on. Thoughts/impressions
Today I had the SFCs installed by Piper Motorsports - probably one of the most respected race shops on the east coast. These guys do mostly serious racecars (i.e. they don't install Stillen body kits or intakes, haha), and are well known in this area for building roll bars and roll cages for spec racecars and autocrossers.
I was lucky to get in because of a cancellation, since they usually have a 2-3 month backlog for work. I also will note that in Northern Virginia labor costs are high at shops like this ($85/hour per person) so i expected to pay a couple hunski for the job.
So, what you all want to hear about now:
The fit: The GM commented to me that the SFCs "looked like someone made them in his garage," as some of the tabs were not level and were either too high or too low - the obviously could have been caused by my old, beat frame as well. He did, however, say that it would "do the job just fine." They had no problem re-adjusting everything, but it did take them a little while (which cost me more). They could not make enough room to "flip" the center brace and crossbrace as I had hoped, unfortunately.
The job: looks strong and clean to me. These guys build serious racecars, so I wouldn't expect anything less.
Test drive:
1. It's hard to find crappy roads in this area. I found myself looking for off-the-beaten-path road with rough surfaces and alot of pothole repairs. Hard to find around here!
2. Ride quality: Previously, when hitting any bump, big or small, the car would have a tendacy to "shudder" and feel a bit uncomposed - and it would be worse the bigger the bump. With the SFCs on, bumps basically just come off as a "thud" and the car no longer vibrates or shudders as it did. This was the most noticeable improvement in the SFCs, hands down. Also, interior rattles on rough roads are almost entirely eliminated, which is very nice.
3. Weight: Although some might not notice, I'm pretty in tune with my car and I can definitely feel the weight of the SFCs. Not such that I feel "slower" off the line or anything. Just that the car feels a bit "heavier."
4. Cornering: I actually feel like the car understeers a little more now. I need to go throw it around some twistier roads though and get a better feel for it. I did do some highway sweepers and the car leans a bit less - though I didn't feel like I could "take them faster" as some people have claimed. The exception is on bumpy offramp/onramp sweepers, where the car doesn't "skip" as much now on the bumps and feels more planted. On smooth roads though there doesn't seem to be much difference.
5. Quick lane-change: More responsive, though I car really feel how soft my Proxes4 are.
6. Dips/uneven areas: I can better "feel" each individual corner (spring/strut) working on its own. hard to explain, but the suspension is definitely "doing its job" more now than before.
7. Ground clearance: I managed to clear smaller and medium speed bumps with no scraping at very low speeds. There are some bigger ones at my office that I will try on Monday The crossbrace center section sits about as low as my LTB (LOW), but the LTB is between the wheels so doesn't scrape on speedbumps. I have a feeling it WILL drag on my work speedbumps. I'd really like to see the center section redesigned to allow more clearance, honestly. It could go up at least an inch and still clear the exhaust easily (when the factory crossbrace is removed). I am considering just taking off the crossbrace because it really sits pretty damn low - and I'm on Eibachs, which are not nearly as low as some of you with other springs/coilovers have.
Overall: I think it is worth the money ($300+250install), but would stop short of calling it "drastic improvement" as some have. I think it is a good upgrade, and I came in with low expectations so I wasn't disappointed. Just don't think it will make your car handle like a Lotus.
It doesn't make the car feel like a "5-series BMW," quite - but it does make my tired 125k 7-year-old Maxima feel like a NEW Maxima, and that's worth it for me.
I know you guys will be very disappointed though - I didnt take any pics up on the lift - at the rate they charged, i didn't want to slow them down at all, heh.
BTW, they didn't use a true 4-post lift, but a 2post with a long "scissor" that supported the subframe very far forward and back. I asked about if this was OK, and the GM's answer made me confident that it would not be an issue (and I'm very cynical usually). Not to mention the $100k+ spec racing porsche a couple lifts down having bracing installed on the same kind of lift.
Here are a few snapshots I took, though most are not of the SFCs, sorry. I'll try to take better pics in a few days - but you guys all know what they look like anyways....
it's lower than it looks here...
other fun at the shop
fer-rar-i
two of Piper's team BMWs
I was lucky to get in because of a cancellation, since they usually have a 2-3 month backlog for work. I also will note that in Northern Virginia labor costs are high at shops like this ($85/hour per person) so i expected to pay a couple hunski for the job.
So, what you all want to hear about now:
The fit: The GM commented to me that the SFCs "looked like someone made them in his garage," as some of the tabs were not level and were either too high or too low - the obviously could have been caused by my old, beat frame as well. He did, however, say that it would "do the job just fine." They had no problem re-adjusting everything, but it did take them a little while (which cost me more). They could not make enough room to "flip" the center brace and crossbrace as I had hoped, unfortunately.
The job: looks strong and clean to me. These guys build serious racecars, so I wouldn't expect anything less.
Test drive:
1. It's hard to find crappy roads in this area. I found myself looking for off-the-beaten-path road with rough surfaces and alot of pothole repairs. Hard to find around here!
2. Ride quality: Previously, when hitting any bump, big or small, the car would have a tendacy to "shudder" and feel a bit uncomposed - and it would be worse the bigger the bump. With the SFCs on, bumps basically just come off as a "thud" and the car no longer vibrates or shudders as it did. This was the most noticeable improvement in the SFCs, hands down. Also, interior rattles on rough roads are almost entirely eliminated, which is very nice.
3. Weight: Although some might not notice, I'm pretty in tune with my car and I can definitely feel the weight of the SFCs. Not such that I feel "slower" off the line or anything. Just that the car feels a bit "heavier."
4. Cornering: I actually feel like the car understeers a little more now. I need to go throw it around some twistier roads though and get a better feel for it. I did do some highway sweepers and the car leans a bit less - though I didn't feel like I could "take them faster" as some people have claimed. The exception is on bumpy offramp/onramp sweepers, where the car doesn't "skip" as much now on the bumps and feels more planted. On smooth roads though there doesn't seem to be much difference.
5. Quick lane-change: More responsive, though I car really feel how soft my Proxes4 are.
6. Dips/uneven areas: I can better "feel" each individual corner (spring/strut) working on its own. hard to explain, but the suspension is definitely "doing its job" more now than before.
7. Ground clearance: I managed to clear smaller and medium speed bumps with no scraping at very low speeds. There are some bigger ones at my office that I will try on Monday The crossbrace center section sits about as low as my LTB (LOW), but the LTB is between the wheels so doesn't scrape on speedbumps. I have a feeling it WILL drag on my work speedbumps. I'd really like to see the center section redesigned to allow more clearance, honestly. It could go up at least an inch and still clear the exhaust easily (when the factory crossbrace is removed). I am considering just taking off the crossbrace because it really sits pretty damn low - and I'm on Eibachs, which are not nearly as low as some of you with other springs/coilovers have.
Overall: I think it is worth the money ($300+250install), but would stop short of calling it "drastic improvement" as some have. I think it is a good upgrade, and I came in with low expectations so I wasn't disappointed. Just don't think it will make your car handle like a Lotus.
It doesn't make the car feel like a "5-series BMW," quite - but it does make my tired 125k 7-year-old Maxima feel like a NEW Maxima, and that's worth it for me.
I know you guys will be very disappointed though - I didnt take any pics up on the lift - at the rate they charged, i didn't want to slow them down at all, heh.
BTW, they didn't use a true 4-post lift, but a 2post with a long "scissor" that supported the subframe very far forward and back. I asked about if this was OK, and the GM's answer made me confident that it would not be an issue (and I'm very cynical usually). Not to mention the $100k+ spec racing porsche a couple lifts down having bracing installed on the same kind of lift.
Here are a few snapshots I took, though most are not of the SFCs, sorry. I'll try to take better pics in a few days - but you guys all know what they look like anyways....
it's lower than it looks here...
other fun at the shop
fer-rar-i
two of Piper's team BMWs
05-11-2007, 01:11 PM
#4
Every reveiw seems to be slightly different, which is good and you learn more. One question for you, do you think the ride is "softer" when your spring/struts are "doing it's job?" Since it's putting more stress, I feel it will result in making the suspension feel softer?
Update us on ground clearance, as well. Wonderful things you pointed out.
Update us on ground clearance, as well. Wonderful things you pointed out.
05-11-2007, 04:34 PM
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update: just dragged one of the bolts on the crown of my in-laws driveway. Father-in-law standing on the front porch of his house. Look on his face: not happy.
I had to try and see if I would clear
I had to try and see if I would clear
05-11-2007, 04:43 PM
#7
Originally Posted by irish44j
update: just dragged one of the bolts on the crown of my in-laws driveway. Father-in-law standing on the front porch of his house. Look on his face: not happy.
I had to try and see if I would clear
I had to try and see if I would clear
05-11-2007, 04:45 PM
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Originally Posted by The Law
lol! nice josh. Pissed off in-law ftw!
It was like super-loud CCCCCCRRRRRURUUUUUUNNNNNCCCCHHHH, lol.
I have a couple ideas about a method to "flip" it so it sits higher which will be attempted tomorrow. Since my Frankencar b-pipe is pretty slim (compared to stock or cattman), I might have enough clearance. We'll see....
05-11-2007, 05:10 PM
#9
I will be installing this tomorrow in the morning since I didn't get to do it last week since I didn't have enough time to do it. I will try and see if they can flip it upside down to install without it hitting anything. Also is your crossbar still on josh?
05-11-2007, 05:13 PM
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Originally Posted by The Law
I will be installing this tomorrow in the morning since I didn't get to do it last week since I didn't have enough time to do it. I will try and see if they can flip it upside down to install without it hitting anything. Also is your crossbar still on josh?
05-11-2007, 05:18 PM
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Originally Posted by The Law
Oh I see. So the x-brace won't fit unless the crossbar is off?
05-11-2007, 05:26 PM
#13
Originally Posted by irish44j
they're both on there right now with about 2mm of clearance at most. But if I flip the xbrace, the stock crossbar will definitely have to come off.....
10char
05-11-2007, 06:16 PM
#16
Good review. I imagine the differences in reviews is mostly due to the difference in suspension mods some have compared to others. I would bet someone with just lowering springs and shocks would see more of an impact compared to Irish's ride which has everything else available installed.
05-12-2007, 06:28 AM
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on a positive note, my wife last night commented that the car was "really smooth and felt good" when we were driving - and she rarely notices when I do something different with the car.
05-12-2007, 09:29 AM
#18
Passenger side bar was a bit out of wack- my car wasn't ever in any accident. I had to weld on the front 1st.... then use a pole jack to jack up the middle so the tab touched the frame rail- so I can weld it up. When I got all the tabs welded on, the rear tab by the trailing arm bushing was about 3/8" away from the body. It seemed as if the tabs where misaligned or something. I just used a jack to "bend" the SFC upwards so I could weld in the last tab.
I wrote my review in the suspension forum, I usually don't come into the 5th gen forum anymore.....
But just to sum it up, less rattles- my car has been lowered for over 160K miles on some very stiff coilovers, so the shiat was all rattleing inside. Only rattles I get is stuff thats NOT part of the car- radar detector, drinks in the cup holder, junk in da trunk.... Car doesn't "crash" the irregularities on the road anymore, but absorbs the bumps. I find that with my JICs 9kg F/ 10kg R springs the car feels spectacular- especially at higher speeds with the SFCs. I can rotate the back end at will just have to be creative with the gas pedal, no understeer here
. I would say I gained quite a bit of comfort, and the suspension feels smoother than before- yet still stiff. I also felt a little bit of slowness.... but thats because you have to remove the battery clamp off the battery (welding with it all connected can have some catastrophic results, ECU, all electrical stuff fried out by the high amperage welder), I'm thinkin the ECU got reset and now its re-learning. But seeing how I got some crazy wheel spin in 2nd gear yesterday, I guess my power is back 
I wrote my review in the suspension forum, I usually don't come into the 5th gen forum anymore.....
But just to sum it up, less rattles- my car has been lowered for over 160K miles on some very stiff coilovers, so the shiat was all rattleing inside. Only rattles I get is stuff thats NOT part of the car- radar detector, drinks in the cup holder, junk in da trunk.... Car doesn't "crash" the irregularities on the road anymore, but absorbs the bumps. I find that with my JICs 9kg F/ 10kg R springs the car feels spectacular- especially at higher speeds with the SFCs. I can rotate the back end at will just have to be creative with the gas pedal, no understeer here
. I would say I gained quite a bit of comfort, and the suspension feels smoother than before- yet still stiff. I also felt a little bit of slowness.... but thats because you have to remove the battery clamp off the battery (welding with it all connected can have some catastrophic results, ECU, all electrical stuff fried out by the high amperage welder), I'm thinkin the ECU got reset and now its re-learning. But seeing how I got some crazy wheel spin in 2nd gear yesterday, I guess my power is back
05-12-2007, 09:57 AM
#19
Thanks for the review Josh, good to hear your thoughts. I'm actually a bit skeptical that you can feel the extra 40 pounds. If anyone could, you could; I'm just skeptical that anyone could. If you drove your car with the gas gauge taped over, could you reliably tell the difference between the car with 2/3 of a tank and 1/3 of a tank? That's about 40 pounds at the bottom of the car. (And since SFCs are centered, unlike the gas tank, they shouldn't affect weight distribution significantly.) If your car weighs 3300 pounds with you in it, 40 pounds is a 1.2% weight difference....
I'm guessing that the change in feel and handling of the car is what you're noticing, as a stiff-chassis'd car inherently feels heavier than the same car with flexes and rattles as it gets tossed around over bumps. Also, since they are as far below the center of gravity as you can get on the car, the SFCs pull the CG down more than 1.2%, I would guess maybe even 5%? That could also explain the qualitative difference.
I'm guessing that the change in feel and handling of the car is what you're noticing, as a stiff-chassis'd car inherently feels heavier than the same car with flexes and rattles as it gets tossed around over bumps. Also, since they are as far below the center of gravity as you can get on the car, the SFCs pull the CG down more than 1.2%, I would guess maybe even 5%? That could also explain the qualitative difference.
05-12-2007, 01:52 PM
#21
Alright guys I see a potential issue. The tabs not lining up perfectly. We are going to shoot for getting the 5th gen car we prototyped off back in later on this coming up week, and seeing if we cant tweak the jig we have so this isnt a problem anymore. Thanks again for all your reviews questions and support.
Sean
Tms
Sean
Tms
05-12-2007, 03:01 PM
#22
Generally it sounds like Josh is reporting similar results to what I said when I first got them. Although I felt the performance around long sweeping corners picked up quite a bit and I dont detect the extra weight at all. Other than that yes the proxe 4s feel soft in the corners.
In other news I am getting the feeling that for performance I really dont like progressive springs. With progressive springs it never seems like the springs and the shocks are matched in terms of rates. If I match the shocks to the eibachs initial rates then the car rides nice, but once I go over some larger bumps the eibachs compress and become stiffer than the shocks so the ride gets floaty. On the other hand if I make the shocks stiffer... over small bumps the car is too stiff and the ride gets bouncy.
Dont know if you've noticed the same thing but I doubt any other progressive spring would be any better in this regard and linear springs would be a little tough on the roads I drive on daily.
In other news I am getting the feeling that for performance I really dont like progressive springs. With progressive springs it never seems like the springs and the shocks are matched in terms of rates. If I match the shocks to the eibachs initial rates then the car rides nice, but once I go over some larger bumps the eibachs compress and become stiffer than the shocks so the ride gets floaty. On the other hand if I make the shocks stiffer... over small bumps the car is too stiff and the ride gets bouncy.
Dont know if you've noticed the same thing but I doubt any other progressive spring would be any better in this regard and linear springs would be a little tough on the roads I drive on daily.
05-12-2007, 05:20 PM
#23
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Originally Posted by VQuick
Thanks for the review Josh, good to hear your thoughts. I'm actually a bit skeptical that you can feel the extra 40 pounds. If anyone could, you could; I'm just skeptical that anyone could. If you drove your car with the gas gauge taped over, could you reliably tell the difference between the car with 2/3 of a tank and 1/3 of a tank? That's about 40 pounds at the bottom of the car. (And since SFCs are centered, unlike the gas tank, they shouldn't affect weight distribution significantly.) If your car weighs 3300 pounds with you in it, 40 pounds is a 1.2% weight difference....
I'm guessing that the change in feel and handling of the car is what you're noticing, as a stiff-chassis'd car inherently feels heavier than the same car with flexes and rattles as it gets tossed around over bumps. Also, since they are as far below the center of gravity as you can get on the car, the SFCs pull the CG down more than 1.2%, I would guess maybe even 5%? That could also explain the qualitative difference.
I'm guessing that the change in feel and handling of the car is what you're noticing, as a stiff-chassis'd car inherently feels heavier than the same car with flexes and rattles as it gets tossed around over bumps. Also, since they are as far below the center of gravity as you can get on the car, the SFCs pull the CG down more than 1.2%, I would guess maybe even 5%? That could also explain the qualitative difference.
05-12-2007, 05:23 PM
#24
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Originally Posted by bigEL
I've been cross-crossing town with the connectors in the back of my car for the past week looking for a shop to install them. I definitely notice the weight. The car squats and is sluggish pulling away from stops. I took the connectors out today because I needed the trunk space. It definitely feels more peppy. Something else I noticed was that just having the extra weight in my car made it feel much smoother over bumpy roads. I'm guessing it has to do with the ratio of suspended:unsuspended weight, because I notice the same thing last time I was hauling cases of soda/bottled water in my trunk.
I drive around with 120+ lbs. of stuff all the time and my car doesn't squat or feel different. 40lbs. should be nothing....check your struts or something.
05-12-2007, 05:27 PM
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It's not that the car necessarily feels slower, but you can feel the weight distro down low IMO. Oddly, with the cross-bracing off I don't feel any extra "weight" now.
Maybe it's mental, maybe it isn't
Maybe it's mental, maybe it isn't
05-12-2007, 06:54 PM
#26
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Originally Posted by LA02MAX
I drive around with 120+ lbs. of stuff all the time and my car doesn't squat or feel different. 40lbs. should be nothing....check your struts or something.
05-12-2007, 06:59 PM
#27
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Originally Posted by irish44j
It's not that the car necessarily feels slower, but you can feel the weight distro down low IMO. Oddly, with the cross-bracing off I don't feel any extra "weight" now.
Maybe it's mental, maybe it isn't
Maybe it's mental, maybe it isn't
05-12-2007, 07:48 PM
#28
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Originally Posted by bigEL
One of the first reviews I ever read on this site was of the 1st gen WSP SFCs. The guy (I think his name was "VMax" or something like that) said that Stage II and III didn't make any difference. He also said the ride was just as flat in the curves, but much smoother after he took off his RSB. I plan to try if/when I ever get my SFCs installed.
05-12-2007, 08:49 PM
#29
Dave B. the non-parts guy said the same thing about the WSP SFCs (that the stage 1 rails made a huge difference and the cross bracing made little to no difference). I suspect if the cross-bracing were completely welded it would eliminate the play and make a significant difference.
Perhaps the cross-bracing has more of an effect on surfaces where the left and right wheels are doing different things, such as potholes and taking speedbumps and driveways at an angle, and high-speed turns.
Perhaps the cross-bracing has more of an effect on surfaces where the left and right wheels are doing different things, such as potholes and taking speedbumps and driveways at an angle, and high-speed turns.
05-12-2007, 11:10 PM
#30
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Originally Posted by irish44j
yup, he was one of the local guys in the DC area. He had very few mods besides the SFCs, oddly enough.
05-13-2007, 07:22 AM
#31
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Originally Posted by bigEL
I found it sad how he started several thread talking about how awesome SFCs were and asking if anyone else had gotten them. All he ever got back were some crickets chirping. I don't think I saw many posts from his after that. Fast forward a couple year and every new SFC thread gets bombarded with tons of questions and feedback. Dude was obviously ahead of his time.
I know I tried on 4 different occasions to get the WS SFCs, but Dallas always would say "maybe next month" and then 2 months later I would call and he would say "in a few weeks" and so on...
05-13-2007, 10:04 AM
#32
Originally Posted by irish44j
I think there were people interested back then, but the fact that WS was making them on-again-off-again and wasn't known for their reliability probably turned alot of people off.
I know I tried on 4 different occasions to get the WS SFCs, but Dallas always would say "maybe next month" and then 2 months later I would call and he would say "in a few weeks" and so on...
I know I tried on 4 different occasions to get the WS SFCs, but Dallas always would say "maybe next month" and then 2 months later I would call and he would say "in a few weeks" and so on...
05-14-2007, 09:23 AM
#33
Irish has always said his setup with eibach/illumina wasn't as harsh as others claimed. Maybe his chassis is already pretty stiff. I know my 4th gen with lots of miles under it's belt, rides pretty stiff..and would benefit greatly from the SFC's. I plan on installing just the rails since I may have to custom make mine.
05-14-2007, 03:33 PM
#34
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Actually, the more I have the SFCs on, the more I notice what a great upgrade they are. Spend about 2 hours driving around with the wife on the woodsy/country roads on the outskirts of the county and the handling on the bumpy, uneven roads is really improved vs. without them.
Also got to test them out on the garbage roads and highways on my commute today, and the roads feel much less harsh...
Also got to test them out on the garbage roads and highways on my commute today, and the roads feel much less harsh...
05-14-2007, 03:46 PM
#35
Originally Posted by irish44j
Actually, the more I have the SFCs on, the more I notice what a great upgrade they are. Spend about 2 hours driving around with the wife on the woodsy/country roads on the outskirts of the county and the handling on the bumpy, uneven roads is really improved vs. without them.
Also got to test them out on the garbage roads and highways on my commute today, and the roads feel much less harsh...
Also got to test them out on the garbage roads and highways on my commute today, and the roads feel much less harsh...
or is that improvement from the side pieces? if so, i might just get those.
05-14-2007, 04:34 PM
#36
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Originally Posted by soonerfan
did you put the cross pieces back on?
or is that improvement from the side pieces? if so, i might just get those.
or is that improvement from the side pieces? if so, i might just get those.
05-14-2007, 04:36 PM
#37
Originally Posted by irish44j
I'm going to get a modified center piece fabricated for better clearance. Probably next week when I get back from Charleston. Potomac Steel does all kinds of nice metal work, and they're dirt cheap.
is there a benefit from having just the side pieces?
05-14-2007, 05:45 PM
#38
Originally Posted by soonerfan
you didnt answer my question.
is there a benefit from having just the side pieces?
is there a benefit from having just the side pieces?
05-14-2007, 05:51 PM
#39
Originally Posted by PandaXpress
probably...i mean structural integrity is maintained...seems that the middle piece is off due to ground clearance? Irish can you confirm this?
i was just wondering if it would be worth getting just the side pieces.
05-14-2007, 06:09 PM
#40
Originally Posted by soonerfan
i know why its off...i helped remove it (ok, i let him use my parking spot and i watched)
i was just wondering if it would be worth getting just the side pieces.
i was just wondering if it would be worth getting just the side pieces.