DO NOT CLEAN 02/03 Thottle Body
05-09-2007, 10:22 AM
#1
DO NOT CLEAN 02/03 Thottle Body
Cliff notes: Do not clean the "drive by wire" throttle body because it could end up costing you a lot of money.
I made the mistake of cleaning the TB (and moving the plate) and afterwards the idle was messed up (it was high and erratic). I tried the throttle position relearning procedures (for the TB) to no avail. I went to the dealership for them to do the relearning procedure to the ECU ($98) and they werent able to do it because of the erratic idle. I had to replace the TB assembly which cost around $300 (I talked my way down from over $400). The relearning procedure still wouldnt take because of the erratic idle and a cylinder misfire code (from a preexisting coil problem). I ordered all 6 coils from daveb ($380) and installed them.
I went back to the dealership this morning and even though the idle is better with the new coils, the procedure still wouldnt take. The service manager decided that there is actually a problem with the ECU. Since the throttle was messed up, to much power was going to the part of the ECU that processes the idle/throttle and burned out a circuit preventing it from accepting the relearn. They ordered a new ECU that (thank god!) is being covered by the emissions warranty.
All of this because I cleaned the TB.
MODS: Please make this a sticky or add the link to a preexisting sticky
I made the mistake of cleaning the TB (and moving the plate) and afterwards the idle was messed up (it was high and erratic). I tried the throttle position relearning procedures (for the TB) to no avail. I went to the dealership for them to do the relearning procedure to the ECU ($98) and they werent able to do it because of the erratic idle. I had to replace the TB assembly which cost around $300 (I talked my way down from over $400). The relearning procedure still wouldnt take because of the erratic idle and a cylinder misfire code (from a preexisting coil problem). I ordered all 6 coils from daveb ($380) and installed them.
I went back to the dealership this morning and even though the idle is better with the new coils, the procedure still wouldnt take. The service manager decided that there is actually a problem with the ECU. Since the throttle was messed up, to much power was going to the part of the ECU that processes the idle/throttle and burned out a circuit preventing it from accepting the relearn. They ordered a new ECU that (thank god!) is being covered by the emissions warranty.
All of this because I cleaned the TB.
MODS: Please make this a sticky or add the link to a preexisting sticky
05-09-2007, 11:02 AM
#4
Will this happen / is this a concern if you were to just remove the TB and not move the plate? I've not seen it happen but some may be concerned that it could move on its own when you remove it from the IM.
Im surprised your dealer didn't charge you for a new ECU.
05-09-2007, 11:13 AM
#7
Sexier Than Simpson
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Buffalo/Alden, NY
Posts: 1,683
I am installing my Berk intake tonight and I was planning on spraying TB cleaner but NOT touching this plate 
. It appears from multiple posts that this should be okay as long as I do not move the plate. Will the plate move by the pressure of the spray?
. It appears from multiple posts that this should be okay as long as I do not move the plate. Will the plate move by the pressure of the spray?
05-09-2007, 11:17 AM
#8
Damn guess I was lucky! But I won't be messing with the TB anymore. Maybe as they said above just clean the outside and not move the plate.
Sorry to hear that happened man that's a LOT of $$ that could've gone into some nice mods!
Sorry to hear that happened man that's a LOT of $$ that could've gone into some nice mods!
05-09-2007, 11:24 AM
#9
Originally Posted by soonerfan
Since the throttle was messed up, to much power was going to the part of the ECU that processes the idle/throttle and burned out a circuit preventing it from accepting the relearn.
Also, i think the cause of this issue and proper fix should be confirmed before this is added to any sticky.
05-09-2007, 11:43 AM
#10
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Leicester, Ma
Posts: 1,124
sooner, I did this as well a few months ago. Try some TB cleaner and wammo, my SES light came on, it idled higher, acted really wierd. The relearn did not take and just a big PIA. Also as i learned from my father who is a mechanic is that the TB does not need to be cleaned as no fuel, only air goes thru this area. So tb wouldnt help its just a ploy to make a profit. He stated useing Fuel Injector cleaner that goes in the tank is better. To my advantage they did the relearn for me for 90 bucks since my father deals with this particular dealership. The shop manager stated also if it didnt work it is the ECU that got burnt. So spending money on coils and a new TB prob wasnt needed. I love how these dealerships try to rape their customers. Also on a note while here is the seafoam thing is just the seafoam burning off, it really doenst do anything. Take off a head and youll see it is just as carbon filled after like it was before.
05-09-2007, 11:45 AM
#11
Originally Posted by nismology
That's all the info they give you? Did they confirm this by testing the voltage values at the appropriate ECU pins? I find this VERY hard to believe.
Also, i think the cause of this issue and proper fix should be confirmed before this is added to any sticky.
Also, i think the cause of this issue and proper fix should be confirmed before this is added to any sticky.
I clean mine all the time
sooner, did you do what I have stated time and time again works for me? It's not in your 'I did this items.
The last time I had throttle issues it was due to wiring mishaps w/ SAFCII, and using data scanning software, I was able to pinpoint the problem. Using live feed, I monitored APPS 1&2, and TPS 1&2. A problem will exist if either 4 of those sensors sends out an erratic (not within spec) signal.
The last time I cleaned my TB, prior to SAFC mishap, I let the car sit for 35 hours w/ the negative terminal disconnected, and it was fine after that and an IAVL.
05-09-2007, 11:46 AM
#12
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Leicester, Ma
Posts: 1,124
Originally Posted by nismology
That's all the info they give you? Did they confirm this by testing the voltage values at the appropriate ECU pins? I find this VERY hard to believe.
Also, i think the cause of this issue and proper fix should be confirmed before this is added to any sticky.
Also, i think the cause of this issue and proper fix should be confirmed before this is added to any sticky.
They wont be able to test the ECU as it will be burnt. So needing a new ECU. Not all will have this happen as i didnt burn my ECU. They just put the scanner on, reflashed the ECU and it took. If it didnt take then a new ECU would be needed but as far as i was told this is covered under ..cant remember what he called it but it was covered up to like 80k miles. SO i wouldnt have had to spend dough on the ECU. I also did the misnomers such as leave the car sit with the cable disc. for 35 or 45 or whatever hours...nothing. I tried the throttle reposition thingy and nada, unfortunately fooling with these cars can bring very high prices to pay
PS: Nmex, nice avatar.
05-09-2007, 11:57 AM
#13
Originally Posted by jeff5347
They wont be able to test the ECU as it will be burnt.
05-09-2007, 12:20 PM
#14
Originally Posted by jeff5347
sooner, I did this as well a few months ago. Try some TB cleaner and wammo, my SES light came on, it idled higher, acted really wierd. The relearn did not take and just a big PIA. Also as i learned from my father who is a mechanic is that the TB does not need to be cleaned as no fuel, only air goes thru this area. So tb wouldnt help its just a ploy to make a profit. He stated useing Fuel Injector cleaner that goes in the tank is better. To my advantage they did the relearn for me for 90 bucks since my father deals with this particular dealership. The shop manager stated also if it didnt work it is the ECU that got burnt. So spending money on coils and a new TB prob wasnt needed. I love how these dealerships try to rape their customers. Also on a note while here is the seafoam thing is just the seafoam burning off, it really doenst do anything. Take off a head and youll see it is just as carbon filled after like it was before.
05-09-2007, 01:17 PM
#15
Originally Posted by jeff5347
They wont be able to test the ECU as it will be burnt.
Taken directly from the 2002 Fail-safe Chart:
Originally Posted by FSM
P0221, P0222,
P0223, P1223,
P1224
Throttle position sensor The ECM controls the electric throttle control actuator in regulating the throttle
opening in order for the idle position to be within +10 degrees.
The ECM regulates an opening speed of approx. 5 seconds to an opening of 10
degrees. So, the acceleration will be poor.
P0226, P0227,
P0228, P1227,
P1228
Accelerator pedal position
sensor
The ECM controls the electric throttle control actuator in regulating the throttle
opening in order for the idle position to be within +10 degrees.
The ECM regulates an opening speed of approx. 5 seconds to an opening of 10
degrees. So, the acceleration will be poor.
P1121 Electric throttle control
actuator
(ECM detect the throttle
valve is stuck open.)
While the vehicle is driving, it slows down gradually by fuel cut. After the vehicle
stops, the engine stalls.
The engine can restart in “N” or “P” position, and engine speed will not exceed
1,000 rpm or more.
P1122 Electric throttle control function
ECM stops the electric throttle control actuator control, throttle valve is maintained
at a fixed opening (approx. 5 degrees) by the return spring.
P1126 Throttle control relay ECM stops the electric throttle control actuator control, throttle valve is maintained
at a fixed opening (approx. 5 degrees) by the return spring.
P0223, P1223,
P1224
Throttle position sensor The ECM controls the electric throttle control actuator in regulating the throttle
opening in order for the idle position to be within +10 degrees.
The ECM regulates an opening speed of approx. 5 seconds to an opening of 10
degrees. So, the acceleration will be poor.
P0226, P0227,
P0228, P1227,
P1228
Accelerator pedal position
sensor
The ECM controls the electric throttle control actuator in regulating the throttle
opening in order for the idle position to be within +10 degrees.
The ECM regulates an opening speed of approx. 5 seconds to an opening of 10
degrees. So, the acceleration will be poor.
P1121 Electric throttle control
actuator
(ECM detect the throttle
valve is stuck open.)
While the vehicle is driving, it slows down gradually by fuel cut. After the vehicle
stops, the engine stalls.
The engine can restart in “N” or “P” position, and engine speed will not exceed
1,000 rpm or more.
P1122 Electric throttle control function
ECM stops the electric throttle control actuator control, throttle valve is maintained
at a fixed opening (approx. 5 degrees) by the return spring.
P1126 Throttle control relay ECM stops the electric throttle control actuator control, throttle valve is maintained
at a fixed opening (approx. 5 degrees) by the return spring.
05-09-2007, 01:18 PM
#16
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Leicester, Ma
Posts: 1,124
Originally Posted by brusk
Well that's not quite true is it. Look at a new TB and look at an old one. You'll see the diff. Remember it sucks up plenty of nasty through the PCV that's gets put everywhere. Not sure about nissan but dodge still does TB cleanings and intake services even with there newer cars with or without the electronic TB's. The best thing to keep your intake, ports, valves and cc is to drive it like you stole it. Fuel injector cleaner helps too.
05-09-2007, 01:22 PM
#18
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Leicester, Ma
Posts: 1,124
Originally Posted by nismology
Erratic idle ≠ inoperative ECU. To the contrary, the fact that he was able to drive it to the dealer with no drivability issues proves that the throttle motor control was indeed functional.
Taken directly from the 2002 Fail-safe Chart:
Taken directly from the 2002 Fail-safe Chart:
Let me rephrase. They will be able t osee what the problem is.
Is it the TB, is it the coils, is it the ECU. They will be able to test for these but it will have to be tested t osee what parts need to be replaced. As in sooners case he changed coils and such and came to find it is a bad ECU. In my case i did not need a new ECU as the reflash took.
05-09-2007, 01:25 PM
#19
Originally Posted by jeff5347
Let me rephrase. They will be able t osee what the problem is.
Is it the TB, is it the coils, is it the ECU. They will be able to test for these but it will have to be tested t osee what parts need to be replaced. As in sooners case he changed coils and such and came to find it is a bad ECU. In my case i did not need a new ECU as the reflash took.
Is it the TB, is it the coils, is it the ECU. They will be able to test for these but it will have to be tested t osee what parts need to be replaced. As in sooners case he changed coils and such and came to find it is a bad ECU. In my case i did not need a new ECU as the reflash took.
05-09-2007, 01:36 PM
#20
Every engine I or my partner (he's the dodge mechanic) have torn apart that we drove like hell was completely spotless. His 360 Dakota R/T with 80K miles on it still looked brand new. Just keep it tuned and oil changed. I've never broken anything other than transmission stuff due to ragging on the car basically on a daily basis. This includes toyota's, hondas, dodges, and a saturn. As for the TB not sure on the max but the 350Z is almost identical to the Hemi's. I'm not saying it doesn't do something bad but it shouldn't its a sealed unit. I'm sprayed the crap out of mine about a month ago and had to problems at all. As for the TB never getting dirty, same design all almost every car since they went EFI then how did all those other cars get gunked up, i've owned several cars that were babied before I bought them and they were so bad that the throttle plate was sticking due to the crap on them.
05-09-2007, 02:03 PM
#21
I read somewhere in an FAQ long ago never to touch the plate on the drive-by-wire throttle bodies. I've cleaned mine three times without touching the plate and haven't had any problems except the first time it triggered the SES light. I reset it and the code never returned. If you want the butterfly plate to open safely, you gotta have someone step on the gas pedal with the car running, and then spray the TB cleaner. It has worked for me every time.
05-09-2007, 02:17 PM
#22
Originally Posted by madmxx
you gotta have someone step on the gas pedal with the car running,
05-09-2007, 03:03 PM
#23
Originally Posted by nismology
That's all the info they give you? Did they confirm this by testing the voltage values at the appropriate ECU pins? I find this VERY hard to believe.
Also, i think the cause of this issue and proper fix should be confirmed before this is added to any sticky.
Also, i think the cause of this issue and proper fix should be confirmed before this is added to any sticky.
05-09-2007, 03:08 PM
#25
Originally Posted by nismology
And just so we're all on the same page here........which procedure wouldn't take, exactly?
the procedure to tell the ECU the same thing didnt take.
basically, the TB knows that its in the right place. the ECU has a stored value of where the TB should be. the two values arent matching so the ECU keeps trying to correct the idle (increases it) and then the TB tries to fix it (lowers it).
am i understanding this correctly?
05-09-2007, 03:31 PM
#26
Originally Posted by jeff5347
Really, it is quite true. You may see "some" difference such as a shinier TB but it is not all that dirty. The only thing cleaner really helps on is carbs where the gas is actually in the throttle bores. Carbs get very dirty and get a lot of carbon build up. Nissan isnt a dodge and as Sooner and myself and others have found out, TB cleaner will reak havoc and cause unwanted problems such as the SES light and idle. Also when you say drive it like you stole it you have a chance of breakingh **** loose and causing havoc. Take for instance your valves. They build up carbon and junk. loosen some of those specs and then they get into the cylinder, dont burn and scuff or scratch the cylinder walls causing oil burning issues and such. This is a drastic case but none the less very plausable.
05-09-2007, 04:24 PM
#27
Originally Posted by Torgus
funny TB cleaner worked great on my 4th gen...oh and the 3rd gen too...
This is the 5th gen forums right?
Originally Posted by soonerfan
Cliff notes: Do not clean the "drive by wire" throttle body
05-09-2007, 04:32 PM
#28
he was saying it doesn't do anything in his post. i was proving him wrong. so don't touch the damn plate it's not rocket science. if you are worried about the possible consequences of your actions then don't do it. i just did mine(maf and TB) in between the posts today because this thread made me want to do it...car seems fine to me drives like normal.
This is the maxima.org forums right?
show some love.
This is the maxima.org forums right?
show some love.
05-09-2007, 04:45 PM
#29
That same thing happend to me when my coils when bad. I replaced them and i figure since i was doing something to the car i went and cleaned the throtle body and it got ****ed up. The dealer also tried the learning thing with the consult 2 and nothing dealer said the TB got messed.
I ended getting a new tb, i pay $800 with labor.
Ever since i dont touch my tb.
Oh and i got 3.0.
I ended getting a new tb, i pay $800 with labor.
Ever since i dont touch my tb.
Oh and i got 3.0.
05-09-2007, 05:04 PM
#30
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 210
Originally Posted by Torgus
funny TB cleaner worked great on my 4th gen...oh and the 3rd gen too...
05-09-2007, 05:28 PM
#32
Originally Posted by soonerfan
the throttle position sensor relearning procedures that i did myself (pushing the gas pedal 5 times, etc, etc, to tell the TB motor where to be) took.
the procedure to tell the ECU the same thing didnt take.
basically, the TB knows that its in the right place. the ECU has a stored value of where the TB should be. the two values arent matching so the ECU keeps trying to correct the idle (increases it) and then the TB tries to fix it (lowers it).
am i understanding this correctly?
the procedure to tell the ECU the same thing didnt take.
basically, the TB knows that its in the right place. the ECU has a stored value of where the TB should be. the two values arent matching so the ECU keeps trying to correct the idle (increases it) and then the TB tries to fix it (lowers it).
am i understanding this correctly?
05-09-2007, 05:47 PM
#33
Originally Posted by Torgus
show some love.
I'm show'n!My personal experience.
I cleaned my TB and I also moved the butterfly back and forth quite a few times. My results. Eratic idle. I could not get the ecu to take any relearn procedures. Took it to the dealer and they did the whole nine yards for me. I think it was around $65 and 45 mins or so later I was on my way.
I really think it is hit and miss with the type of damage that can occur with these cars. Mine was one of the "lucky" ones, if there is such a thing.
05-09-2007, 06:16 PM
#35
Originally Posted by NmexMAX
Doesn't have to be running for ther AT's. It must be in a drive gear and the key must be in the "ON" position though. Not sure for the MT's, but I'm sure it's something similar, i.e. clutch in &/or in a drive gear and key in the "ON" position.
05-09-2007, 06:53 PM
#37
Originally Posted by nismology
This is too vague. Which procedures did you do and in what sequence?
The dealer was able to get it to take using the Consult II. That's all that matters.
Anyhow...
I tried all of the following and even though 3 of the 4 took the IAVL Procedure did not. At the time, I had no idea what was causing the issue. So all were attempted:
ECU Reset Procedure - Easy
Accelerator Pedal Release Position Procedure - Easy
Throttle Valve Closed Position Procedure - Easy
IAVL Procedure - Almost identical to the ECU Reset, but could not get it to take.
05-09-2007, 07:41 PM
#38
Originally Posted by nismology
The test you did was the Idle air volume learn. That lets the ECU know how much it should open up the the throttle plate for the idle to be within specification. However, this test is useless unless you tell the ECU exactly where the throttle plate is at rest, aka throttle valve closed position learning. You must do the latter BEFORE the idle air volume learn. I have a feeling that unless you do them right after each other, things go screwy.
the problem is...i did the following procedures (in that order) right after i cleaned the TB and the idle was still messed up:
Accelerator Pedal Released Position Learning Procedure
Throttle Valve Closed Position Learning Procedure
Idle Air Volume Learning Procedure
05-10-2007, 10:16 AM
#39
Supporting Maxima.org Member
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 66
Originally Posted by soonerfan
Cliff notes: Do not clean the "drive by wire" throttle body because it could end up costing you a lot of money.
I made the mistake of cleaning the TB (and moving the plate) and afterwards the idle was messed up (it was high and erratic). I tried the throttle position relearning procedures (for the TB) to no avail. I went to the dealership for them to do the relearning procedure to the ECU ($98) and they werent able to do it because of the erratic idle. I had to replace the TB assembly which cost around $300 (I talked my way down from over $400). The relearning procedure still wouldnt take because of the erratic idle and a cylinder misfire code (from a preexisting coil problem). I ordered all 6 coils from daveb ($380) and installed them.
I went back to the dealership this morning and even though the idle is better with the new coils, the procedure still wouldnt take. The service manager decided that there is actually a problem with the ECU. Since the throttle was messed up, to much power was going to the part of the ECU that processes the idle/throttle and burned out a circuit preventing it from accepting the relearn. They ordered a new ECU that (thank god!) is being covered by the emissions warranty.
All of this because I cleaned the TB.
MODS: Please make this a sticky or add the link to a preexisting sticky
I made the mistake of cleaning the TB (and moving the plate) and afterwards the idle was messed up (it was high and erratic). I tried the throttle position relearning procedures (for the TB) to no avail. I went to the dealership for them to do the relearning procedure to the ECU ($98) and they werent able to do it because of the erratic idle. I had to replace the TB assembly which cost around $300 (I talked my way down from over $400). The relearning procedure still wouldnt take because of the erratic idle and a cylinder misfire code (from a preexisting coil problem). I ordered all 6 coils from daveb ($380) and installed them.
I went back to the dealership this morning and even though the idle is better with the new coils, the procedure still wouldnt take. The service manager decided that there is actually a problem with the ECU. Since the throttle was messed up, to much power was going to the part of the ECU that processes the idle/throttle and burned out a circuit preventing it from accepting the relearn. They ordered a new ECU that (thank god!) is being covered by the emissions warranty.
All of this because I cleaned the TB.
MODS: Please make this a sticky or add the link to a preexisting sticky
....thats a shame
05-10-2007, 07:53 PM
#40
Junior Member
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 21
okay...how bout this for a turn...i had an minor idle issue that i discussed on the newbie forum...my car would idle around 500 instead of 700-750 causing an annoying minor shake at red lights...i cleaned my TB w/ out touching the butterfly as recommended by lao2max and it has helped, no codes or issues, however i tried to do the ecu reset multiple times and cant get it to respond...it still idles low, around 600, the rumble is better but still there. is there a reason my car won't respond to the procedures...or hopefully not...is this a sign that somthin's about to crap out...? is it possible that the reset will fix the issue? the car is running great otherwise...based on what im reading here it may be worth while jus to cut my losses leave it the heck alone...