Plenum Spacer pulled 3 times on Dyno FYI
05-08-2006, 05:52 PM
#82
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I'm thinking the spacer would go below the lower plenum thus lifting the plenum and intake manifold. What if you just took another plenum and milled it down to like oh lets say .5 of and inch?? Wouldn't that be considered a spacer. Also how about honing the plenum or getting it ceramicly coated??
05-08-2006, 06:31 PM
#83
Originally Posted by rbrown81
Ohhhhh Barc! I like your questions! I didnt even think of the lower plenum staying hotter, but yes it does make perfect sense.
Decreasing upper intake temperatures is bound to be a good thing on the longevity of the component, everything else aside. But, the length of time air "spends" in the chamber is minimal... less than 1/8th of a second at WOT and less than a second even at idle. How then does the temperature of the plenum make any difference? The intake pathway isn't going to be that much colder (while it may be somewhat colder since the TB is going to be cooler) and the amount of time the air spends in the chamber remains the same. Even considering that, the air isn't going to magically decrease in temperature or heat up more rapidly simply because the pathway it is going through is cooler. It will still heat at the same rate and that rate isn't sufficient to have an increase beyond the normal increase without the spacer.
And please don't say it is because the air is "denser." Please don't say that... The argument will go something like this: How the hell will air be any denser when it is the same temperature coming in from the outside? Does the decrease in intake temperature decrease the atmospheric temperature or increase the atmospheric pressure? Either way, please send one here so it will cool off during the summer or I can make it rain on demand. I realize that claim has not been made so please don't make it.
Anyway, my question still stands... Thanks!
05-08-2006, 07:40 PM
#84
Originally Posted by Barc
That's only part of the problem I have with this. The science behind it doesn't jive when you start looking at it individually.
Decreasing upper intake temperatures is bound to be a good thing on the longevity of the component, everything else aside. But, the length of time air "spends" in the chamber is minimal... less than 1/8th of a second at WOT and less than a second even at idle. How then does the temperature of the plenum make any difference? The intake pathway isn't going to be that much colder (while it may be somewhat colder since the TB is going to be cooler) and the amount of time the air spends in the chamber remains the same. Even considering that, the air isn't going to magically decrease in temperature or heat up more rapidly simply because the pathway it is going through is cooler. It will still heat at the same rate and that rate isn't sufficient to have an increase beyond the normal increase without the spacer.
And please don't say it is because the air is "denser." Please don't say that... The argument will go something like this: How the hell will air be any denser when it is the same temperature coming in from the outside? Does the decrease in intake temperature decrease the atmospheric temperature or increase the atmospheric pressure? Either way, please send one here so it will cool off during the summer or I can make it rain on demand. I realize that claim has not been made so please don't make it.
Anyway, my question still stands... Thanks!
Decreasing upper intake temperatures is bound to be a good thing on the longevity of the component, everything else aside. But, the length of time air "spends" in the chamber is minimal... less than 1/8th of a second at WOT and less than a second even at idle. How then does the temperature of the plenum make any difference? The intake pathway isn't going to be that much colder (while it may be somewhat colder since the TB is going to be cooler) and the amount of time the air spends in the chamber remains the same. Even considering that, the air isn't going to magically decrease in temperature or heat up more rapidly simply because the pathway it is going through is cooler. It will still heat at the same rate and that rate isn't sufficient to have an increase beyond the normal increase without the spacer.
And please don't say it is because the air is "denser." Please don't say that... The argument will go something like this: How the hell will air be any denser when it is the same temperature coming in from the outside? Does the decrease in intake temperature decrease the atmospheric temperature or increase the atmospheric pressure? Either way, please send one here so it will cool off during the summer or I can make it rain on demand. I realize that claim has not been made so please don't make it.
Anyway, my question still stands... Thanks!
The whole plenum spacer idea comes from the 350z/G35 Engine. Here, the plenum spacer gives a gain of 7-11whp because the front 2 cylinders are starved of air by the intake manifolds sloping design. This factor does not apply to our cars, so I would be interested to see if this makes any difference at all.
05-08-2006, 08:39 PM
#85
Well basically, this should go as a lesson to everyone to not post up anything until you are fully ready to back up info. This is not directed to anyone or I35sleeper. Just a general statement so that people won't get attacked or bashed in the forums. But the vets know this and so should the noobs now.
05-08-2006, 09:57 PM
#87
Barc, I'm not sure your reasoning is sound. The density and specific heat capacity of alumnium are far greater than air. So it's storing a lot of heat and giving it off to the intake air. You can argue that at WOT, air spends less than 1/8 second in the intake manifold but that's immaterial; what matters is the total amount of heat absorbed by the intake air at any throttle position. The only question is to what degree the cooler intake manifold affects the air temp. It may be insignificant, it may not.
This statement seems patently false to me. 
That's like saying everything in my house isn't going to "magically" decrease in temperature if I install a little air conditioner.
Even considering that, the air isn't going to magically decrease in temperature or heat up more rapidly simply because the pathway it is going through is cooler.
That's like saying everything in my house isn't going to "magically" decrease in temperature if I install a little air conditioner.
05-09-2006, 04:03 AM
#88
Ok, lets try it this way. You have a block of red hot steel. You put a cold block of steel on top of it. What happens to the cold block? It sucks the heat away from the red hot block and retains it. So eventually both will be the same temperature. Now same scenario. But between the red hot block and the cold block you put a thermal insulator. The top block stays cold because it is not touching the red hot block. In the case of the 5.5 gen the plenum sucks the heat from the engine like a cpu heatsink. (because it is aluminum) . It doesn't have thousands of fins like your cpu heatsink so it stays hot, for a long time. So it heats up the cold air coming into the engine. The colder the air the better the atomization of the fuel, the more horsepower (i think 1 degree = 1/2 horse ) if you don't beleive me do a search.
05-09-2006, 04:06 AM
#89
Originally Posted by VQuick
Barc, I'm not sure your reasoning is sound. The density and specific heat capacity of alumnium are far greater than air. So it's storing a lot of heat and giving it off to the intake air. You can argue that at WOT, air spends less than 1/8 second in the intake manifold but that's immaterial; what matters is the total amount of heat absorbed by the intake air at any throttle position. The only question is to what degree the cooler intake manifold affects the air temp. It may be insignificant, it may not.
This statement seems patently false to me. That's like saying everything in my house isn't going to "magically" decrease in temperature if I install a little air conditioner.
This statement seems patently false to me.
That's like saying everything in my house isn't going to "magically" decrease in temperature if I install a little air conditioner.Yes, the specific heat is greater but air is not absorbing it any quicker at a high or low temperature. Given the amount of time it spends in the intake plenum, whether spaced or not, the air does not have enough time to heat beyond any point it normally would have reached so my arguement that the amount of time it spends in the chamber IS material. If this was such an important factor, don't you think your car would permanently be pinging after it warms up due to detonation now since the intake is so hot? It doesn't, does it? Why? (And this is why my arguement that it spends less than 1/8th of a second inside the chamber is material) Because the air is not heating up to the temperature of the intake, nor anything close. Why? Because its rate of thermal intake is much less than that of aluminium, water, or anything else inside that engine bay, other than maybe graphite or cotton. It is used as an insulator in other applications it is such a poor conductor.
Before you say that things aren't material or things seem false, do the research yourself. Things can seem vastly different than how they actually are... Thanks for the response, however. At least someone is attempting to explain this. The research is out there on this idea, and I'm not talking "paid" research...
05-09-2006, 04:52 AM
#90
Originally Posted by knight_yyz
Ok, lets try it this way. You have a block of red hot steel. You put a cold block of steel on top of it. What happens to the cold block? It sucks the heat away from the red hot block and retains it. So eventually both will be the same temperature. Now same scenario. But between the red hot block and the cold block you put a thermal insulator. The top block stays cold because it is not touching the red hot block. In the case of the 5.5 gen the plenum sucks the heat from the engine like a cpu heatsink. (because it is aluminum) . It doesn't have thousands of fins like your cpu heatsink so it stays hot, for a long time. So it heats up the cold air coming into the engine. The colder the air the better the atomization of the fuel, the more horsepower (i think 1 degree = 1/2 horse ) if you don't beleive me do a search.
Cold air / more dense air does increase horsepower seen on a dyno (not 1 degree = 1/2 HP, let's not fall into that trap). I never said it wouldn't. What I am saying is that the air inside the plenum isn't going to be any hotter with the spacer or without it due to the fact that it is staying inside the plenum for less than an 1/8th of a second and the fact that the lower intake is still just as hot (actually, it is hotter) as it was prior to installation. Air still must pass over the hot lower intake, across the hot head, and past the hot intake valves.
The reason these work in certain situations, is the fact that cylinders were starved of air due to poor design of the intake plenum itself. It isn't because the charge air is cooler.
But, let's say for arguments sake, that the intake air remains 2 degrees cooler since we have some seriously conductive air... and let's say, for arguments sake, that 1 degree does = 1/2 HP. 1 HP is your net gain in this situation.
Please, by all means, look up the conductivity of air at STP. Now imagine that air is flowing at 500 cfm through a space of less than 1 cf. The air can't physically absorb the heat at any faster rate. And since, all things staying the same, the air doesn't have time to absorb any more (or less) heat than it normally does with or without the spacer, the temperature of the air flowing through our system remains the same.
05-09-2006, 05:00 AM
#91
Originally Posted by rbrown81
The whole plenum spacer idea comes from the 350z/G35 Engine. Here, the plenum spacer gives a gain of 7-11whp because the front 2 cylinders are starved of air by the intake manifolds sloping design. This factor does not apply to our cars, so I would be interested to see if this makes any difference at all.
I'll try and shutup for a while now. There are folks who know more about these things than myself and I never intended to become a one man army of science. I am sure that someone on the org knows how this all works and can better explain it than myself.
05-09-2006, 06:45 AM
#92
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THIS is EXACTLY what I came to the board for!!! Barc, I appreciate your comments and questions, because it actually makes for an interesting debate here. First off I will begin by saying this...the Dyno run files will be posted, NOT to shut anyone up, but simply to show the gains that I received from the spacer. Knight and I have been talking back and forth and I am going to try to work with him over cutting a few out from various materials because I do NOT have access to a laser cutter as he does. He was nice enough to offer and not be so dependent on the actual dynos, rather help me find a way to make them work and better the design. There are things that need to be worked out on this one. I am very focused on getting this done as quickly as possible here for everyone's benefit, but will not compromise the design on this to please the audience. I would much rather the board be upset at me and have a product that truly works after various testing.
NOW,
Barc,
You seem very knowledgable in the feild of thermal conductivity. SO I will ask you to look at the thermal conductivity WEIDEMANN FRANZ LAW. More fundamental questions arise when you examine the reasons for wide variations in thermal conductivity. Gases transfer heat by direct collisions between molecules, and as would be expected, their thermal conductivity is low compared to most solids since they are dilute media. Non-metallic solids transfer heat by lattice vibrations so that there is no net motion of the media as the energy propagates through. Such heat transfer is often described in terms of "phonons", quanta of lattice vibrations. Metals are much better thermal conductors than non-metals because the same mobile electrons which participate in electrical conduction also take part in the transfer of heat. Conceptually, the thermal conductivity can be thought of as the container for the medium-dependent properties which relate the rate of heat loss per unit area to the rate of change of temperature. Now in automobiles, we have to think of the above in opposite, due to the commonly known fact that a cooler engine compartment means higher horsepower.
Think of it like this....(and I have stated this before)....We all love when we get into the car on a cool summer morning or evening and start it up. The ENTIRE engine compartment is cool, and the car performs better correct?? Reason being..the entire compartment is not heated up yet. VERY simply put.
The purpose of the spacer is to create more room for the air to travel, becoming cooler at ACTUAL intake. It is also made of a material similiar to TYVEK.
The question was brought up earlier in the thread, I will enlighten. The relative horsepower calculation shows how air density alters the power output of a properly tuned engine. For example, at 85 deg F, 30.14 in-Hg barometer reading, 58 deg F dewpoint and 5000 ft altitude, the engine only produces about 81.1% of the rated horsepower.The atmospheric pressure, temperature and humidity all affect the density of the air. On a hot day, or at high altitude, or on a moist day, the air is less dense. A reduction in air density reduces the amount of oxygen available for combustion and therefore reduces the engine horsepower and torque.
So in light of everyone's question on how this works..I mean I know I am still a NEWBIE but take a look at my reply and if there are still any questions, email me directly. Blackfinny2002@yahoo.com
NOW,
Barc,
You seem very knowledgable in the feild of thermal conductivity. SO I will ask you to look at the thermal conductivity WEIDEMANN FRANZ LAW. More fundamental questions arise when you examine the reasons for wide variations in thermal conductivity. Gases transfer heat by direct collisions between molecules, and as would be expected, their thermal conductivity is low compared to most solids since they are dilute media. Non-metallic solids transfer heat by lattice vibrations so that there is no net motion of the media as the energy propagates through. Such heat transfer is often described in terms of "phonons", quanta of lattice vibrations. Metals are much better thermal conductors than non-metals because the same mobile electrons which participate in electrical conduction also take part in the transfer of heat. Conceptually, the thermal conductivity can be thought of as the container for the medium-dependent properties which relate the rate of heat loss per unit area to the rate of change of temperature. Now in automobiles, we have to think of the above in opposite, due to the commonly known fact that a cooler engine compartment means higher horsepower.
Think of it like this....(and I have stated this before)....We all love when we get into the car on a cool summer morning or evening and start it up. The ENTIRE engine compartment is cool, and the car performs better correct?? Reason being..the entire compartment is not heated up yet. VERY simply put.
The purpose of the spacer is to create more room for the air to travel, becoming cooler at ACTUAL intake. It is also made of a material similiar to TYVEK.
The question was brought up earlier in the thread, I will enlighten. The relative horsepower calculation shows how air density alters the power output of a properly tuned engine. For example, at 85 deg F, 30.14 in-Hg barometer reading, 58 deg F dewpoint and 5000 ft altitude, the engine only produces about 81.1% of the rated horsepower.The atmospheric pressure, temperature and humidity all affect the density of the air. On a hot day, or at high altitude, or on a moist day, the air is less dense. A reduction in air density reduces the amount of oxygen available for combustion and therefore reduces the engine horsepower and torque.
So in light of everyone's question on how this works..I mean I know I am still a NEWBIE but take a look at my reply and if there are still any questions, email me directly. Blackfinny2002@yahoo.com
05-09-2006, 06:52 AM
#93
Originally Posted by sleeperI35
First off I will begin by saying this...the Dyno run files will be posted,
Originally Posted by sleeperI35
I mean I know I am still a NEWBIE but take a look at my reply and if there are still any questions, email me directly. Blackfinny2002@yahoo.com
05-09-2006, 07:22 AM
#94
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Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 376
Epacy, timing is everything and I will post them once I have the final product under way, and the product that will sell will be the one that I post the results for. I apologize for the delay, you must be patient. I am alsod oing alot of other things as far as this is concerned. For those who are not that mechanically sound, I need an instruction manual to install the product. Working on putting the plenum bolt package together. Working on getting the correct materials mass produced. You must understand that there are alot of ingredients to bake this cake.
05-09-2006, 07:27 AM
#95
Originally Posted by sleeperI35
Epacy, timing is everything and I will post them once I have the final product under way,
Originally Posted by sleeperI35
You must understand that there are alot of ingredients to bake this cake.
05-09-2006, 07:36 AM
#96
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Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 376
You are 100% right Epacy and I do apologize. I am going to post them just be patient. I DID say I was going to post them last week, then got ridiculously busy with work. Again, they will be posted just be patient.
05-09-2006, 07:51 AM
#97
Originally Posted by sleeperI35
Barc,
You seem very knowledgable in the feild of thermal conductivity. SO I will ask you to look at the thermal conductivity WEIDEMANN FRANZ LAW. More fundamental questions arise when you examine the reasons for wide variations in thermal conductivity. Gases transfer heat by direct collisions between molecules, and as would be expected, their thermal conductivity is low compared to most solids since they are dilute media. Non-metallic solids transfer heat by lattice vibrations so that there is no net motion of the media as the energy propagates through. Such heat transfer is often described in terms of "phonons", quanta of lattice vibrations. Metals are much better thermal conductors than non-metals because the same mobile electrons which participate in electrical conduction also take part in the transfer of heat. Conceptually, the thermal conductivity can be thought of as the container for the medium-dependent properties which relate the rate of heat loss per unit area to the rate of change of temperature. Now in automobiles, we have to think of the above in opposite, due to the commonly known fact that a cooler engine compartment means higher horsepower.
Think of it like this....(and I have stated this before)....We all love when we get into the car on a cool summer morning or evening and start it up. The ENTIRE engine compartment is cool, and the car performs better correct?? Reason being..the entire compartment is not heated up yet. VERY simply put.
The purpose of the spacer is to create more room for the air to travel, becoming cooler at ACTUAL intake. It is also made of a material similiar to TYVEK.
You seem very knowledgable in the feild of thermal conductivity. SO I will ask you to look at the thermal conductivity WEIDEMANN FRANZ LAW. More fundamental questions arise when you examine the reasons for wide variations in thermal conductivity. Gases transfer heat by direct collisions between molecules, and as would be expected, their thermal conductivity is low compared to most solids since they are dilute media. Non-metallic solids transfer heat by lattice vibrations so that there is no net motion of the media as the energy propagates through. Such heat transfer is often described in terms of "phonons", quanta of lattice vibrations. Metals are much better thermal conductors than non-metals because the same mobile electrons which participate in electrical conduction also take part in the transfer of heat. Conceptually, the thermal conductivity can be thought of as the container for the medium-dependent properties which relate the rate of heat loss per unit area to the rate of change of temperature. Now in automobiles, we have to think of the above in opposite, due to the commonly known fact that a cooler engine compartment means higher horsepower.
Think of it like this....(and I have stated this before)....We all love when we get into the car on a cool summer morning or evening and start it up. The ENTIRE engine compartment is cool, and the car performs better correct?? Reason being..the entire compartment is not heated up yet. VERY simply put.
The purpose of the spacer is to create more room for the air to travel, becoming cooler at ACTUAL intake. It is also made of a material similiar to TYVEK.
Anyway, let me get this straight. You post the a reference Wiedemann-Franz law in a simple question of why the air is going to be cooler in a system of particles traveling at low speed? I ask that because we aren't dealing with atoms traveling at nearly the speed of light that are in an excited state, we are dealing with molecules traveling not even close to the speed of sound (but more on that in a moment). So, if you are saying that the conductivity of air is increased to such a degree that we now have to use obscene equations to notice the degree to which the air is cooler due to the surrounding media being proportionally cooler, then I would assume you should review the law yourself since, going by Wiedemann-Franz, you are dealing with heat transfer withing molecules dependant upon their molecular velocity, which is independant of their relative velocity!
Now, you go on to say that the purpose of the spacer is to create more room for air to travel becoming cooler... if the air is in the system for longer periods of time, how then does it become cooler? Wouldn't you logically think that it would get hotter? Since air heats at a given rate (and no faster, as we have already proven Wiedemann-Franz doesn't apply) and is spending now MORE time in the system, how then does it get cooler?
While I may not have your reasonings right entirely, I think you, yourself, don't understand them. Otherwise, you would not have posted something easily found on google as the reason as to why the spacer works and then gone on to say yet another reason as to why it works that contradicts the very thing that would have potentially helped... Air cannot heat any faster than it already does, hot IM or cold IM, the same amount of energy will be transferred provided the incoming air remains the same temperature and pressure. I readily admit that I hadn't seen the Wiedemann-Franz law since thermo in college and had to look it up but at least I understand it and am able to easily explain why it doesn't apply in this situation. All I want to know is, quite simply, so we can all understand, why does this spacer work? As you may or may not realize, BS will be analyzed and shown for what it is.
The last thing I want is to get into a pissing contest. I'm too old and I honestly don't care to. I don't want to see any of these guys get their hopes up and possibly lose their money due to bad reasoning and misinformation. My question still stands, otherwise. Thanks!
05-09-2006, 08:52 AM
#98
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Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 376
I realize that BS will be shown for what it is, but Barc, since you brought up a Google search on your reply to me, then I think that you should do one. Wiedemann-Franz Law can be understood by treating the electrons like a classical gas. I was using the example, since you understand conductivity in metals very well. The velocity of the air is not in question here, the temperature is. The heat transfer also is. As stated in my original goal, I am trying to lower the air intake temperature first and foremost. If I was trying to make the air travel faster, I would investigate a supercharger. To answer your question directly, (and we can debate all day), the distance the air has to travel internally will be effected minimally, but the temperature transfer between the Plenum and the intake manifold will be significantly decreased with a spacer. If is is not the case, then please explain why, because as tested the product does and will continue to do exactly that.
As quoted by you sir,
"Air cannot heat any faster than it already does, hot IM or cold IM, the same amount of energy will be transferred provided the incoming air remains the same temperature and pressure." AGAIN, 100% correct, BUT the air intake temperature CAN and WILL be lowered with a heat soaking agent...
Some of the materials that I have used are commonly used in other spacers. Away from the thermal conductivity discussion let me ask a common sense question again...we can go back to the discussion later.....
If this product has been dyno proven time and time again for VARIOUS other vehicles with the same TYPE plenum (aluminum or metal composite, E.G> Corvettes) then why would using a plenum spacer with this application be any different?
As quoted by you sir,
"Air cannot heat any faster than it already does, hot IM or cold IM, the same amount of energy will be transferred provided the incoming air remains the same temperature and pressure." AGAIN, 100% correct, BUT the air intake temperature CAN and WILL be lowered with a heat soaking agent...
Some of the materials that I have used are commonly used in other spacers. Away from the thermal conductivity discussion let me ask a common sense question again...we can go back to the discussion later.....
If this product has been dyno proven time and time again for VARIOUS other vehicles with the same TYPE plenum (aluminum or metal composite, E.G> Corvettes) then why would using a plenum spacer with this application be any different?
05-09-2006, 08:54 AM
#99
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Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 376
Also, Barc, no pissing contest at all. If I am proven wrong and this product does not work, then so be it. I am looking for questions like yours to be asked so it makes me think about how to better the product. There is never any offense taken to a good question, and yes I am still trying to figure out my wife as well. (much harder than the plenum spacer) Mechanics and Engineering are easier debated because they are what they are!!!
05-09-2006, 09:02 AM
#100
Hey Sleeper, how about you get off your 
and post the files. It would be quicker to post the files than write those long replies that you are doing, but it seems that you have time to write all those, even with your very busy work schedule.
and post the files. It would be quicker to post the files than write those long replies that you are doing, but it seems that you have time to write all those, even with your very busy work schedule.
05-09-2006, 09:45 AM
#101
Originally Posted by sleeperI35
I realize that BS will be shown for what it is, but Barc, since you brought up a Google search on your reply to me, then I think that you should do one. Wiedemann-Franz Law can be understood by treating the electrons like a classical gas. I was using the example, since you understand conductivity in metals very well. The velocity of the air is not in question here, the temperature is. The heat transfer also is. As stated in my original goal, I am trying to lower the air intake temperature first and foremost. If I was trying to make the air travel faster, I would investigate a supercharger. To answer your question directly, (and we can debate all day), the distance the air has to travel internally will be effected minimally, but the temperature transfer between the Plenum and the intake manifold will be significantly decreased with a spacer. If is is not the case, then please explain why, because as tested the product does and will continue to do exactly that.
As quoted by you sir,
"Air cannot heat any faster than it already does, hot IM or cold IM, the same amount of energy will be transferred provided the incoming air remains the same temperature and pressure." AGAIN, 100% correct, BUT the air intake temperature CAN and WILL be lowered with a heat soaking agent...
Some of the materials that I have used are commonly used in other spacers. Away from the thermal conductivity discussion let me ask a common sense question again...we can go back to the discussion later.....
If this product has been dyno proven time and time again for VARIOUS other vehicles with the same TYPE plenum (aluminum or metal composite, E.G> Corvettes) then why would using a plenum spacer with this application be any different?
As quoted by you sir,
"Air cannot heat any faster than it already does, hot IM or cold IM, the same amount of energy will be transferred provided the incoming air remains the same temperature and pressure." AGAIN, 100% correct, BUT the air intake temperature CAN and WILL be lowered with a heat soaking agent...
Some of the materials that I have used are commonly used in other spacers. Away from the thermal conductivity discussion let me ask a common sense question again...we can go back to the discussion later.....
If this product has been dyno proven time and time again for VARIOUS other vehicles with the same TYPE plenum (aluminum or metal composite, E.G> Corvettes) then why would using a plenum spacer with this application be any different?
I have no doubts that you mean well in all of this. However, I want to understand the "physics" behind it, and not just the standard line of "the upper IM is colder so the air passing through it is colder" since that isn't necessarily true. The reasoning you are giving is sound, provided we are dealing with a low volume over a longer period of time. However, the amount of volume, the size of the chamber, and the temperatures all lead me to point at the fact that the air will not be affected in a positive way. Will it have some effect, I admit readily that it HAS to have SOME effect. However, we are talking such a minimal effect on the temperature of the air as to be ineffective.
As to your questions: I have yet to see a dyno of this working on a Maxima, or most cars it is claimed to work on for that matter but that's another story. And the reason it works in other applications is due to poor design of the IM to begin with. Show me a dyno of all cars with spacers then we'll see. Most of them are just doing it because everyone else does it. Again, it does work in some cars, but not due to the fact that the incoming air as seen inside the compression chambers is lower.
Back to work.
05-09-2006, 10:00 AM
#102
okay, im not going back and reading 3 pages about the physical properties of heat distribution in engines and air temperature...
i for one believe that sleeper is doing something for us. however he is doing it, i believe that something is being done. that being said, i live in NJ and to squash peoples doubts and to add some credibility to sleepers information here, i would be willing to take some time on a weekend and meet up with him to check out the spacer, take a look at his information and maybe even go for a ride in the car if they are installed at that point in time. i have no problem doing this, maybe meeting up with some other ORG members too if anyone else cares to.
i for one believe that sleeper is doing something for us. however he is doing it, i believe that something is being done. that being said, i live in NJ and to squash peoples doubts and to add some credibility to sleepers information here, i would be willing to take some time on a weekend and meet up with him to check out the spacer, take a look at his information and maybe even go for a ride in the car if they are installed at that point in time. i have no problem doing this, maybe meeting up with some other ORG members too if anyone else cares to.
05-09-2006, 10:20 AM
#103
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Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 376
First off everyone is right. I will not post again until this is complete or I post the dyno results. As for Epacy's other post starting on NEXTGEARS gaskets, good luck. Had them and it's half the reason I started this. No gains whatsover. Figured I would try myself. I have rather spent the $ on testing mine out. Now you should read this and maybe you will understand..if not I give up, but still welcome other people to ask what they will. I cannot debate all day and I know neither can the rest of you.
The key to improving engine performance is the intake system. As an internal-combustion engine requires approximately 14.7 parts of air for each part of gasoline in the combustion chamber, getting enough quality air to the engine is essential. By quality air, we mean the big three: cool, clean, and compact.A common rule of thumb is that decreasing the air intake temperature by 10 degrees F will increase horsepower and torque by 1%.DO YOU GET THAT???? AIR INTAKE TEMPERATURE BY 10DEGREES =1.0% HP gain approx...Hmmmm I35 =205WHP stock(approx)X1.0%=2.05 WHP GAIN CORRECT? Now, that is on completely stcok VQ35de's. Mine is no where near stock, so obviously I would get bigger gains correct?
ALSO,
An intake manifold is a system of passages which conduct the fuel mixture from the carburetor to the intake valves of the engine. Manifold design has much to do with the efficient operation of an engine. For smooth and even operation, the fuel charge taken into each cylinder should be of the same strength and quality.
AND YET ONE MORE FACT..
Most engines have automatically operated heat controls which use the exhaust gases of the engine to heat the incoming fuel-air charge during starting and warm-up. This improves vaporization and mixture distribution. When the engine is cold, all of the exhaust gas is deflected to and around the intake manifold "hot spot". As the engine warms up, the thermostatic spring is heated and loses tension. This allows the counterweight to change the position of the heat control valve gradually so that, at higher driving speeds with a thoroughly warmed engine, the exhaust gases are passed directly to the exhaust pipe and muffler.
In NO WAY shape or form do I say the above is mine..I DID take it from a search on Manifolds, and that should explain a little more. If it doesn't then I do not know what else to tell you.
The key to improving engine performance is the intake system. As an internal-combustion engine requires approximately 14.7 parts of air for each part of gasoline in the combustion chamber, getting enough quality air to the engine is essential. By quality air, we mean the big three: cool, clean, and compact.A common rule of thumb is that decreasing the air intake temperature by 10 degrees F will increase horsepower and torque by 1%.DO YOU GET THAT???? AIR INTAKE TEMPERATURE BY 10DEGREES =1.0% HP gain approx...Hmmmm I35 =205WHP stock(approx)X1.0%=2.05 WHP GAIN CORRECT? Now, that is on completely stcok VQ35de's. Mine is no where near stock, so obviously I would get bigger gains correct?
ALSO,
An intake manifold is a system of passages which conduct the fuel mixture from the carburetor to the intake valves of the engine. Manifold design has much to do with the efficient operation of an engine. For smooth and even operation, the fuel charge taken into each cylinder should be of the same strength and quality.
AND YET ONE MORE FACT..
Most engines have automatically operated heat controls which use the exhaust gases of the engine to heat the incoming fuel-air charge during starting and warm-up. This improves vaporization and mixture distribution. When the engine is cold, all of the exhaust gas is deflected to and around the intake manifold "hot spot". As the engine warms up, the thermostatic spring is heated and loses tension. This allows the counterweight to change the position of the heat control valve gradually so that, at higher driving speeds with a thoroughly warmed engine, the exhaust gases are passed directly to the exhaust pipe and muffler.
In NO WAY shape or form do I say the above is mine..I DID take it from a search on Manifolds, and that should explain a little more. If it doesn't then I do not know what else to tell you.
05-09-2006, 10:22 AM
#104
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 376
TO KCMC582...
Email me, and I will be happy to meet you probably this Saturday during the day or the following weekend whenever. If you are in NJ you cannot be too far from me. Email me Blackfinny2002@yahoo.com
Email me, and I will be happy to meet you probably this Saturday during the day or the following weekend whenever. If you are in NJ you cannot be too far from me. Email me Blackfinny2002@yahoo.com
05-09-2006, 10:46 AM
#106
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 376
As long as you don't steal my prototype I am fine with that. Email me.
05-09-2006, 11:10 AM
#107
Originally Posted by sleeperI35
First off everyone is right. I will not post again until this is complete or I post the dyno results. As for Epacy's other post starting on NEXTGEARS gaskets, good luck. Had them and it's half the reason I started this. No gains whatsover. Figured I would try myself. I have rather spent the $ on testing mine out. Now you should read this and maybe you will understand..if not I give up, but still welcome other people to ask what they will. I cannot debate all day and I know neither can the rest of you.
The key to improving engine performance is the intake system. As an internal-combustion engine requires approximately 14.7 parts of air for each part of gasoline in the combustion chamber, getting enough quality air to the engine is essential. By quality air, we mean the big three: cool, clean, and compact.A common rule of thumb is that decreasing the air intake temperature by 10 degrees F will increase horsepower and torque by 1%.DO YOU GET THAT???? AIR INTAKE TEMPERATURE BY 10DEGREES =1.0% HP gain approx...Hmmmm I35 =205WHP stock(approx)X1.0%=2.05 WHP GAIN CORRECT? Now, that is on completely stcok VQ35de's. Mine is no where near stock, so obviously I would get bigger gains correct?
ALSO,
An intake manifold is a system of passages which conduct the fuel mixture from the carburetor to the intake valves of the engine. Manifold design has much to do with the efficient operation of an engine. For smooth and even operation, the fuel charge taken into each cylinder should be of the same strength and quality.
AND YET ONE MORE FACT..
Most engines have automatically operated heat controls which use the exhaust gases of the engine to heat the incoming fuel-air charge during starting and warm-up. This improves vaporization and mixture distribution. When the engine is cold, all of the exhaust gas is deflected to and around the intake manifold "hot spot". As the engine warms up, the thermostatic spring is heated and loses tension. This allows the counterweight to change the position of the heat control valve gradually so that, at higher driving speeds with a thoroughly warmed engine, the exhaust gases are passed directly to the exhaust pipe and muffler.
In NO WAY shape or form do I say the above is mine..I DID take it from a search on Manifolds, and that should explain a little more. If it doesn't then I do not know what else to tell you.
The key to improving engine performance is the intake system. As an internal-combustion engine requires approximately 14.7 parts of air for each part of gasoline in the combustion chamber, getting enough quality air to the engine is essential. By quality air, we mean the big three: cool, clean, and compact.A common rule of thumb is that decreasing the air intake temperature by 10 degrees F will increase horsepower and torque by 1%.DO YOU GET THAT???? AIR INTAKE TEMPERATURE BY 10DEGREES =1.0% HP gain approx...Hmmmm I35 =205WHP stock(approx)X1.0%=2.05 WHP GAIN CORRECT? Now, that is on completely stcok VQ35de's. Mine is no where near stock, so obviously I would get bigger gains correct?
ALSO,
An intake manifold is a system of passages which conduct the fuel mixture from the carburetor to the intake valves of the engine. Manifold design has much to do with the efficient operation of an engine. For smooth and even operation, the fuel charge taken into each cylinder should be of the same strength and quality.
AND YET ONE MORE FACT..
Most engines have automatically operated heat controls which use the exhaust gases of the engine to heat the incoming fuel-air charge during starting and warm-up. This improves vaporization and mixture distribution. When the engine is cold, all of the exhaust gas is deflected to and around the intake manifold "hot spot". As the engine warms up, the thermostatic spring is heated and loses tension. This allows the counterweight to change the position of the heat control valve gradually so that, at higher driving speeds with a thoroughly warmed engine, the exhaust gases are passed directly to the exhaust pipe and muffler.
In NO WAY shape or form do I say the above is mine..I DID take it from a search on Manifolds, and that should explain a little more. If it doesn't then I do not know what else to tell you.
And how is your spacer any different in concept or design than the ones you just debunked saying they didn't work from NextGear? The concept for which you are trying to get everyone to buy into was just debunked by yourself. What, in reality, is different in your design than those that you just stated didn't work? Please inform us all. Does the heat transfer less effectively in yours? Does the pathway increase? I would like to hear this one.
I'm glad you qualified the statement as coming from a search because I am pretty sure everyone here worth their salt knows how an internal combustion engine operates but may not realize that some exhaust gas is, indeed, recirculated... I guess that's why the EGR (Exhaust Gas Recirculation) exsists, huh? Or how the exhaust gas is recirculated.
Thanks!
05-09-2006, 11:27 AM
#108
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 376
Very simple Barc...Material has EVERYTHING to do with it, as does space. And NO not everyone here is familiar with how an internal combustion engine works. You keep on saying I bypassed the question, but you my friend are bypassing the answer. I already have answered your question twice. Repetative questions will get repetative answers. I said already I used Next's "gasket" NOT spacer. Read how thick it is. Then go back and read how thick mine is.
Have I debunked my own idea?? NO I have not.. AND I am not trying to get anyone into buying the item...not yet anyway. Not until it is accepted in the community and there is a serious interest. Do you think I would waste my time making two or three of these spacers. Instead of posting over and over the same question, and thinking you know it all, do some research..like I did. Poke fun all you want that I do internet searches to relate my idea to others fact, but it has helped to the stage where I am right now. I thought you were seriously trying to help, when in reality you were trying to prove yourself right...I am not here to prove myself right..actually quite the opposite, that I NEED someone to prove me wrong to correct the problems that I have with the spacer..not to argue on posts back and forth.
Have I debunked my own idea?? NO I have not.. AND I am not trying to get anyone into buying the item...not yet anyway. Not until it is accepted in the community and there is a serious interest. Do you think I would waste my time making two or three of these spacers. Instead of posting over and over the same question, and thinking you know it all, do some research..like I did. Poke fun all you want that I do internet searches to relate my idea to others fact, but it has helped to the stage where I am right now. I thought you were seriously trying to help, when in reality you were trying to prove yourself right...I am not here to prove myself right..actually quite the opposite, that I NEED someone to prove me wrong to correct the problems that I have with the spacer..not to argue on posts back and forth.
05-09-2006, 12:47 PM
#109
OK, fine, your spacer works whereas the gasket does not. No need to prove you wrong since you know it works, as you've let us all know. I'm willing to forego all physics and thermo and accept that. Even though I have not seen where the spacer effectively cools the incoming, ambient temperature air, other than you saying "it just does because it's cooler so it must."
I'm willing to accept that the spacer does, indeed, keep the IM cooler. In fact, I never said once it did not! I can quote myself ad nauseum where I did say that it WOULD keep the IM cooler. Show me where I've once stated the IM would be hotter or stay the same temperature other than after the car has gotten warm. This is the reason you don't drag a hot car. That I have never once debated, nor would I be wise to do so.
My questions, which you keep saying you've answered, have still not been. Where? Quote the lines where you state why air traveling at a rate of 500 cfm is effectively heated to a measurable increase beyond what it normally would be with your spacer in place. Quote the lines where you tell me how there is not an increase in lower IM temperatures due to the spacer being non-conductive. Show me. Maybe I've missed it in my old age.
I'm sorry, I really wanted somoene, I35 preferrably, just to say what mechanism was at work here, why it worked, and then, possibly, post the gains there were.
I'll leave it alone, since obviously I've upset someone just trying to help... and just wait for the dyno, the runfiles, and the video that was shot showing it all to prove me wrong since that is the evidence everyone else is awaiting...
I'm willing to accept that the spacer does, indeed, keep the IM cooler. In fact, I never said once it did not! I can quote myself ad nauseum where I did say that it WOULD keep the IM cooler. Show me where I've once stated the IM would be hotter or stay the same temperature other than after the car has gotten warm. This is the reason you don't drag a hot car. That I have never once debated, nor would I be wise to do so.
My questions, which you keep saying you've answered, have still not been. Where? Quote the lines where you state why air traveling at a rate of 500 cfm is effectively heated to a measurable increase beyond what it normally would be with your spacer in place. Quote the lines where you tell me how there is not an increase in lower IM temperatures due to the spacer being non-conductive. Show me. Maybe I've missed it in my old age.
I'm sorry, I really wanted somoene, I35 preferrably, just to say what mechanism was at work here, why it worked, and then, possibly, post the gains there were.
I'll leave it alone, since obviously I've upset someone just trying to help... and just wait for the dyno, the runfiles, and the video that was shot showing it all to prove me wrong since that is the evidence everyone else is awaiting...
05-09-2006, 01:22 PM
#110
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 376
Where in my posts did I say it lowers the INCOMING air temperature? Maybe I mis spoke, and IF I did, then I apologize for that. I am trying to say that it keeps the IM cooler. I am not offended by your questions sir, rather the actions of you posting in someone else's thread quoting me in a sarcastic way. I welcomed your questions from the beginning. All I am trying to say is if there is a metal "box" heating up the air before it actually reaches the IM (traveling through the plenum) then a source of cooling that air would be to seperate the plenum from the motor enough to not conduct AS MUCH heat as it normally would. If the air traveling at 500CFM could not be heated or cooled any more than finding another source where the air was being taken from (E.G. Ram air (TM Pontiac) or cold air intakes, etc.) I am simply trying to say that a non conductive material spacing the two (plenum + IM) would decrease the transfer of heat from the motor to the air intake. The heat conductivity goes both ways. I am not going to fight about it all day and night. It was previously stated. If you could kindly explain WHY spacing the two would NOT reduce heat, maybe you can help me out here. Not physics or thermal conductivity class here. I am actually asking for help because I believe you brought up some valid points.
05-09-2006, 01:23 PM
#111
[QUOTE=sleeperI35]I retained a air intake temp of -10 degrees off of what the car had been averaging in various temperature tests. 108 is usual for the intake temp, and I was running at a steady 98 degrees consistently. I will also post how the tests were performed. The WHP GAIN was about 7 HP / 9lb TQ with the smaller spacer and 9 HP / 11lb TQ with the larger spacer /QUOTE]
[QUOTE=sleeperI35]A common rule of thumb is that decreasing the air intake temperature by 10 degrees F will increase horsepower and torque by 1%.[/B]DO YOU GET THAT???? AIR INTAKE TEMPERATURE BY 10DEGREES =1.0% HP gain approx...Hmmmm I35 =205WHP stock(approx)X1.0%=2.05 WHP GAIN CORRECT? Now, that is on completely stcok VQ35de's. Mine is no where near stock, so obviously I would get bigger gains correct? /QUOTE]
It looks like I'm missing something here. You lowered the intake temp by 10 degrees and gained 7 to 9 HP. Does that mean you're making 700 to 900 HP?
[QUOTE=sleeperI35]A common rule of thumb is that decreasing the air intake temperature by 10 degrees F will increase horsepower and torque by 1%.[/B]DO YOU GET THAT???? AIR INTAKE TEMPERATURE BY 10DEGREES =1.0% HP gain approx...Hmmmm I35 =205WHP stock(approx)X1.0%=2.05 WHP GAIN CORRECT? Now, that is on completely stcok VQ35de's. Mine is no where near stock, so obviously I would get bigger gains correct? /QUOTE]
It looks like I'm missing something here. You lowered the intake temp by 10 degrees and gained 7 to 9 HP. Does that mean you're making 700 to 900 HP?
05-09-2006, 02:08 PM
#112
LMFAO, the plenum spacer will not lower the temperature of the air passing through the plenum. (unless you want to pack it in dry ice or something) However it will not allow the air to get warmer due to the hot plenum. (>200F) Barc says the air isn't in the plenum long enough to get hotter. If you turn your oven up to 500 F and stick your hand in there, how long does it take to feel the heat? And if you feel the heat that does mean there is some heat transfer.
05-09-2006, 02:22 PM
#113
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 141
Sorry, but you are wrong in your input that the air can, or doesn't change temp as it passes through the intake. For years people from pro drag, to back yard weekend street racers have cooled their intakes to improve the charging effect from cooler denser air entering the engine. There are a number of systems, and products on the market for this very purpose. Beside this, I have first hand experience in the effect. Go to any local drag strip and watch the guys who put LG. bags of ice on their intakes to cool them down between runs. Just the intake not the motor. Some of these cars see an improvement of a few 1/10 by doing this. A AL. intake will work no different than a inner cooler does for a turbo, or super charger. If those can pull, or dissipate heat from air at the rate of speed the air passes through them, than there is no question as to whether air will absorb heat from the intake. The intake’s case it’s hotter, thus the heat transfer with be from intake to air. It’s a reverse deal if you will.
The spacer does two things. If it increases your runner length enough you will gain low rpm TQ, and loss some of your top end. This is well known. Remember guys the things you are dealing with are not new, and buy simply looking at older cars, and such you can see the same ideas applied in different ways. Example: the high plane intakes of the old muscle cars. Longer runner for lower rpm TQ. Same idea, just a different design for the time. Engines are not new, and the principal behind their workings are not new. We just have to figure out how to apply what is known to the ever-changing engine design, and computer control systems.
There is of course the heat issue. The spacer may keep the upper intake cooler, but remember that if the upper intake is no longer taking on that heat it is going somewhere else. Heat is a form energy and energy is neither created, nor destroyed. The energy/heat in this case still exists; it’s just going somewhere else. 2nd thing to keep in mind is that the lower intake is the part getting the hottest because of its direct contact with the engine. If it’s not conducting its heat through the upper intake as it was. Then the lower intake will be retaining more heat, which makes it hotter. This can lead to a lot of things. This means that the heads can retain more heat leading to higher combustion chamber temps. That’s never good. If you really want to make a cooler intake you need to make the intakes ability to dissipate heat tons more efficient, and a better way for the heat to be extracted once dissipated. This will give you a lower overall intake temp, and intake air temp.
The spacer does two things. If it increases your runner length enough you will gain low rpm TQ, and loss some of your top end. This is well known. Remember guys the things you are dealing with are not new, and buy simply looking at older cars, and such you can see the same ideas applied in different ways. Example: the high plane intakes of the old muscle cars. Longer runner for lower rpm TQ. Same idea, just a different design for the time. Engines are not new, and the principal behind their workings are not new. We just have to figure out how to apply what is known to the ever-changing engine design, and computer control systems.
There is of course the heat issue. The spacer may keep the upper intake cooler, but remember that if the upper intake is no longer taking on that heat it is going somewhere else. Heat is a form energy and energy is neither created, nor destroyed. The energy/heat in this case still exists; it’s just going somewhere else. 2nd thing to keep in mind is that the lower intake is the part getting the hottest because of its direct contact with the engine. If it’s not conducting its heat through the upper intake as it was. Then the lower intake will be retaining more heat, which makes it hotter. This can lead to a lot of things. This means that the heads can retain more heat leading to higher combustion chamber temps. That’s never good. If you really want to make a cooler intake you need to make the intakes ability to dissipate heat tons more efficient, and a better way for the heat to be extracted once dissipated. This will give you a lower overall intake temp, and intake air temp.
05-09-2006, 02:57 PM
#114
Originally Posted by Barc
I'll leave it alone, since obviously I've upset someone just trying to help... and just wait for the dyno, the runfiles, and the video that was shot showing it all to prove me wrong since that is the evidence everyone else is awaiting...
All scarcasm aside, I've proven my point to myself and those who have read my inane, rambling babble.
Originally Posted by Forrest Gump
That's all I have to say about that.
05-09-2006, 03:39 PM
#115
Originally Posted by Barc
Quoting myself for clarity...
All scarcasm aside, I've proven my point to myself and those who have read my inane, rambling babble.
All scarcasm aside, I've proven my point to myself and those who have read my inane, rambling babble.
I have a suggestion Barc, why don't you use some equations and numbers and demonstrate how insignificant the difference in IM temperature actually is to the resulting increase in air temperature? Numbers don't have to be exact to demonstrate the relationship between the two. I ran through some calcs based on the equations I could find and my "best" guess regarding information I wasn't sure of, and they told me that the IM temperature change was insignificant to the resulting air temperature (less than one degree). But I am going back to a University class I took 10 years ago, using equations I am not sure of, and making wild guesses at some numbers I don't know. You are evidently more knowledgable on these principals than most people here including me, so maybe run through the math and see what it tells you?
05-09-2006, 03:54 PM
#116
Originally Posted by sleeperI35
all of the exhaust gas is deflected to and around the intake manifold "hot spot". As the engine warms up, the thermostatic spring is heated and loses tension. This allows the counterweight to change the position of the heat control valve gradually so that, at higher driving speeds with a thoroughly warmed engine, the exhaust gases are passed directly to the exhaust pipe and muffler.
05-09-2006, 04:04 PM
#117
Originally Posted by BigFly_2K2SE
I have read every word with great interest and I even pulled out my old Thermodynamics text book to read a little more on heat transfer.
I have a suggestion Barc, why don't you use some equations and numbers and demonstrate how insignificant the difference in IM temperature actually is to the resulting increase in air temperature? Numbers don't have to be exact to demonstrate the relationship between the two. I ran through some calcs based on the equations I could find and my "best" guess regarding information I wasn't sure of, and they told me that the IM temperature change was insignificant to the resulting air temperature (less than one degree). But I am going back to a University class I took 10 years ago, using equations I am not sure of, and making wild guesses at some numbers I don't know. You are evidently more knowledgable on these principals than most people here including me, so maybe run through the math and see what it tells you?
I have a suggestion Barc, why don't you use some equations and numbers and demonstrate how insignificant the difference in IM temperature actually is to the resulting increase in air temperature? Numbers don't have to be exact to demonstrate the relationship between the two. I ran through some calcs based on the equations I could find and my "best" guess regarding information I wasn't sure of, and they told me that the IM temperature change was insignificant to the resulting air temperature (less than one degree). But I am going back to a University class I took 10 years ago, using equations I am not sure of, and making wild guesses at some numbers I don't know. You are evidently more knowledgable on these principals than most people here including me, so maybe run through the math and see what it tells you?
05-09-2006, 04:29 PM
#119
To Everyone
Wouldn't the simple fact that the intake plenum being seperated by a less heat transferrable material suggest that any heat transfer would occur in substantially less amounts?
If 1ft3 of air is traveling through a box at 1/8 second, will it not stilll be affected by a decrease in the plenum temp??
Also i was under the impression the intake plenum was designed for max efficiency in AIR FLOW... granted decreasing temperature would help (if such is the case) then wouldn't the flow of air ALSO be effected?
Furthermore.... this forum is quick to judge... maybe the only thing I35 has done was underestimate the amount of skepticism and excitement aut the potential product. No one person can doubt that when I say... as I HAVE before... "I will post pics" or definitive proof of something.... NO one cares that I don't or forget.... this is exciting... and I35 is keeping us in suspense... deny it all ya want but this is either Brilliant tactic or just as he's stated before... something he cares less and less about doing.
Lets not call anyone a flip flopper in here... We all KNOW how that turned out in the tragedy of 04!!!!
Peace, Liberalism, and Happiness