Dyno results: Stillen Headers
10-21-2003, 09:32 PM
#81
Originally Posted by SR20DEN
This isn't looking good. Do you have the run files from all of the passes?
The same damn thing happened to me when I put headers on my 95 Max. Well I gained a few HP but I spent about $1200..
Sorry to hear you got such crappy results Will, it really hurts to get screwed on a new part
10-21-2003, 09:51 PM
#82
Proven? 2-bad dynos to 1-"good" 1/4-mile where driver/conditions mean more then most mods, isn't "proven" IMO. I'm VERY glad you think they are worth it, since I'd hate to be anybody that spent that much and doesn't like the results right now.
However, I'll WAIT until more people dyno BEFORE I make my decision on whether or not the headers are worth $900 bones.
I'd still take the UNproven ypipe and UNproven ECU in a heart beat right now over the 2-negative and 1-positive feedback on the Stillen headers.
However, I'll WAIT until more people dyno BEFORE I make my decision on whether or not the headers are worth $900 bones.
I'd still take the UNproven ypipe and UNproven ECU in a heart beat right now over the 2-negative and 1-positive feedback on the Stillen headers.
Originally Posted by juice
I dont know why everyone is so down on these headers they are a little pricey but I have proven they give power...
http://forums.maxima.org/showthread.php?t=256334
http://forums.maxima.org/showthread.php?t=256334
10-21-2003, 10:14 PM
#83
We shouldnt have to fighting to gain 1-2hp with these headers, the gains should me to the point were the increase feels 
not just ehhh, especially for over $1K IMO.
92 SE-R 02 SE: I "belive" the stillen unit removes all 3 cats.
not just ehhh, especially for over $1K IMO.92 SE-R 02 SE: I "belive" the stillen unit removes all 3 cats.
10-22-2003, 06:51 AM
#84
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,279
Originally Posted by HitManSE
We shouldnt have to fighting to gain 1-2hp with these headers, the gains should me to the point were the increase feels not just ehhh, especially for over $1K IMO.
92 SE-R 02 SE: I "belive" the stillen unit removes all 3 cats.
not just ehhh, especially for over $1K IMO.92 SE-R 02 SE: I "belive" the stillen unit removes all 3 cats.
will
10-22-2003, 07:53 AM
#85
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Charlotte, NC
Posts: 1,687
Ok... here's what I figured out so far...
I originally had a WSP 2.5" Y pipe before the headers. It seems to me that because I lost power, the WSP Y pipe was creating/making/freeing-up more power than the headers do now. So in my logical assumption, I would tell people to get the Y pipe from WSP over the headers, as the gains on the dyno are greater.
I'm not sure about Will's car, but the reason I lost power was because I had already seen the big gain from the WSP Y pipe - let's say +10 HP. When the Stillen headers were installed, they only gained +9 HP. So when I compared the before and after, I lost 1 HP.
Stillen blames it on my E-Manage and the tuning. I know for a fact that the car is tuned and that the E-Manage works properly, as I have proven it via dyno... and I installed/checked it myself. Oh, and I'm the tuner as well, so there's no error there either.
Stillen blames Will's loss on the fact that his baseline dyno was over 1 year ago. I can believe this more than the story they gave me, but I still need to talk to Will before I comment any more.
Now... it COULD be true that Stillen gained +20 HP on a truely STOCK Maxima, but that seems to be the "highest" gain overall. They said that most people that they dyno'd had an intake and some sort of exhaust - most of them were Cat-Backs.
I've asked another member to follow a certain procedure when they install their headers. This procedure was the EXACT procedure that Stillen told me that they used to dyno their cars. If once that install is completed and the results are not positive, then Stillen has alot of questions to answer. But, if that install show gains, then we've learned that you can gain when you are almost stock, but you won't see those gains if you already have a Y pipe and Cat-Back.
I originally had a WSP 2.5" Y pipe before the headers. It seems to me that because I lost power, the WSP Y pipe was creating/making/freeing-up more power than the headers do now. So in my logical assumption, I would tell people to get the Y pipe from WSP over the headers, as the gains on the dyno are greater.
I'm not sure about Will's car, but the reason I lost power was because I had already seen the big gain from the WSP Y pipe - let's say +10 HP. When the Stillen headers were installed, they only gained +9 HP. So when I compared the before and after, I lost 1 HP.
Stillen blames it on my E-Manage and the tuning. I know for a fact that the car is tuned and that the E-Manage works properly, as I have proven it via dyno... and I installed/checked it myself. Oh, and I'm the tuner as well, so there's no error there either.
Stillen blames Will's loss on the fact that his baseline dyno was over 1 year ago. I can believe this more than the story they gave me, but I still need to talk to Will before I comment any more.
Now... it COULD be true that Stillen gained +20 HP on a truely STOCK Maxima, but that seems to be the "highest" gain overall. They said that most people that they dyno'd had an intake and some sort of exhaust - most of them were Cat-Backs.
I've asked another member to follow a certain procedure when they install their headers. This procedure was the EXACT procedure that Stillen told me that they used to dyno their cars. If once that install is completed and the results are not positive, then Stillen has alot of questions to answer. But, if that install show gains, then we've learned that you can gain when you are almost stock, but you won't see those gains if you already have a Y pipe and Cat-Back.
10-22-2003, 09:47 AM
#86
I'd believe that the gains from the y-pipe vs. headers is going to be minimal, if any, for a NA car. Throw on a 7100rpm ECU, cams, or FI and it may be a different story.
I'm starting to lean towards the idea that the majority of bolt-on NA cars exhaust systems with just a y-pipe and catback is non-restricting enough, ie you're not moving enough air to take advantage of the headers.
Maybe SR20DEN can lay down some before/after dyno runs with nitrous, since nitrous responds to an oversized exhaust like turbos do, IIRC.
I'm starting to lean towards the idea that the majority of bolt-on NA cars exhaust systems with just a y-pipe and catback is non-restricting enough, ie you're not moving enough air to take advantage of the headers.
Maybe SR20DEN can lay down some before/after dyno runs with nitrous, since nitrous responds to an oversized exhaust like turbos do, IIRC.
Originally Posted by studman
But, if that install show gains, then we've learned that you can gain when you are almost stock, but you won't see those gains if you already have a Y pipe and Cat-Back.
10-22-2003, 10:14 AM
#87
Other NA cars ranging from the CL-S and even the qr25 nissan motor developed 30+ and 12+ hp from headers respectivly. Since we see 10-15hp with just the ypipe, then we probably will see a 5-7hp gain over the ypipe. If the TS ECU goes through lets say hello to 7700rpm, the limit to the JWT cams for the VQ30 guys.
10-22-2003, 10:19 AM
#88
Guest
Posts: n/a
Originally Posted by IceY2K1
I'd believe that the gains from the y-pipe vs. headers is going to be minimal, if any, for a NA car. Throw on a 7100rpm ECU, cams, or FI and it may be a different story.
.
.
10-22-2003, 10:23 AM
#89
I can't stress enough how that deal is NEVER going to happen again.
That's a killer price considering how much it costs him to make them with the quality we expect/demand from Cattman.
That's a killer price considering how much it costs him to make them with the quality we expect/demand from Cattman.
Originally Posted by 92 SE-R 02 SE
I agree. i think its time to jump on the GD for the 02+ cattman Y-pipes for $300...
10-22-2003, 10:44 AM
#90
Different engines with their fancy VTEC, CVTC, VIAS, etc...will react differently. Some will sacrifice TONS of torque to get some serious gains on top end. Typically, there isn't as much FREE LUNCH to find trapped in the exhaust nowadays. Manufacturers are squeezing more and more out of the same, if not less, displacement.
The 2K2+ are not seeing as much gains from the ypipe as a 2K-2K1 as far as I've heard the 2K2+ ypipe is around 8-9whp. So, IF the headers(which doesn't seem to be happening!) gain an ADDITIONAL "5-7hp" over the ypipe, is that worth $900 vs. $300?
IMO...NOT with the TS ECU now available UNLESS you're on an unlimited budget. However, maybe once people start dynoing the 7000+ RPM redline, cams, or running FI, will we see the benefits of the headers vs. the y-pipe.
The 2K2+ are not seeing as much gains from the ypipe as a 2K-2K1 as far as I've heard the 2K2+ ypipe is around 8-9whp. So, IF the headers(which doesn't seem to be happening!) gain an ADDITIONAL "5-7hp" over the ypipe, is that worth $900 vs. $300?
IMO...NOT with the TS ECU now available UNLESS you're on an unlimited budget. However, maybe once people start dynoing the 7000+ RPM redline, cams, or running FI, will we see the benefits of the headers vs. the y-pipe.
Originally Posted by gkstar
Other NA cars ranging from the CL-S and even the qr25 nissan motor developed 30+ and 12+ hp from headers respectivly. Since we see 10-15hp with just the ypipe, then we probably will see a 5-7hp gain over the ypipe. If the TS ECU goes through lets say hello to 7700rpm, the limit to the JWT cams for the VQ30 guys.
10-22-2003, 11:01 AM
#91
Originally Posted by IceY2K1
The 2K2+ are not seeing as much gains from the ypipe as a 2K-2K1 as far as I've heard the 2K2+ ypipe is around 8-9whp. So, IF the headers(which doesn't seem to be happening!) gain an ADDITIONAL "5-7hp" over the ypipe, is that worth $900 vs. $300?
:
10-22-2003, 11:07 AM
#92
350z headers are TOTALLY DIFFERENT. The OEM headers probably flow far better then even these aftermarket Maxima ones.
However, from the pre-cats back(not including headers/precats), Stillen wrung out 13whp, IIRC. That pre-cat back system is a TRUE dual setup with two of everything and had some serious R&D done to eek out that much whp.
However, from the pre-cats back(not including headers/precats), Stillen wrung out 13whp, IIRC. That pre-cat back system is a TRUE dual setup with two of everything and had some serious R&D done to eek out that much whp.
Originally Posted by gkstar
Agreed, I basically said the same thing a couple posts ago. In terms of the TS ECU it gives the potential, with cams and headers, for us to achieve NA power that could rival a low boost SC. And at a similar cost. What are the project gains for the NISMO 350z headers? That might give some basis.
10-22-2003, 11:20 AM
#93
Alright then, argument solved. Stillen pulled some stuff on the max owners with the headers, if a dual setup with better flow characteristics got only 13whp, then how can they saw 20+whp with the max headers? Had the 350z headers put out significantly more then, they'd have a case. It seems www.nissanperformancemag.com is testing Borla's new headers for the Z next month, I guess I'll wait to see those results before I recommend people contact the Better Business Bureau and get the money back on the Stillen Headers.
10-22-2003, 11:44 AM
#94
Not DAVEB the parts guy
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 8,555
Originally Posted by gkstar
I guess I'll wait to see those results before I recommend people contact the Better Business Bureau and get the money back on the Stillen Headers.
Dave
10-22-2003, 12:09 PM
#95
Supporting Maxima.org Member
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Reno, NV
Posts: 2,909
Originally Posted by IceY2K1
I'd believe that the gains from the y-pipe vs. headers is going to be minimal, if any, for a NA car. Throw on a 7100rpm ECU, cams, or FI and it may be a different story.
I'm starting to lean towards the idea that the majority of bolt-on NA cars exhaust systems with just a y-pipe and catback is non-restricting enough, ie you're not moving enough air to take advantage of the headers.
Maybe SR20DEN can lay down some before/after dyno runs with nitrous, since nitrous responds to an oversized exhaust like turbos do, IIRC.
I'm starting to lean towards the idea that the majority of bolt-on NA cars exhaust systems with just a y-pipe and catback is non-restricting enough, ie you're not moving enough air to take advantage of the headers.
Maybe SR20DEN can lay down some before/after dyno runs with nitrous, since nitrous responds to an oversized exhaust like turbos do, IIRC.
Hit the nail on the head!
10-22-2003, 12:20 PM
#96
Not DAVEB the parts guy
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 8,555
A well designed and tuned header setup will make power regardless of if you have an intake or the OEM intake. A good header will scavage or draw air out of the heads. This would help the motor bring in more air because it can push more out. A poor header setup will cause exhaust reverberations and will hurt performance. This may be what we're seeing.
The stock manifolds are ugly, but they're really not that bad in terms of performance. "Don in Texas" ported his stock manifolds (removed ~1lb from each manifold) on his 96 and he gained a whopping 1hp. This shows the OEM volume and OEM port design of the manifold isn't bad and that it would require some great tuning and design to extract power out of a header vs the stock cast manifolds.
Dave
The stock manifolds are ugly, but they're really not that bad in terms of performance. "Don in Texas" ported his stock manifolds (removed ~1lb from each manifold) on his 96 and he gained a whopping 1hp. This shows the OEM volume and OEM port design of the manifold isn't bad and that it would require some great tuning and design to extract power out of a header vs the stock cast manifolds.
Dave
10-22-2003, 12:41 PM
#97
Junior Member
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 28
Anyone want to try a set of altima headers on your car? I got a set (final production, w/ cat, all shiny) sitting in my living room. seannolden@frontiernet.net Additionally if y'all want anymore of my dyno runs before adn after the headers let me know via email
am asking 620 for the headers link to my ad is here: http://www.nissantalk.com/forum/show...hreadid=126801
They are going on ebay later this week
Sean
Luvin' the VQ/RWD thing
am asking 620 for the headers link to my ad is here: http://www.nissantalk.com/forum/show...hreadid=126801
They are going on ebay later this week
Sean
Luvin' the VQ/RWD thing
10-22-2003, 03:49 PM
#98
I agree that the headers are pricey...but I would like you guys to show me any other auto, besides blubyu2k2 and 1 or 2 others, that are down below 14.5 on 18's w/street tires, in the 1/4 with mods. There aren't even that many manual guys hittin those numbers...so what more proof do you need?
10-22-2003, 03:56 PM
#99
Originally Posted by juice
I agree that the headers are pricey...but I would like you guys to show me any other auto, besides blubyu2k2 and 1 or 2 others, that are down below 14.5 on 18's w/street tires, in the 1/4 with mods. There aren't even that many manual guys hittin those numbers...so what more proof do you need?
Well, you're the only one who has positive output from the headers so far. I don't recall, but have you done a dyno yet? If not, please get one done as soon as possible (for the rest of us)...
Two bad dynos with the same problem is the starting of a trend. One good night of runs with the headers is an incomplete scientific assessment...
10-22-2003, 04:19 PM
#100
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 630
Stillen and the market game
Its no accident that the Stillen pre-cat back exhaust makes real horespower on the 350Z and the Maxima's headers produce nothing. The market for the 350Z will surpass the Maxima and become more profitable for Stillen and they know it.
Which owner, considering all ages, is more likely to buy an exhaust for their vehicle. The 350Z owner. Which owner probably grosses more money annually? The 350Z owner. Which owner is probalby older, and has more money to invest after becoming a satisfied customer? The 350Z owner. (Did Stillen get the 350Z supercharger kit ready quickly? yes) Which owner is more likely to have more legal leverage in the event they lost money on a bogus modification? The older, wealthy 350Z owner. Which car gets more reviews in magazines as a performance icon? The 350Z. Which car is more talked about in circles of enthusiasts and the general public? The 350Z.
So you see, it only makes sense to sell Maxima owners a bogus product, while building up the company's reputation through the 350Z and its owners. After all, Stillen's smartest marketing tactic is to make the 350Z their own billboard car.
Jesse
Which owner, considering all ages, is more likely to buy an exhaust for their vehicle. The 350Z owner. Which owner probably grosses more money annually? The 350Z owner. Which owner is probalby older, and has more money to invest after becoming a satisfied customer? The 350Z owner. (Did Stillen get the 350Z supercharger kit ready quickly? yes) Which owner is more likely to have more legal leverage in the event they lost money on a bogus modification? The older, wealthy 350Z owner. Which car gets more reviews in magazines as a performance icon? The 350Z. Which car is more talked about in circles of enthusiasts and the general public? The 350Z.
So you see, it only makes sense to sell Maxima owners a bogus product, while building up the company's reputation through the 350Z and its owners. After all, Stillen's smartest marketing tactic is to make the 350Z their own billboard car.
Jesse
10-22-2003, 04:24 PM
#101
But who are the possible potential owners of 350z's. I would hope to say some of us on this forum. If this thing with Stillen does not turn out positive I could hopefully envison a backlash of the entire import tuning community.Its like the dealership being a pr1ck to me because I am a young car owner with mods, you think I'll recommend that dealer again.
10-22-2003, 05:36 PM
#102
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,279
Originally Posted by gkstar
But who are the possible potential owners of 350z's. I would hope to say some of us on this forum. If this thing with Stillen does not turn out positive I could hopefully envison a backlash of the entire import tuning community.Its like the dealership being a pr1ck to me because I am a young car owner with mods, you think I'll recommend that dealer again.
they dont know who i need to talk towill
10-22-2003, 06:09 PM
#103
Originally Posted by WILLSE
im on hold right now with stillen....... they dont know who i need to talk to
will
they dont know who i need to talk towill
Good Luck!
11-17-2003, 11:19 AM
#105
Please post all replies here:
http://forums.maxima.org/showthread.php?t=264127
http://forums.maxima.org/showthread.php?t=264127
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