F23A4

As a follow up to JJS's post, the BMW 5-series is in the same EPA class as the Sentra, Civic and Focus -- COMPACT: http://www.new-cars.com/2002-car-reviews-epa.html

So though you may get what you pay for, apparently you aren't paying for interior space.

Peace.

jjs

Interesting...actually, I was referring to the 3 series but find it enlightening that the 5 is in that class.

So both are Bavarian Civics!!!

F23A4

OUCH!

tbirdrob

So the Maxima is more comparable to a 7 series?! Too bad they don't make the 7 with a manual transmission and without that stupid I-control thing.

Young04

hahaha.

and therefore, the max is superior to not only the 5 series, but the 7 series as well, according to some of the logic suggested on this thread

Linh

consider what you guys say about the altima, multiply that by like a million, and thats what 5 and 7 series owners might reply to your ridiculous suggestions that the max is the better car.

F23A4

Ease up on the caffeine bro.

VMaximus02

iTrader: (1)

-now come on, a million times?

Linh

ok ok... maybe 999,999X

vqman

caffeine?

sheee-it

that man's trippin!

-vq

C430

Here we go with the fit and finish again. Strictly a matter of opinion.

I drove the 325 convertible, and a 5-series station wagon. My neightbor used to work for BMW headquarters in Montvale NJ, and he always had neat cars to take home. Both were rather spartan on the inside, and did not seem anymore solid than the Max. And we all know that BMWs have a higher failure rate of parts and components over the years -they just are not as reliable as Japanese cars.

As for the Passat, ha ha ha ha ha - not a chance against the Max, in any category. Even Consumer Reports rate them as only average for reliability. Seems like a high % of VW drivers were born to drive rudly. Very arrogant, until they get smoked by a Max. A humbling experience.

As for driving a BMW and Max hard, hey, that's not very smart with any car that you rely on to make a living. The Max handles very very well, better than perhaps 99% of the cars on the road. In a tight traffic situation, you don't have the road to stretch out to autobahn speeds - only idiots try that on the Garden State Parkeway, and they end up on the helicopter traffic reports "major accident by exit 137, traffic backed up for 5 miles ..."

In the real world, the Max is an excellent performer and an excellent value. If you think the BMW is really that much better, trade in you Max for a bimmer! Do it!!!! You only live once!!!!

vqman

I don't think we mean that the BMW is an overall better car/value for everyone...

but set cost, reliability, and anything other than driving aside, and the BMW is the clear winner...(just considering driving)

but when you factor in stability of FWD in bad weather, cheap repair costs of the Nissan, cheap initial cost of the Nissan, decent interior materials of both cars, the decent handling of the Maxima (BMW is GREAT in that department)...good acceleration of the Maxima, reliability of of the Maxima...

that makes it worth owning for me...The Nissan...instead of the BMW...

but this thread we got to talking about DRIVING DYNAMICS, and I know the Maxima's best doesn't compare to BMW's 540i and/or the last generation M3 let alone the new one.

You are right, I only live once, and I want to be able to afford to put my child (still in womb) through college...I want to be able to afford a larger house than I have now. I want to be able to pay cash for an M3 (or equivelant) some day...(i am only 27) so i have elected to go with the Nissan...better overall value for my dollar...right now!

-vq

dwapenyi

iTrader: (3)

It's funny the way you phrased that. Let's just put ALL the other major factors aside about owning a car, and just pay attention to one. In that respect, the BMW is the clear winner

DW

vqman

that's the point...the BMW is the "Ultimate Driving Machine" but thats it. We ARE driving enthusiasts...right?

But I am also an enthusiast of my wallet. I like being able to go out with my wife, I like knowing that I can afford major repair on my car (if something were to fail) I also like that my car is less likely to fail in the first place.

But this post was talking about driving, and what car drives better. The BMW wins that one. It's a driver. It's meant to be driven...

But for my dollar, I'll go with the Maxima...way better than average driving dynamics, at a GREAT price - a price that I can afford.

-vq

dwapenyi

iTrader: (3)

I'm totally with you on that one.

DW

vito1281

You need to keep in my mind that most of the 530i buyers, and even more so 540i, are not spending their last dimes and pennies on the car. For them to buy a 540i is like for us to buy a Maxima (this is assuming most of us are affording it comfortably). For people in that class, they are not concerned with "best bang for buck" because they have a lot of bucks to bang!!! For the wealthy, owning a BMW or any other luxury brand is like a class-necessity, meaning you have to drive a BMW if you make over $XXX,XXX/yr or whatever.

Now, if you're going to dish out your last penny in order to afford a BMW just to have a BMW, well, IMHO, that's plain stupid. I think the Max is very comparable even to a 530i in build quality/design/reliability, etc, if not better in some of these areas.

But to say that the Max is better than a 530i just because it's faster is like saying the new Neon SRT is better than the Max just because it's faster.

We have to keep things in perspective when comparing a Nissan to a BMW. On that note, let me just say that I simply LOVE my Max, and could care less about a BMW at this point.

C430

C430

Seems like we are all saying almost the same thing in different words.

The Max is the clear winner in everything except very high-speed handling, which is very rare in most northeastern states.

We don't have autobahns. I shudder to think about what would happen if we did - some lunkhead driving his beatup Chevy at 100 MPH plus, as parts come flying off hitting other cars causing accidents.

I'm a sales rep, I put on lots of miles, more than the average driver. My observance is that the vast majority of BMW drivers are not "enthusiasts," pushing their cars to the limit, dodging in and out of traffic, generally behaving rude and causing problems. Seems like they are middle-class and upper class professionals with a hankering for a presigious car. They've earned it.

I also noticed on this string that the guys who like BMWs are comparing the M series and V8 models to the Max - let's be realistic, they are more powerful (and expensive) cars. The 528/530 are smaller and slower, and in the real world of driving in the northeast part ofthe USA, offer very little over the Max, prestige being tied with very hi speed handling advantage.

F23A4

Point well taken. But the jist of this topic is that a 530i attempted to run a 2k2 Max, where the 530i is WAY out of its league in this category (if no other category).

That said, if could trade my Max for a 540, I would.

AndyXXL

I'm a little confused. BMW and VW Passat are two different cars really. Why are you saying "I'm surprised to see that several of you place BMW so far above the Maxima in terms of build quality and dependability" when you only looked and compared Passat to a Maxima? I've driven a new Passat and was very disappointed. For that amount of money I would rather go with an Audi.
Nissans are great cars, I used to own 2 myself. Now, my mother is driving a brand new Altima 2.5SL and thinks it's a much better vehicle than her 98 Volvo S70.
To those who laugh at the "cramped" interior of a 3-series. I am 6'5" and feel much more comfortable in my 330ci than in any Altima or Maxima

GhettoMAX

IMO If you heard his engine rev before he took off there were probably better chances it was a 5-spd manual unless he was using his steptronic auto to kick it down to N -> rev the engine -> then shift up. (If thats possible)

Young04

brake torque?

bigdo26

iTrader: (3)

for everyone wondering what car will beat what, i highly recommend downloading the free car test program, car test 4.5. here's the link to the page it's on:
http://home.earthlink.net/~patglenn/ct.html
it runs off dos and appears rather old, but it works wonderfully. i've compared its results to the actual tests that Road and Track to on their cars, and all the times match up almost perfectly. its a great program to determine who will beat who under ideal circumstances. the download link is down at the bottom of the page, again its car test 4.5, not the car test 2000.... have fun!

AndyXXL

No, that's not possible. Steptronic tranny will not let you to downshift like that.

GhettoMAX

I thought so but wasnt 100% sure.

Galo

question...how many of the sixty-odd prior posters have actually owned BOTH of these cars (either version of the E39 and/or a Gen5) at any point in their lives? Before you go off thinking I;m being snotty, I'm trying to establish is the difference between observations and opinions...there certainly look to be many opinions but onjective, experienced-based observations?

'Nuff said.

One more OBSERVATION, and this one to the 6'5" gentleman who is more comfortable in a 330:
a) five will get you ten that you can barely fit a briefcase between the front seat back and the rear seat and
b) five will get u ten that your knees are scrunched up too much.

How do I know? One of the fave mods on the E39 board was to remove the spacer in the seat tracks to allow the front seat to slide back another inch because AS IT CAME FROM THE FACTORY A PERSON OVER 6'4" COULD NOT GET THE SEAT FAR BACK ENOUGH TO FIT HIS LARGE FRAME without wrapping his knees around the steering wheel. You wanna tell me a 3-series can accomodate a driver a Fiver cant?

Another OBSERVATION: The ergonomics on a Fiver suck. If you set the seat to accomodate the clutch -fully depress it, as one should- the gas pedal is too close forcing one's leg to be unnaturaly crunched up. The Sports seats 'pinch' those who are maybe 38" in waist or larger. Not me, I'm 31" waist but...ohh, you should see how many folks on the E39 board were trying to swap seats.

Another OBSERVATION: the recirculating ball steering of the V8 540 (cant fit the rack and pinion because of the larger engine) SUCKS compared to the Maxes rack & pinion.

Bottom line: the Fiver is a great car, for sure. Has its good and bad things like any other car. Is it worth $15k more than the Max

Nope. Observation, not opinion

vito1281

The $15K more is the premium you pay so that you can say "I drive a 5 series bimmer". As far as technology and build quality/materials is concerned, the BMW probably uses better materials and assembly, but maybe another $5K grand worth. The extra money you pay is for the BMW name.

AndyXXL

Yes! And I can take a picture for you to prove it. I've sat in a 530i and an M5, and I could barely fit my left leg between the steering wheel and the door. Don't forget that I have a coupe, which has slightly more leg room than even a 330 sedan. Believe me, I test drove many bimmers before buying my 330ci and this was the only car I was comfortable in.
Forgot to add, I am 38" in waist and have sport seats.

jjs

To each his own.

Bottom line is that more than one of us who have either test driven or actually driven a 3 series for periods of months or years (friends, significant others, etc.) find the cars to be closed in, cramped, lacking elbow and shoulder room (nevermind whatever waistline you may have), cramped back seats, minimal headroom, etc. These ARE actual experiences. If you like that kind of car, more power to you. For the money, I want comfort and I mean ROOM.

Galo

mentioned that aerlier, sorry I did not catch it...

The sport seats on the E46 are also a tad wider (well, technically, less agressively bolstered) than the E39 sports seats, thereby I guess you do fit, thanks for confirming you did NOT fit in an E39

Enjoy your car...it is sweet!

jjs

I really don't think you need to feel sorry about it. Actually, the contributions about that car are as meaningless as bringing up CL-S's.

4-doors should be compared to 4 doors, coupes to coupes...

jjs

I really don't think you need to feel sorry about it. Actually, the contributions about that car are as meaningless as bringing up CL-S's.

4-doors should be compared to 4 doors, coupes to coupes...

AndyXXL

MAX2000JP

I have to agree and disagree with a lot of your observations.

A. My dad can fit perfectly in a 540i sport and our 330i sport and he is 6'3" and 275 lbs. I can guarentee that you can fit a briefcase back there, so wheres my 10 buck? On a few occasions I have had to sit behind the drivers seat and I am 6'2". Was it particulary comfortable, NO, but it was only for a short distance.

B. The ergonomics are very good as long as you have owned German cars and the past and are used to them.

C. The recirculating ball steering feels a lot better than our overboosted rack and pinion system. My dads 740iL, which had Recirc. ball steering had better feel than my stock Maxima.

Yes a BMW is a better car. Did you not watch the video that they supplied you with when you purchased your Bimmer? The amount of engineering and testing is what makes it cost more. I know for a fact that Nissan DOESNT test their cars remotely as strenuously as BMW.

In conclusion, both cars do the exact same thing, get you from point A to B. The best thing I can think of to get my point across would be to compare a Rolex to something like a TAG. They both do the same thing, but the Rolex is built far more precisely and uses more expensive materials, thus the higher cost.

vito1281

I think in Rolex's case, A LOT of the extra $$ you pay is simply for the name. Obviously if you put diamonds in your watch, then you are paying for materials, but diamonds don't enhance the functionality of the watch.

BMW vs Nissan...as many of us have stated, I don't think anyone said that a Nissan is of the same quality as a BMW. What most of us are saying is that, in most cases, spending another $15-20K on a BMW is not justified when you look at what you're getting for the extra money. Yes, the BMW has more expensive materials (necessarily better? not sure...), more rigourous testing, etc etc, but it's definitely not another $15-20K worth of all that. There's a big chunk of that premium that goes solely to paying for the BMW name. It's a luxury brand, and just like when you buy anything luxury, a fraction (sometimes low, sometimes high) of the price is simply for the name.

vqman

with that statement, we are not saying the same thing, in different words...

I don't consider "very high speed" 45 mph. In regards to handling, you can do things in an M3 that you can't do in a Maxima at all speeds...not just high speeds.

other than that, we are at agreement,

but with an M3, turning left from a stop light...you can take it at much faster speeds...(i know what you're thinkin..."who does that?") I do...and when I had that M3 overnight, I experienced things that later made my 1998 Maxima SE feel like a Ford Taurus.

But despite that, I still ended up getting a 2003 Maxima SE instead of the used M3.

reliability, insurance, size, warranty, .....

But the M3 outhandles the Maxima in more than just "very high speeds".
It outhandles the Maxima at all speeds...

-vq

95bluse

iTrader: (1)

OT..is your car top speed limited? The reason I ask is that I was able to run with a 330Ci up to 140+mph (needle was buried on my 95SE 5-spd), we both backed off...

vito1281

Well, now you're comparing the Maxima to an M car. IMHO, that's not a fair comparison, not only because any of the M's are BMW's finest cars, but also because the M3 is much smaller than the Maxima (even the older 4 door M3), so it's no surprise that it handles better. Again, to bring up the Dodge Neon SRT, it's smaller, and probably handles better than the Maxima just due to its smaller dimensions--what does that say about the Maxima as compared to the SRT? Well, nothing really--they're in two different classes size-wise.

We were mostly talking about the 5 series (except the M5) for comparison. In that case, the Maxima and 530i/540i are of similar size, so handling comparisons would be more valid and logical.

vqman

the closest i've come is the dealer giving me an M3 overnight, I almost bought it, but decided to hold out...

Quote:

One more OBSERVATION, and this one to the 6'5" gentleman who is more comfortable in a 330:
a) five will get you ten that you can barely fit a briefcase between the front seat back and the rear seat and
b) five will get u ten that your knees are scrunched up too much.

When I had my 2003 SE Maxima overnight (i ended up buying it) I also went back to the BMW store one last time...got into a slightly used 330ci...I am sure the 6'5" guy couldn't get a briefcase behind his seat (i'm 6'3") and I couldn't...

BUT, because the way the seat sits so low, you're legs are stretched out straight, and there isn't really any knee cramping...

Quote:

How do I know? One of the fave mods on the E39 board was to remove the spacer in the seat tracks to allow the front seat to slide back another inch because AS IT CAME FROM THE FACTORY A PERSON OVER 6'4" COULD NOT GET THE SEAT FAR BACK ENOUGH TO FIT HIS LARGE FRAME without wrapping his knees around the steering wheel. You wanna tell me a 3-series can accomodate a driver a Fiver cant?

Another OBSERVATION: The ergonomics on a Fiver suck. If you set the seat to accomodate the clutch -fully depress it, as one should- the gas pedal is too close forcing one's leg to be unnaturaly crunched up. The Sports seats 'pinch' those who are maybe 38" in waist or larger. Not me, I'm 31" waist but...ohh, you should see how many folks on the E39 board were trying to swap seats.

but it still drives like a SOB.

Quote:

Another OBSERVATION: the recirculating ball steering of the V8 540 (cant fit the rack and pinion because of the larger engine) SUCKS compared to the Maxes rack & pinion.

Bottom line: the Fiver is a great car, for sure. Has its good and bad things like any other car. Is it worth $15k more than the Max

Nope. Observation, not opinion

that's an opinion.

-vq

AndyXXL

Yes, it's limited to 128 mph. The only thing that removes the limiter is Dinan engine software, which I'm getting this summer