Tapio

My 98 has been garaged for a long time. Every once in a while I'd start it up and let it run and it always ran like a champ when I drove it daily. Now that I don't its been one problem after another. First the fuel pump, then the starter died and now this...

The engine will crank but doesnt sound like its even remotely close to turning over. It makes a scatchy, whining sound when its cranking and that's it. I had it towed to the local shop and they told me theres no compression at all and they think its a broken timing chain and if that was the case then I could probably tack on bent valves and a slew of other problems. He didn't even bother to mention a repair price and said I need a whole new engine which he quoted me around $3,200.

There's no chance I'm paying that as the car is barely worth more and I'm looking to sell it as it is. I have 0 faith in this shop as it is because they tried to charge me $900 for a new fuel pump but its the only one anywhere close to me so I normally take it there for diagnosis and fix it myself.

I've done a little research and from the sound I'm hearing, what he's telling me sounds about right (with the timing chain and all). Would a broken one cause all that damage and does it automatically mean that there will be all that damage once they get inside? I was going to have it towed to the dealership for a second opinion but at this point I have no idea what to do.

Here's a video I took when I thought the starter was going bad.

http://www.youtube.com/user/tapiozon.../0/vhlrJNBTzVY

The car is making the same sound now. I replaced it after getting some feedback from here and it did semi-fix the problem. The car did manage to start after but it wasn't a clean start and made that noise for about 3 seconds before it did...didn't take long before the car didnt start at all again. I replaced the starter this weekend incase it was that but it didn't change anything.

Any ideas? Am I screwed? If it does come to an engine swap are there cheaper routes than 3,200 and if so how do I go about finding them?

Thanks

i30dvr

iTrader: (6)

honestly u can get someone on the org to do a swap for way less than 3k....i know tavarish and tj max do 3.0/dek and 3.5 swaps for reasonable prices....i know tavarish will do it for 2k installed and that includes motor/labor etc....where r u located?

Tapio

That'd be fantastic. The thought of any repair shop or dealership doing something like that bothers me. (I've yet to ever find an honest repair shop). I still may take it somewhere for a second opinion but I dont think I can honestly trust any shop or dealership unless I know something working there.

I'm in Phoenix and actually have an I30 if that makes a difference at all.

dan1el

Tapio,
I've never heard of the chain breaking before, and I've seen and felt it and can't see it just snapping. At any rate, take the ornament cover off (it is the part that says "NISSAN V6 3000". It's just a plastic cover with 4 allen bolts. I think they are like 5mm. Then remove the harness connectors from the ignition coils on the front bank. Then remove the 10x 12mm bolts from the front valve cover. This will reveal the cams.

From here you can get a big ratchet or breaker bar and get a 19mm socket. Stick it on the crankshaft pulley bolt and turn slowly clockwise. Stop if you feel any resistance. Get a friend or a camera to look at the cams. If the chain is in tact, then it should turn the cams as you turn the crank. Otherwise you have a problem.

Feldman

iTrader: (1)

I would check local nissan forums or try and find an orger in town to do your swap if you arent up to it. I bet you can find someone to do a vq30 swap for $500-800 plus the cost of an engine which should be around $400-600 a vq35 swap will run you a bit more

I am a bit skeptical of the broken chain diagnosis though, i have only heard of a few timing chains breaking on these engines

TLMNICK

iTrader: (1)

Honestly, that sounds like a bad starter (based on the video) I know you just replaced it, but it sounds like the starter motor is running, but not engaging with the flywheel. If the starter doesn't engage with the flywheel, then you'll get that high pitched whining noise during crank (that's just the starter motor spinning freely with no load from the engine).

Even if your timing chain was broken...the engine should still turn over, it just won't run.....and you'd hear A LOT more racket than what's in your video. I'd get a new starter again....ESPECIALLY if it was a rebuild, or used unit you installed.

Feldman

iTrader: (1)

Thats what i thought to but he wrote that this is the video from when his starter was bad. not sure how it applies to this situation. I also was thinking that the engine should turn over if the chain was broken but then realized the piston could be wedged against a valve.

I had a hard time following what exactly was going on. Maybe the OP wants to try and re-explain the problem. A current video would probably help too

Tapio

Thanks for all the responses...

Dan1el - I managed to find an honest mechanic here in Phoenix who came recommended by a friend. He's saying pretty much everything you guys are above, especially about a timing chain breaking and will do a free diagnostic because he said it'd be easy to find out if its the timing chain. I printed out your instructions to give to him so it'll make his life a little easier (I'd do it myself but the car is sitting at the first mechanic waiting to be towed to the new one later tonight).

Feldman - I used to frequent the forums daily but it's been a while so i'll have to search and see where I can find a vq30 engine and especially at that price. More importantly where to find a forum regular who'd be willing to help me out for the right price (what you quoted above would be amazing, especially compared to what the dealerships and first mechanic quoted...(dealership was 8,200 for an engine swap..I almost crapped myself)).

TLMNICK - That's what a couple buddies of mine said too based on the sound..that it's the starter. It's just hard to imagine that 2 autozone starters would both be bad but I guess it wouldnt hurt to change it again..it didnt take to long the second go round so the third should be a breeze.


Hopefully the problem ends up being something else and I can avoid all this but I'd like to plan for the worst at the same time. I told the mechanic that I was gonna stop by and decide what to do (I had no intention of ever saying I wanted to go thorugh with it but was afraid they may break the car before I got there so they wouldn't look stupid if I got a second opinion). I mentioned to the guy at the front desk who I dealt with that I was going to just sell it for parts and he instantly wanted to buy it so that made me wonder. The whole business seems shady. There were 2 other people in the lobby yelling at the salesmen for the outrageous bills.

Tapio

Just to clarify, that video I posted was from a few months back when the car wouldn't start. Most everyone said it sounded like a bad starter so I switched it out and the car managed to start (though it still had troubles). After a few starts (over a couple weeks time because I don't drive the car daily) the car wouldn't turn over again. It just made the same sound it did originally so I figured the starter I had bought was defective. I took it to autozone because it had a lifetime warranty and they ran a test on it which said the starter was working fine. The guy was nice and still replaced it with a different one and after installing nothing has changed.

Even though the video is old I posted it because thats the exact sound the car is making now. (or very very similar at least).

I'm so hoping it's just the starter but the mechanic said there was no compression at all and he couldnt get the piston to return which led him to his conclusion about my current predicament.

Sorry if I was vague in my earlier posts and thanks again for any help

JSutter

iTrader: (46)

Thats a bad starter in the vid. FWIW I bought a remaned starter a few years ago. It started the car 90% of the time for about a year. Very similar noise when it wouldnt start. Then it went down hill quick. I swapped it for another. 1 week of perfect starting then it locked up. 3rd one as been good. SO it can take a few tries to get a correctly rebuilt unit.

As for a broken chain, what a bunch of 'tools' at that shop. They seem to be pretty incompetent with such an easy diagnosis. Car-Part has listings of local auto recyclers with used motors, check there. 3.0l go for $400 or so. I cant believe anyone would recommend a NEW motor.

kushane

Have someone crank the engine and watch if any of the drive belts or the pulley is turning. That should tell if the starter is engaging the flywheel. If it is, then open the oil filler cap and see if the cam or any of the valves are working and if it isn't, then you have a broken timing chain.

I am with Feldman on this one, higly unlikely its the timing chain.

SiathLinux

You should not be surprised to get bad product from AutoZone. From everything you've said - get another starter - and check your electrical

nhaven

Give the starter a good whack. See if it starts.

1992maximase30

you know what would've helped : if your oil pressure light worked.
if the engine crank at all for that long the oil light should flicker or something.
i stopped and thought that maybe the chain broke due to the lack of it being rarely started.
but it kinda sounds like the starter motor is free running.
and i have heard guys here lately having trouble with replacement starters.

ImmaSquashYou

iTrader: (7)

i've gotten 3 bad starters from pepboys and 3 bad axles from napa. I honestly can't tell if its just a bad starter or not. But changing a starter takes an hour if you're rusty and haven't done it in a while. A bad starter can def happen.

defiance

iTrader: (1)

It could be a lot of things but everything points to the starter. In the video it sounds like its not hooked up to the flywheel, is it installed correctly at all ?

It could be yet another bad starter, when you buy after market it really is luck of the draw (that's why they give you the lifetime warranty ! )

Check that install
Or get a new starter.

Tapio

Is there any way I could have installed the starter wrong? The thing slipped into the opening real easy and I managed to get both bolts to go in very smooth and tightened with almost no problems. Not sure how to double check the install. The power wire connected to the terminal which sits higher up and I believe the ground (negative?) from the starter connected into the other terminal which sits lower and to the left.

Then the little black wire with the plug at the end plugged into its counterpart from the car.

nhaven

After further review of your video, it sounded to me like you have a weak/dying battery.

ajm8127

iTrader: (8)

I doubt you installed the starter wrong. The gear on the starter does not make contact with the teeth on the flywheel all the time. There is a mechanism inside the starter that moves the gear out, and meshes it with the flywheel whenever you power the starter. I think that is what most people think the problem is. Were you able to confirm that the accessory belts rotate when the starter is running?

cashoit

Saw the video and you guys have never popped a chain a max before i see.

Yo man, i broke the chain on my 3rd gen max and thats EXACTLY what a broken chain sounds like. Or any broken timing belt for that that matter. Valves bent, smoke out the tailpipe, engine busted. From the video it doesnt even sound like the engine cranking.

When my chain broken it was cuz of a bad tensioner. BUT it took 2 years for that chain to snap. In the end my engine sound like a helicopter from all the chain slack lol.

3000 is WAYYYYYYYY too expensive. get a used motor for like 300-400. More if u buy online cuz of delivery charge and drop a new engine in there.

Good luck man

Edit:

Re-read yur posts. If the chain was broken orignally then the car would have not started even when u replaced starter. U wd have a starter tryin to turn over flywheel and the inertia of tryin to turn over a crankshaft with no engine combustion help. I really dont see how yur engine would run. It would TRY to turn over but wouldnt. No compression would mean stuck open cylinders.

dan1el

I know the broken chain is highly unlikely, but you really don’t want to crank that thing until you make sure the chain is not broken. Take it from me as I killed 2 cylinders because of cranking the starter while the timing was off. $400 and 14 hours of mine and my bro in law’s life I’m half way through replacing the cylinder head. Just make sure that chain is turning the cams by cranking by hand or having the 2nd mech look at it.

ajm8127

iTrader: (8)

Valid concern, but considering that he has been cranking it with the starter, or trying too, any damage from a broken chain has already been done.

njmaxseltd

iTrader: (19)

Open the hood, have somebody try to start the engine.

Do the drive belts and accessories turn?
NO - Replace the starter
YES - Open the oil cap, have somebody try to start the engine.
Can you see the camshaft turn?
NO - You need a new motor
YES - Find a mechanic that can troubleshoot further.

The video definately sounds like the engine is turning over with no compression.
Odd thing is you said it started and ran a few times. The TC doesn't just break sitting there, normally a chain breaks while the engine is running causing it to come to a screaching hault.

cashoit

Agreed. Once he tried to crank it was goodnight, that IF the chain is broken.

Op,

We need more info here cuz this is a good mystery . Without a bad tensionr or chain guide, i dont see how the chain broke in the first place. Why was the car sitting? was the engine unusually loud before?

dan1el

Haha. I should have thought of that! I’m here telling him to take the VC off and all he has to do is get a flashlight and remove the oil cap. Sometimes the org makes me feel stupid. I guess that is a good thing though lol. It means I’m learning.

dan1el

Valid point. But I’m a sissy, so I still would turn by hand to check just in case. I cranked on mine for weeks before realizing the timing was off and I only hurt 2 cylinders. Maybe if I only cranked a few times I might have been ok. Maybe not, but It’s worth my 5 minutes to crank by hand just to be safe.

cashoit

definitely if he turn crankshaft and CAMs dont turn chain is broke.

[s3]

iTrader: (1)

Timing chains on the VQ30 are not on the list of things that I've personally seen crap out easily.

I've seen motors with over 200k mileage and on the original timing chain.

You need to put some good effort into breaking these timing chains.

trooplewis

iTrader: (1)

Best advice I've seen for awhile.

If it's not a broken chain, I would get all over Yelp and equivalent about that mechanic's original diagnoses.

Tapio

Well here's the latest update. I had the car towed to a different shop which came highly recommended (Fairway Auto Service, Phoenix, AZ).
Took the guy all of 3 minutes to figure out it wasnt a broken timing chain. I let him have all the time he needed to figure out the problem and not long after he had it narrowed down to the fuel pump.. They got the infiniti to start by pouring gas directly into the engine and the pump had power but it wasn't doing anything.....
This is the same pump, the original repair shop (Fletcher's Tire and Auto, Laveen AZ) apparently replaced last time i was in there. I've driven 2 miles on that fuel pump
sooo.....
He told me my fuel pump was broken last year...
He wanted 1000 to install the pump because its burried deep inside the engine...
I raise hell and tell him its under the rear set and he knows it.....
He agreed to repair the fuel pump for around 450.

I take the car home and after 2-3 starts its dead again. This time I think its the starter so I replace it and it starts a few times...sits a while longer and then nothing.
Replace the starter again and nothing once more.

Take car back to Fletchers.
Fletchers says there is no compression in the engine..valves are bent, chain is broken, pistons are seized and shaft isn't turning at all...aka, I need a new engine..
Fletcher manager says he wants to buy my car when i told him i would sell it as salvage...he's very persistent.
I told him I was gonna tow it home to think about it but instead towed it to another repair shop.
New repair shop calls me and tells me that the timing chain is fine and that Fletchers are nuts, blind, or thieves.
New repair shop narrows it down to the fuel pump as the problem.
I tell new repair shop that the fuel pump in there has maybe 2-5 miles on it.
They tell me the pump is old, has a nissan logo and numbers and theres absolutely no way it only has 2 miles on it..

Soooo to sum it up...I took my car to shop 1 for a fuel pump..they pick their butts and try to rip me off for 1000 but only rip me for 450. About a year passes with 2 miles driven on the car in that time, and I take my car to shop 1 because it wont start. They tell me it's because my timing chain has broken and the engine is shot at this point....Estimate.....3200. Move the car to shop 2 who tells me that the problem is with the fuel pump and not the timing chain. The same fuel pump that shop 1 supposedly installed (2 miles ago) but actually didnt because its the same one which came with the car.

Now I have the new mechanic fixing the fuel pump, and other minor parts.

What I want to know is how can I get vengeance on these pieces of ****. Any ideas are welcome.

sergofast

iTrader: (22)

wow.....just wow....

and that is why...13 years ago at 15 years of age i taught myself to fix my own crap....after a very similar mechanic experience

best thing you can really do, is the better business burrow, and small claims court. you could also generate negative publicity and call your local news station, have all of your receipts and quotes together and be very detailed so they can build a quality report (or your lawyer can build a good case)

Str0mz0r

Agreed. What a joke, I don't know how people can live with themselves as they lie and cheat their way through life.

cashoit

Sucks man...keep us posted on the results. If it is the chain then it will be much cheaper to drop a new engine in it.

1992maximase30

^^^ i think he said the new shop told him he needed a fuel pump. then he said no way that pump has 2 miles on it. then the shop said there's no way becuase this has a nissan logo on it.

i think you could get your money back.
if you have a reciept also. then a written documentation from the new shop stating details about the old pump.
i know to some may be too much of a hassle. but $450...i would pursue it.

[s3]

iTrader: (1)

"He wanted 1000 to install the pump because its burried deep inside the engine..."

I would have ran out of that shop tires smoking as fast as I could if I heard that.

Goomz

iTrader: (1)

**** that man call the bbb, better business bureau and see what they can do for their incompetence (or bs)

and they prolly in all actuality swapped out the fuel pump relay, banged on the fuel pump to get it running temporarily and sent u home.

cashoit

thas horrible a shop wd do that...but honestly replacing a fuel pump aint that hard. OP, There is a how-to i think use that to make sure pump is changed.

Tapio

Sorry if my last post didn't make much sense. I was rather angry and had been drinking a bit because of it so it came out rather confusing. I went back and tried to clean it up a little bit.
I'm going to start by posting complaints on all the online sources I can find from the BBB, to Ripoff Report, to Google.

What I also want to do is make a huge sign summing up my encounters with Fletchers Tire and Auto and attach it to my trailer which I'll park in the bank parking lot outside Fletchers (you need to pass through the bank lot to get to Fletchers). I have a feeling they'd vandalize it but maybe if I just leave it there on Saturdays during the day I should be ok.

Another idea i had was to hire a sign spinner and make my own sign "We rip you off", etc and pay him to stand outside on Saturday and do his thing.

The last two ideas may seem corney but I'm so pissed off that they can do something like that. I'm going to see if my new mechanic is willing to vouch/verify that the fuel pump in there is the original or at the very least not one with 2 miles on it and see if I can take this to small claims court. I don't know if I have my original receipts for the fuel pump and work done so I'm not sure how I'd proove it otherwise.

1992maximase30

that last one to me is a golden ticket to your money back...even more!
stop and think about it, it's kinda like pain and suffering.

ffcbairn

LOL this is exactly how I got into doing my own car repairs. First car I ever owned was a Saturn, at some point it stopped starting. I took it to a shop who told me they "scoped" the engine and the timing chain was broke, wanted thousands for repair. I had the car towed home where it sat for 6 months. Finally I had saved up money (was still in HS at the time) to get it fixed. Had it towed to a different shop. He called me 30 minutes later said he swapped spark plugs and it was good to go.

That was the last time I had my car to a shop other than for tires. Even those I am prone to online ordering and just paying to have them mounted.

I don't like to stereotype, obviously there are some honest mechanics as the one who changed the plugs knew I was expecting to have to replace the engine and I wouldn't have questioned it at that point, but I swear most autoshops are nests of scheming thieves.