Cranking but won't start. Cam vs. Crank
02-06-2010, 08:43 PM
#1
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 223
Cranking but won't start. Cam vs. Crank
Ok I just got the car back together today after replacing the 2 o rings behind the rear timing chain case and the guide and tensioner while I was in there. Before the job, the car started perfectly fine. Now the car won't start. It cranks strong and steadily all day, but no start. If my wife cranks and I stand in front I can hear a loud click/know from around the passenger side of the upper intake manifold while it's cranking.
I am 99% sure I got the timing gear all in correctly; I cleaned and marked them all with sharpies so I got the cams, the sprockets and the chains all in exactly the same place as when I opened it up. There is a very small possibility that the crankshaft sprocket was one link off when I got it put together, but the markings I made were only about 1 mm off, so I don't think so. When I crank even for a few minutes, I can't smell any gas at all. I had to remove the crank position sensors and the cam sensor to do the o rings. The FSM and the org says crank with no start likely points to the cam or crank sensor, so I figure I would start there. I'm definitely tight on cash, so I wanted to try narrowing it down to find out which sensor it is. I have a few questions:
1-Can someone give or point me to a detailed description of how and in what order the crank and cam sensors work? I need to know exactly what they do and in what order. I'm a very new mechanic, but very experienced with diagnostics in general (computer programming and stuff). So if I can find out the function then I may be able to pinpoint the culprit.
2-If gas was being released properly, but I get no ignition, would I be able to smell gas from the front with the hood open right after cranking for a while?
3-If I don't smell any gas, does that mean the cam sensor is not telling the computer to send fuel? Or does the cam sensor not start working until the crank sensor tells the computer it has fount TDC?
4-When I was taking the upper oil pan off (about 1 AM since I work a day job) I pried with enough pressure to actually break the pry point off the pan before realizing that the crank sensor between pan and tranny was still in place. Is it toast or could it survive that?
5-The cam sensor definitely got moved and messed with more often as I was working on that side with PS pump, alternator, both TC covers and all the timing gear. How easy is it to jack that sensor up?
6-If I have the timing even a milimeter off, could the car not start? From what I have read, if the timing is off it should start but run like poop.
Any help will be greatly appreciated. Man I was super stoked about getting the thing back together but not starting is kind of worse than an oil leak lol.
I am 99% sure I got the timing gear all in correctly; I cleaned and marked them all with sharpies so I got the cams, the sprockets and the chains all in exactly the same place as when I opened it up. There is a very small possibility that the crankshaft sprocket was one link off when I got it put together, but the markings I made were only about 1 mm off, so I don't think so. When I crank even for a few minutes, I can't smell any gas at all. I had to remove the crank position sensors and the cam sensor to do the o rings. The FSM and the org says crank with no start likely points to the cam or crank sensor, so I figure I would start there. I'm definitely tight on cash, so I wanted to try narrowing it down to find out which sensor it is. I have a few questions:
1-Can someone give or point me to a detailed description of how and in what order the crank and cam sensors work? I need to know exactly what they do and in what order. I'm a very new mechanic, but very experienced with diagnostics in general (computer programming and stuff). So if I can find out the function then I may be able to pinpoint the culprit.
2-If gas was being released properly, but I get no ignition, would I be able to smell gas from the front with the hood open right after cranking for a while?
3-If I don't smell any gas, does that mean the cam sensor is not telling the computer to send fuel? Or does the cam sensor not start working until the crank sensor tells the computer it has fount TDC?
4-When I was taking the upper oil pan off (about 1 AM since I work a day job) I pried with enough pressure to actually break the pry point off the pan before realizing that the crank sensor between pan and tranny was still in place. Is it toast or could it survive that?
5-The cam sensor definitely got moved and messed with more often as I was working on that side with PS pump, alternator, both TC covers and all the timing gear. How easy is it to jack that sensor up?
6-If I have the timing even a milimeter off, could the car not start? From what I have read, if the timing is off it should start but run like poop.
Any help will be greatly appreciated. Man I was super stoked about getting the thing back together but not starting is kind of worse than an oil leak lol.
Last edited by dan1el; 02-08-2010 at 11:29 AM.
02-08-2010, 10:08 AM
#3
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 223
And,
8- I've been reading in the Engine Control section of FSM. It seems to me that if the crank sensor (POS) between oil pan and tranny were good and the cam sensor was bad, the car would fire when it finds TDC on piston #1 and then die immediately since the cam sensor doesn't tell the ECU when to send fuel. Am I right? This makes me think the crank (POS) is bad. Or will wither one of those sensors crapping out make it crank with no fire at all?
9-I have read that if the wire harness is not seated completely then the sensors may not work. On the passenger side of the engine bay, I was unable to get the harness to clip onto the rear metal prong below (aproximate area). So it's just sitting on top of it for now. Could this really cause a bad connection?
8- I've been reading in the Engine Control section of FSM. It seems to me that if the crank sensor (POS) between oil pan and tranny were good and the cam sensor was bad, the car would fire when it finds TDC on piston #1 and then die immediately since the cam sensor doesn't tell the ECU when to send fuel. Am I right? This makes me think the crank (POS) is bad. Or will wither one of those sensors crapping out make it crank with no fire at all?
9-I have read that if the wire harness is not seated completely then the sensors may not work. On the passenger side of the engine bay, I was unable to get the harness to clip onto the rear metal prong below (aproximate area). So it's just sitting on top of it for now. Could this really cause a bad connection?
Last edited by dan1el; 02-08-2010 at 11:29 AM.
02-08-2010, 10:56 AM
#4
Member who somehow became The President of The SE-L Club
iTrader: (19)
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 16,033
1) Cam sensor only tells when to fire the injectors. The car will run off of signals from both crank sensors if the cam sensor is faulty.
If the cam sensor is BAD it wont start. If is faulty it still wont start!!!
If the cam sensor is BAD it wont start. If is faulty it still wont start!!!
Last edited by JAY25; 02-23-2010 at 03:48 PM.
02-08-2010, 11:00 AM
#5
Member
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 263
A faulty crankshaft position sensor can cause a no-start. Did you test it (I think that involves moving a screwdriver toward the tip and measuring the voltage)? Is the sensor tip clean? Is the electrical connector tight and clean?
That connector you circled is for one of the front O2 sensors. It doesn't matter whether it's slid onto that metal clip or not, as long as the connector itself is tight (did the tab click when you connected it?).
That connector you circled is for one of the front O2 sensors. It doesn't matter whether it's slid onto that metal clip or not, as long as the connector itself is tight (did the tab click when you connected it?).
02-08-2010, 11:20 AM
#6
Member
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 235
personally this is how i would go about this
check codes
check for spark- pull one coil out and put it near metal/ground
check for fuel - for the pump
check the timing marks (i think they are on the crank pully and on the cam gears)
1-cant help you there
2-no, it would come out the tail pipe
3- not sure
4- might be okay ther eis a way to test it
5- were the wires being pulled on?
6- not sure
7-yes check for codes
8- my understanding is it cuts off spark not fuel (i think, dont quote me on this, the ecm will only cut spark never fuel)
9-i think that refers to seated when mating not so much mounting unless the mount is a ground for that plug
check codes
check for spark- pull one coil out and put it near metal/ground
check for fuel - for the pump
check the timing marks (i think they are on the crank pully and on the cam gears)
1-cant help you there
2-no, it would come out the tail pipe
3- not sure
4- might be okay ther eis a way to test it
5- were the wires being pulled on?
6- not sure
7-yes check for codes
8- my understanding is it cuts off spark not fuel (i think, dont quote me on this, the ecm will only cut spark never fuel)
9-i think that refers to seated when mating not so much mounting unless the mount is a ground for that plug
02-08-2010, 11:21 AM
#7
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 223
1) Cam sensor only tells when to fire the injectors. The car will run off of signals from both crank sensors if the cam sensor is faulty.
2) Pull a spark plug, you'll both see and smell the gas
3) See #1 answer
4) Test it.
5) Test it.
6) I would think the car could start, run poorly and throw a CEL
7) Yes, I believe it will find the fault but a real time scanner will show the fault for sure.
8) See #1
9) Make sure no pins are bent or broken, that connector definately should button up solid and this could very well be your problem.
Good luck!
2) Pull a spark plug, you'll both see and smell the gas
3) See #1 answer
4) Test it.
5) Test it.
6) I would think the car could start, run poorly and throw a CEL
7) Yes, I believe it will find the fault but a real time scanner will show the fault for sure.
8) See #1
9) Make sure no pins are bent or broken, that connector definately should button up solid and this could very well be your problem.
Good luck!
All you told me I think points me to my original conclusion that CKPS (POS) is not working either because the sensor is bad or the wires are shorted or something. I'm going to borrow a scanner since I can't get it to Autozone, and retighten the grounds (I only disconnected the ones next to the intake manifold), and then I'll check codes and resistance of both sensors.
Thanks a lot for all the help, Dan
Last edited by dan1el; 02-08-2010 at 11:23 AM.
02-08-2010, 11:26 AM
#8
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 223
A faulty crankshaft position sensor can cause a no-start. Did you test it (I think that involves moving a screwdriver toward the tip and measuring the voltage)? Is the sensor tip clean? Is the electrical connector tight and clean?
That connector you circled is for one of the front O2 sensors. It doesn't matter whether it's slid onto that metal clip or not, as long as the connector itself is tight (did the tab click when you connected it?).
That connector you circled is for one of the front O2 sensors. It doesn't matter whether it's slid onto that metal clip or not, as long as the connector itself is tight (did the tab click when you connected it?).
As for the connector I circled, I wasn't trying to highlight the O2 sensor lol. That is perfectly fine, but there is a metal clip/bracket thing that the harness its self snaps onto. This is what is not connected. I can't imagine that this would break the circuit, but I read something about it that suggested it could. I'll make sure to seat it on there anyway just in case.
Thanks a lot, Dan
02-08-2010, 11:34 AM
#9
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 223
personally this is how i would go about this
check codes
check for spark- pull one coil out and put it near metal/ground
check for fuel - for the pump
check the timing marks (i think they are on the crank pully and on the cam gears)
1-cant help you there
2-no, it would come out the tail pipe
3- not sure
4- might be okay ther eis a way to test it
5- were the wires being pulled on?
6- not sure
7-yes check for codes
8- my understanding is it cuts off spark not fuel (i think, dont quote me on this, the ecm will only cut spark never fuel)
9-i think that refers to seated when mating not so much mounting unless the mount is a ground for that plug
check codes
check for spark- pull one coil out and put it near metal/ground
check for fuel - for the pump
check the timing marks (i think they are on the crank pully and on the cam gears)
1-cant help you there
2-no, it would come out the tail pipe
3- not sure
4- might be okay ther eis a way to test it
5- were the wires being pulled on?
6- not sure
7-yes check for codes
8- my understanding is it cuts off spark not fuel (i think, dont quote me on this, the ecm will only cut spark never fuel)
9-i think that refers to seated when mating not so much mounting unless the mount is a ground for that plug
02-08-2010, 12:06 PM
#10
Member
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 263
As for the connector I circled, I wasn't trying to highlight the O2 sensor lol. That is perfectly fine, but there is a metal clip/bracket thing that the harness its self snaps onto. This is what is not connected. I can't imagine that this would break the circuit, but I read something about it that suggested it could. I'll make sure to seat it on there anyway just in case.
02-08-2010, 12:32 PM
#11
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 223
Yes, I think I know which one you're talking about, and that's the O2 sensor connector that slides onto that bracket. Regardless, the only thing that matters is if the two sides of the connector are tightly connected. If it's supposed to clip onto a bracket and doesn't, that's irrelevant. Maybe it will eventually vibrate apart, but that's all. Zip tie it.
02-08-2010, 12:55 PM
#12
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Worcester, MA
Posts: 4,011
Daniel,
If u didnt pull the engine i dont see how the CKPS REF could have gotten damged. Its no where near the Timing chain cover. Which leads me to the CPS or CKPS POS. THe CPS is easy to diagnos with a multimeter. The CKPS is a lil harder to diagnos cuz u need someone to crank the engine while u test the sensor. Make sure all the connectors are fully connected anywhere u were workin. Must be a loose wire somewhere.
If u didnt pull the engine i dont see how the CKPS REF could have gotten damged. Its no where near the Timing chain cover. Which leads me to the CPS or CKPS POS. THe CPS is easy to diagnos with a multimeter. The CKPS is a lil harder to diagnos cuz u need someone to crank the engine while u test the sensor. Make sure all the connectors are fully connected anywhere u were workin. Must be a loose wire somewhere.
02-08-2010, 01:59 PM
#13
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 223
Daniel,
If u didnt pull the engine i dont see how the CKPS REF could have gotten damged. Its no where near the Timing chain cover. Which leads me to the CPS or CKPS POS. THe CPS is easy to diagnos with a multimeter. The CKPS is a lil harder to diagnos cuz u need someone to crank the engine while u test the sensor. Make sure all the connectors are fully connected anywhere u were workin. Must be a loose wire somewhere.
If u didnt pull the engine i dont see how the CKPS REF could have gotten damged. Its no where near the Timing chain cover. Which leads me to the CPS or CKPS POS. THe CPS is easy to diagnos with a multimeter. The CKPS is a lil harder to diagnos cuz u need someone to crank the engine while u test the sensor. Make sure all the connectors are fully connected anywhere u were workin. Must be a loose wire somewhere.
To make sure I had a good seal, I followed FSM and removed upper oil pan and re-sealed it after doing the TC covers. When I was prying down on the upper oil pan, I broke off a piece of the pry point before I realized the CKPS (POS) was still in 'DOH! That's how I may have damaged it. But it doesn't look damaged at all, and it's pretty dang clean, so I don't know for sure. I'll just have to hope the codes and the ohmmeter can help.
Thanks for the point about cranking while I ohm the CKPS. I've never done it before, but my boss who is lending me the ohmmeter should be able to help me out since he's an electrical engineer.
If The sensors are OK, then the only other thing I would suspect is I bent the wires to far or something causing a short. Anyone know how much $ and how hard it is to replace wire harness?
02-08-2010, 05:43 PM
#14
Member
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 263
I gotcha. I know it's not the one that holds the O2 sensor, but I understand what you're saying... it shouldn't matter as long as the sensor its self is connected. I would post a picture to clarify what I'm talking about, but I don't think its important. Anyway, thanks for the help, and I'll update once I get her started.
You can see it's pulled off the bracket in this picture. Yes, it's not near the O2 sensor but it is the connector for it. Like you said, doesn't really matter.
02-08-2010, 05:56 PM
#15
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 223
UPDATE:
I retightened the grounds, and it did nothing.
I tried testing the plugs to see if I am getting a spark, but I couldn't get anything. Hopefully I am doing it wrong. I removed the ornament cover>removed the coil #2>removed the plug>put the plug back into the coil as far as I could>touched the end of the plug to the ground wire between banks and to the frame, and I got nothing. Then I turned the ignition to on and still nothing. What am I doing wrong? Or am I really not getting a spark?
I did smell plenty of gas when I removed the coil and plug, so obviously it's a problem with the spark, but I can't be sure where. If I am not getting any spark manually, then my problem may not be a sensor at all.
Please help me test for spark.
Last edited by dan1el; 02-08-2010 at 05:59 PM.
02-08-2010, 06:56 PM
#17
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 223
Not a dumb question. I just started doing my own car work about 2 months ago, and I didn't know that I have to crank it to check for a spark. I will try that. I appreciate it,
02-09-2010, 04:40 AM
#21
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Worcester, MA
Posts: 4,011
If u lined up everythin correct then i think mechanically you are fine. This is an electrical issue. So hard to troubleshoot man. Jus look arround the engine bay and test for continuity per the FSM. Also check grounds as well. I believe the PCM harness as well as the fuel injector connector is near the timing chain cover. Then there is the wires that bend around the passenger strut tower too. Have fun brotha ugh
02-09-2010, 08:32 AM
#22
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 223
No I haven’t pulled them. I am borrowing my buddy’s scanner today to pull codes this evening.
A couple more ?’s:
10-Will the plugs give me a spark if the CKPS is bad? I thought the CKPS tells the computer when and where to send spark. I got a spark from cylinder #4 so if the CKPS is what controls when to send a spark, it would seem to indicate that the sensor is not the problem.
11-I know plenty of fuel is being released at crank because I got fuel sprayed on me when testing my plugs for spark. So my ? is if there is fuel and spark, then what could be causing the engine not to start? Depending on the answer to #11 I would say timing of spark. But I don’t know.
A couple more ?’s:
10-Will the plugs give me a spark if the CKPS is bad? I thought the CKPS tells the computer when and where to send spark. I got a spark from cylinder #4 so if the CKPS is what controls when to send a spark, it would seem to indicate that the sensor is not the problem.
11-I know plenty of fuel is being released at crank because I got fuel sprayed on me when testing my plugs for spark. So my ? is if there is fuel and spark, then what could be causing the engine not to start? Depending on the answer to #11 I would say timing of spark. But I don’t know.
02-09-2010, 08:47 AM
#23
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Worcester, MA
Posts: 4,011
At startup, the CKPS REF tells the computer when the cyl 1 is at TDC. CKPS POS tells the computer engine speed. CPS tells the computer cylinder postion.
Its prolly CPS man. Jus replace it. 50 bucks i think. U can test its resistance and test the wire providing power to the sensor itself. Its an electrical issue so u have to make sure the wires and connectors are all sound.
Its prolly CPS man. Jus replace it. 50 bucks i think. U can test its resistance and test the wire providing power to the sensor itself. Its an electrical issue so u have to make sure the wires and connectors are all sound.
02-11-2010, 10:21 PM
#24
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 223
I pulled a P0340 "Camshaft Position Sensor Circuit Failure". I borrowed an OHMmeter and I got 1540 from my cam sensor so I think it's good. It also looks perfectly fine. So I don't really know where to go from here. The to wires in the connector for the sensor go to the ECM but I don't know where it is or how to access it. Should I unwrap the whole wire harness to replace the pair of wires? Or what? Any ideas? I know I could splice to the headlight like Yota did lol. But I want to know how to do it right. I have the FSM but don't know where to look. Please help. already a week with no start. AHHHH!
02-12-2010, 07:02 AM
#25
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Worcester, MA
Posts: 4,011
CHeck the CPS wiring subharness too. Might have to bypass it with wire. yea man...u shd trace the wire back to the power source or ECM. Its not the sensor so its the harness. Try wiring directly to sensor too. THe CEL is tellin u where to look so got start there first.
Check grounds too
Check grounds too
Last edited by cashoit; 02-12-2010 at 07:08 AM.
02-12-2010, 07:16 AM
#27
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 223
CHeck the CPS wiring subharness too. Might have to bypass it with wire. yea man...u shd trace the wire back to the power source or ECM. Its not the sensor so its the harness. Try wiring directly to sensor too. THe CEL is tellin u where to look so got start there first.
Check grounds too
Check grounds too
What kind of wire should I use? I don't even know how hot it gets in the engine bay so I don't know how to select a wire type.
02-12-2010, 07:56 AM
#28
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Worcester, MA
Posts: 4,011
Any 12guauge wire that is shielded should be fine. Jus have to trace from CPS to ECM
U cd prolly jus tap from a live 12 v wire in the fuse box closet to that side of the engine. I believe the wire for fogs is always hot...or run wire from the battery to the CPS itself. if u got any extra fuses put it inline to protect the sensor. 5Amp fuse shd be good.
Gotta test to see if u gettin power to the CPS. U got a test light?
U cd prolly jus tap from a live 12 v wire in the fuse box closet to that side of the engine. I believe the wire for fogs is always hot...or run wire from the battery to the CPS itself. if u got any extra fuses put it inline to protect the sensor. 5Amp fuse shd be good.
Gotta test to see if u gettin power to the CPS. U got a test light?
Last edited by cashoit; 02-12-2010 at 08:01 AM.
02-12-2010, 03:37 PM
#29
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 223
Any 12guauge wire that is shielded should be fine. Jus have to trace from CPS to ECM
U cd prolly jus tap from a live 12 v wire in the fuse box closet to that side of the engine. I believe the wire for fogs is always hot...or run wire from the battery to the CPS itself. if u got any extra fuses put it inline to protect the sensor. 5Amp fuse shd be good.
Gotta test to see if u getting power to the CPS. U got a test light?
U cd prolly jus tap from a live 12 v wire in the fuse box closet to that side of the engine. I believe the wire for fogs is always hot...or run wire from the battery to the CPS itself. if u got any extra fuses put it inline to protect the sensor. 5Amp fuse shd be good.
Gotta test to see if u getting power to the CPS. U got a test light?
02-13-2010, 10:42 AM
#30
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 223
AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH! I'm super frustrated! I unhooked the ECM wire harness connector and hooked it back in. Then when I turned the key, it cranked and instead of cranking steadily it cranked strong for a sec and then I heard a kind of sound. It was like air being released or something and immediately afterward, it stopped cranking. I smelled a hint of a burning smell. I tried to find the source of the smell but I'm not sure. I think it came from around the UIM (no idea how far down).
Then for a few minutes when I turned the key to "ON", i heard a fast clicking sound coming from around the UIM area. That stopped soon, and now no noise. If I turn it to "ON" now, i only have a little juice. If I try rolling the window down, it gradually slows and stops after just a couple seconds. It's like my battery is dead. If I try and crank it, it just makes a slight attempt for like a half a second and stops completely.
Questions:
1-Any chance I ran my battery down cranking the engine for the last week with no start? Or does the alternator charge the battery even when there is no fire?
2-Where aprox is the starter? Any chance I burned it up in the last week? Would a bad starter give my no crank? Or crappy weak crank?
3-It seems pretty hard to put the ECM wire harness connector on wrong. But If I didn't get it all the way connected or something, could it cause these symptoms? I disconnected and reconnected it and I get the same thing.
4-I have a multimeter now. Can I test my battery without cranking the engine? Would I be testing for 12v DC? or AC?
Then for a few minutes when I turned the key to "ON", i heard a fast clicking sound coming from around the UIM area. That stopped soon, and now no noise. If I turn it to "ON" now, i only have a little juice. If I try rolling the window down, it gradually slows and stops after just a couple seconds. It's like my battery is dead. If I try and crank it, it just makes a slight attempt for like a half a second and stops completely.
Questions:
1-Any chance I ran my battery down cranking the engine for the last week with no start? Or does the alternator charge the battery even when there is no fire?
2-Where aprox is the starter? Any chance I burned it up in the last week? Would a bad starter give my no crank? Or crappy weak crank?
3-It seems pretty hard to put the ECM wire harness connector on wrong. But If I didn't get it all the way connected or something, could it cause these symptoms? I disconnected and reconnected it and I get the same thing.
4-I have a multimeter now. Can I test my battery without cranking the engine? Would I be testing for 12v DC? or AC?
02-13-2010, 11:13 AM
#31
Aha! I am of some use!
4. Test for DC voltage, should read somewhere between 13 and 14 volts.
This could be the 2nd epic starting thread, I hope your problem gets solved! Then I can put this in my faves.
4. Test for DC voltage, should read somewhere between 13 and 14 volts.
This could be the 2nd epic starting thread, I hope your problem gets solved! Then I can put this in my faves.
02-13-2010, 11:35 AM
#32
Member
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 235
yes if yo havent re-charged that battery it most likely needs a charge ... atl only charges when its spining
starter is right below the TB you have to remove the intake tubing to get at it then 2 bolts, one nut and one harness and its out...... you might have burned it up autozone will test it for free but even if it passes thier test it can still be bad .... yes a bad starter can give a bad crank and no crank
if the ecm wasnt seated all the way i doubt you would get anything from the car
how did you chack for codes? a code reader or did you turn the screw? if you turned the screw it may not be in the correct position (which will cause a clicking near the UIM)
you are looking for dc volts and it should read about 13v
but if you want to load test it you will need another person
but the leads on he battery (red to + black to -) you well get XX volts with out removing them have someone crank the engine if it drops below 10v your battery is either no good or doesnt have a charge
you dont have to have a test light to see if your getting power to the cps you can use your multimeter set if for dc volts and see if you get a reading at the harness
starter is right below the TB you have to remove the intake tubing to get at it then 2 bolts, one nut and one harness and its out...... you might have burned it up autozone will test it for free but even if it passes thier test it can still be bad .... yes a bad starter can give a bad crank and no crank
if the ecm wasnt seated all the way i doubt you would get anything from the car
how did you chack for codes? a code reader or did you turn the screw? if you turned the screw it may not be in the correct position (which will cause a clicking near the UIM)
you are looking for dc volts and it should read about 13v
but if you want to load test it you will need another person
but the leads on he battery (red to + black to -) you well get XX volts with out removing them have someone crank the engine if it drops below 10v your battery is either no good or doesnt have a charge
you dont have to have a test light to see if your getting power to the cps you can use your multimeter set if for dc volts and see if you get a reading at the harness
Last edited by smai555; 02-13-2010 at 11:39 AM.
02-13-2010, 09:43 PM
#33
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 223
yes if yo havent re-charged that battery it most likely needs a charge ... atl only charges when its spining
starter is right below the TB you have to remove the intake tubing to get at it then 2 bolts, one nut and one harness and its out...... you might have burned it up autozone will test it for free but even if it passes thier test it can still be bad .... yes a bad starter can give a bad crank and no crank
if the ecm wasnt seated all the way i doubt you would get anything from the car
how did you chack for codes? a code reader or did you turn the screw? if you turned the screw it may not be in the correct position (which will cause a clicking near the UIM)
you are looking for dc volts and it should read about 13v
but if you want to load test it you will need another person
but the leads on he battery (red to + black to -) you well get XX volts with out removing them have someone crank the engine if it drops below 10v your battery is either no good or doesnt have a charge
you dont have to have a test light to see if your getting power to the cps you can use your multimeter set if for dc volts and see if you get a reading at the harness
starter is right below the TB you have to remove the intake tubing to get at it then 2 bolts, one nut and one harness and its out...... you might have burned it up autozone will test it for free but even if it passes thier test it can still be bad .... yes a bad starter can give a bad crank and no crank
if the ecm wasnt seated all the way i doubt you would get anything from the car
how did you chack for codes? a code reader or did you turn the screw? if you turned the screw it may not be in the correct position (which will cause a clicking near the UIM)
you are looking for dc volts and it should read about 13v
but if you want to load test it you will need another person
but the leads on he battery (red to + black to -) you well get XX volts with out removing them have someone crank the engine if it drops below 10v your battery is either no good or doesnt have a charge
you dont have to have a test light to see if your getting power to the cps you can use your multimeter set if for dc volts and see if you get a reading at the harness
I'm going to remove the starter and battery and have autozone test them. I have a feeling I burned the starter up since I smelled some burning. I want to run a new wire from ECM to CMPS. Meanwhile I'll have the starter checked, charge the battery and see if that helps.
02-22-2010, 09:47 PM
#34
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 223
Update:
I recharged the battery and it cranks again strong and constant, but no fire. Apparently 2 weeks of listening for symptoms drained the battery.
I am starting to doubt the problem is the CMPS because the sensor its self OHM'd per spec and I can't get the P0340 again even if I crank all day. Not sure why it came up before but it seems to have been a fluke.
I pulled all plugs and coils at once and had my wife crank while I looked at each plug. They all spark, except #2 may not be sparking all the time. Maybe I just don't see it as well, but at any rate, I think with 5 sparks it should crank.
firewall
1 3 5
2 4 6
headlights
So back to the original equation Fire = Proper Timing(fuel + air + spark)
I apparently have spark and can smell and see gas when I pull the coils and plugs. I just remembered I have to replace my throttle chamber gasket, but my IACV gasket is fine. I didn't mess with any other parts I know of that affect air/fuel mixture so I am 95% sure I have air.
1-Does this mean my timing is off? I have pictures of the markings I made and thought it was a pretty fool proof system of getting the timing aligned correctly but how bad would the timing have to be of for the car not to fire at all? I would imagine if it's off then it's only off by maybe 1 link in the big chain.
2-What is an accurate way to check the timing? Keep in mind I'm working with OBDii and a 160 pc Craftsman tool set... not exactly an arsenal.
3-Is there any way to adjust timing or even fine tune it without opening the TC case again? Maybe changing when the computer sends a spark? Because I'm still dang sure my mechanics are lined up right.
I'm at m wits' end. Please help anyone.
I recharged the battery and it cranks again strong and constant, but no fire. Apparently 2 weeks of listening for symptoms drained the battery.
I am starting to doubt the problem is the CMPS because the sensor its self OHM'd per spec and I can't get the P0340 again even if I crank all day. Not sure why it came up before but it seems to have been a fluke.
I pulled all plugs and coils at once and had my wife crank while I looked at each plug. They all spark, except #2 may not be sparking all the time. Maybe I just don't see it as well, but at any rate, I think with 5 sparks it should crank.
firewall
1 3 5
2 4 6
headlights
So back to the original equation Fire = Proper Timing(fuel + air + spark)
I apparently have spark and can smell and see gas when I pull the coils and plugs. I just remembered I have to replace my throttle chamber gasket, but my IACV gasket is fine. I didn't mess with any other parts I know of that affect air/fuel mixture so I am 95% sure I have air.
1-Does this mean my timing is off? I have pictures of the markings I made and thought it was a pretty fool proof system of getting the timing aligned correctly but how bad would the timing have to be of for the car not to fire at all? I would imagine if it's off then it's only off by maybe 1 link in the big chain.
2-What is an accurate way to check the timing? Keep in mind I'm working with OBDii and a 160 pc Craftsman tool set... not exactly an arsenal.
3-Is there any way to adjust timing or even fine tune it without opening the TC case again? Maybe changing when the computer sends a spark? Because I'm still dang sure my mechanics are lined up right.
I'm at m wits' end. Please help anyone.
Last edited by dan1el; 02-22-2010 at 09:52 PM.
02-23-2010, 06:44 AM
#35
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Worcester, MA
Posts: 4,011
silly question....u didnt leave any bolts or anythin in the engine. U sure cam timing is correcly lined up? check valve clearance? Somethin is not tellin the ECM to fire. Or it doesnt know where its TDC is.
Christ man this sucks..didnt this start off as a simple oil pan removal??
Christ man this sucks..didnt this start off as a simple oil pan removal??
02-23-2010, 08:41 AM
#36
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 223
silly question....u didnt leave any bolts or anythin in the engine. U sure cam timing is correcly lined up? check valve clearance? Somethin is not tellin the ECM to fire. Or it doesnt know where its TDC is.
Christ man this sucks..didnt this start off as a simple oil pan removal??
Christ man this sucks..didnt this start off as a simple oil pan removal??
I am positive I left nothing foreign in the engine.
All the plugs seem to be sparking, so I don’t understand why it isn’t firing. If the ckps ref or pos are bad or have a bad connection to ecm would it still spark? Or should I still be checking my sensor wires?
Is it really likely that my valve clearance changed while I did the o rings? If valve clearance is off, what happens? Does it release too much/little gas?
02-23-2010, 10:02 AM
#38
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 223
02-23-2010, 03:44 PM
#40
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 223
Maybe I'm missing something. When you say fire what do you mean? Something is telling the ECM to send a spark and I know I have fuel. So I think it has to do with timing.
And the starter cranks strong and steady.
Am I wrong?
Last edited by dan1el; 02-23-2010 at 04:30 PM.