n0ypi

Oh by the way...

Ever wonder why dubai is now being converted as a tourist spot?... the wells are running out.

Here's a second start Google: "When will oil run out?"

sicivic89

iTrader: (58)

I know how the EFIE adds a bit of voltage to the signal to fool the ECU into thinking everything is running good. But I'm saying how would I know what much to add using the EFIE. Most of them have an adjustment ****. I don't want to run the car too lean and damage something.

mowgli29

iTrader: (21)

Why don't we start drilling in freeking alaska? I've heard that Alaska alone has enough oil to supply the US for MANY years to come. I'll have to find where I heard that...

n0ypi

Oh Yeah, there's enough in alaska, but this are all political.
US is waiting for the oils to run out in the middle east, so they will have control of oil again afterwards.

US already learned its lesson from the past. The oil wells did ran out in TX that they thought is an infinite supply. Same pattern is showing up now in the middle east.

n0ypi

Oh, I Got it... I thought you are not using HHO.

mowgli29

iTrader: (21)

Sorry, what I said was sort of confusing..
You're right, I'm NOT using an HHO kit.

I'm saying that I save the same amount of gas as people that do have an HHO kit. Perhaps HHO kits have the potential to save more gas than I can without one, but I haven't seen that proven yet.

Basically I'm just saying that I don't think I am "nursing oil companies" by not having an HHO kit when I save just as much gas as most people messing with HHO kits.

rxm6

iTrader: (5)

Well, I have a logging program that can monitor my car real-time. So that's what I'm going to use to make the adjustment. Also, after reading the directions for the EFIE, they stated its trial and error to get it tuned right.



Also, to everybody here, please, please, please, don't turn this into an opinion thread. I know it's easy. I just don't want this thread to turn into a flame-fest and then have it locked. There is useful information here for those of us trying this out and there is also a healthy amount of negative commentary regarding this topic from others, which is perfectly fine. I have no problem listening to other's comments on how stupid or ridiculous it may be because several of those comments have actually gotten me to change my design for, what I feel, is the better. So to everyone who has posted, either in favor or against this topic, thank you, and all I'm asking is to keep it factual and on-topic.

mowgli29

iTrader: (21)

So if one had a wideband o2 sensor, that could be used as well? Basically is there a way to use the EFIE without some sort of logging capabilities?



You're right I don't want to get this locked for everyone. My bad, I'll take it to PM's.

black_maxed95

iTrader: (41)

hey guys, ive been checking out this thread every once in a while and i am also sorta on the doubtful side of this being an effective solution for cars. however I have taken plenty of physics and chemistry courses as a nuclear engineering major and i do understand how these work. I also want to do this because I love to tinker with nerdy stuff.

Ive decided that over this summer I will put some thought into this and hopefully in a few months have this on my car and see how it affects it. I am also very performance oriented with my car (see my sig) so eventually I will be seeing how it affects it that way also. I will also test it out with my NGK AFX wideband and a safc neo.

I have started the build for my HHO cell, basically the only major thing I have left that I need is some good electrodes. I just made it out of PVC adapters and various fittings. It is copmletly sealed with PVC glue and silicone caulk. Last night I painted it black and clear coated it for my viewing pleasure. In a few weeks when i have money I am going to buy some of the 316L tubes off of ebay.

Anyways, this is what I have so far:





The black wires I have connected to it now are for an old cell phone charger to test it out. I tested it out with cut up pop cans for the electrodes in tap water with salt and it all works. Obviously that is a very crude setup but was just to test it. I will eventually use distilled water, NaOH, and like mentioned, some 316L SS electrodes when I am ready to get this thing in full swing.

maxgtr2000

iTrader: (29)

Just throwing the kit on a car will not really do much, it depends on the car, since we have 2 o2 sensors that complicates things. once the o2 sensor detects excess o2 in the exhaust the ecu will dump more fuel, so there is no fuel saving in that respect. With the efie that will take care of that and real gains will be seen. I have a wideband o2 on my car so i will know what my reading is once i have it installed, plus the hydrgen is like 120 octane, you are substituting some liquid fuel for hydrogen gas. Not everyone follows the steps to install these correctly and it differs from vehicle to vehicle brand wise. If anything it can at least help you pass emissions by having the cleaner burn.

mowgli29

iTrader: (21)

That's something I didn't think of. Think it's possible to make up for not having a cat? I don't have to pass emissions anyway...but just out of curiosity...

n0ypi

Nice!!!...

Show us the HHO Gas Production numbers...

1.) Liter of HHO / Min
2.) AMPS and Volts
3.) Mileage improvements
4.) And other observations.

and more!

black_maxed95

iTrader: (41)

i highly doubt it will be a substitute for your main cat. you are still going to produce the NOx from the gasoline.

n0ypi

Tha'ts kinda confusing...
"you save as much gas as most people messing with HHO kits."

Are you saying that your engine is the baseline for HHO savings? eventhough you dont even have an HHO installed?... Not sure if you can call that a fact either.

Wow, you probably have a magic JoeCell in your car.

I wish I have a car like that.

black_maxed95

iTrader: (41)

It is going to be a while (atleast a month or two) before I have this on my car (atleast on a regular basis). For now it is just a bedroom experiment until I have it built efficient enough and durable enough for my car. I still need to make a system to make sure no water would get sucked into the engine. I also need to make a bubbler canister yet.

mowgli29

iTrader: (21)

Lol...I can't make a simple statement to save my life.

All I'm saying is this: I'm noticed about a 3mpg increase by driving slower and removing 70lbs from the car. The amount of gas I save by doing that seems to be just as good as the amount of gas other people save by using an HHO kit. Perhaps I haven't seen the full potential of an HHO kit though.

rxm6

iTrader: (5)

I would imagine so, but I don't know for sure. Perhaps someone with more wideband 02 knowledge can chime in. I've never used one and so I can't reliably comment on it.

Also, I suppose that after I or another member has finished testing it on their vehicle, we could give you the initial base settings and you could tinker it at your own will.

black_maxed95

iTrader: (41)

what is a decent metal type to use for the electrodes that is still cheap and easy to get a hold of. tonight i am finishing making my bubbler and right now it is being painted to match my main cell. tomorrow i want to start producing hydrogen. ive done a basic test run previously with pop cans cut up but what do you guys use that is better. Im eventually going to get some 316L SS tubes off ebay but im looking for something cheaper until i do that. I was thinking using some solid copper wire twisted into a spiral. Would that be decent or are there easier/cheaper/better solutions.

maxgtr2000

iTrader: (29)

Anything stainless to start off with, you can get stainless steel lightswitch blank wall plates from Lowes or Home depot. Construction hangers also work for the plate design.

black_maxed95

iTrader: (41)

thanks man, ill probably pick up some of those light switch plates tomorrow after work.

RjSteed

Ok, what is a 316L tube and what is the purpose of it? I tried looking them up on a search, and couldnt figure it out...

I did purchase a scan guage today to hook up to my vehicle... I'm going to try this project on a 1999 Chevy Tahoe, think its a waste? I dont want to try it on the Corolla as of yet, cause it was the wife mothers car (whos deceased now) and screw up that car.

black_maxed95

iTrader: (41)

316L is a type of stainless steel. L stands for low carbon. search '316L HHO' and youll see what I mean.

Powerman5115

iTrader: (5)

So I have finished the construction of my booster. I just have to take the plates off and clean them up. Some of my plates spacing looks odd because the washers I bought are not all the same size. It's not as pretty as Smack's but I am just hoping that it performs the same. Is there anything that you would change on it?


By compartmentalizing, do you mean to keep the same amount of arrays just put them where there is a compartment between two of them?

n0ypi

Powerman, I suggest to insulate the bottom strap too...
Why? This is like putting the two active electrodes very closely, and making your cell inneficient, floaters wont produce gas or little gas because they are now almost getting bypassed, because there's now a shorter current path from neg to positive. Remember, the center plates is -, and the strap at the bottom is +

You want to put the active electrodes as far as possible from each other, behind the floaters. Just seal off the straps.

BTW, is the bottom strap touching the center plates? (looks like it to me?)
i'm seeing sparks!... that's a short!...

For a true series cell, I just dont want to confuse you further, I know it's confusing at first. But, you can look at Patrick Kelly's documentation about Practical Guide to Free Energy Devices, (Chapter 10) , from page 10-30 (chap10,pg30). You'll see how a true series cell should be.

http://www.free-energy-info.co.uk/Chapter10.pdf

Patrick spends a lot of time writing all this free energy stuff, he's actually the one who wrote all the docs for smack booster, boyce electrolyzer, hotsabi, and others...
Thanks to Patrick!

Just go to the main page to get all the info:
http://www.free-energy-info.co.uk

Hope this helps.

Powerman5115

iTrader: (5)

It does help. I will insulate the straps once I get everything cleaned up. The bottom strap is about 2mm from touching the plates I will have to coat it. I am not 100% finished; just the hard part. I will have to make the spacing even on every plate, I just have to look at the washers and use the same size. In the packs I bought some are skinny and some are thick.

black_maxed95

iTrader: (41)

wow guys:
I got my cell working so i was testing it out. Im using tap water with NaOH (100% Lye) and am using some SS light switch plates for basic electrodes. The HHO is bubbled through water mixed with isopropyl alcohol (to make it extra flammable ). I was testing it out and I held a lighter up to the tube and i made it give off a huge backflash, it actually freaked me out.

So what do i do next, I do it again, but this time I record it on video. The one i got on video is extremely small compared to the huge one that scared me.
(waiting for youtube to upload it right now)

rxm6

iTrader: (5)

And thus, black_maxed95 has become the embodiment of a generation of American's.

Can't wait to see it, plus I like the alcohol, that's classy.

black_maxed95

iTrader: (41)

youtube has to process the video, im not sure how long this takes, ive never used youtube to upload before. but ill have it up the instant its ready.


EDIT: uploaded, let me know what you think:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VaN6KjDVb-s
I love how you can see the flame travel the length of the clear tube

black_maxed95

iTrader: (41)

heres another video, only 10 seconds this time. Its a bigger backflash. It doesnt sound as loud as it was in real life in the video but look at the glass of water on the table when it explodes, you can see how the explosion shook the whole table.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVmDfD09WwU


...heres a screen shot.



so tomorrow, im going to make a better electrode similar to what powerman has. Right now its very similar but just uses 3 plates. In the future I also want to make an arrestor to stop the backflashes from happening and I also need to make a catch can for the water incase any would get in the final tube so I dont get water in my engine when this is finally in my car.

Is anyone else making any notable progress?

n0ypi

Nice!!!.. Here's my video for water torch... i'll upload some more in a bit.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eo66T...x=0&playnext=1

black_maxed95

iTrader: (41)

cool, I like the torch idea with using the nozzle to inflate *****.
are you planning on eventually making a system for your car?

btw heres a link that is easier to use for your video:
http://www.youtube.com/p/8F2C7496F529B7FB

n0ypi

Thank you... I thought you can embed youtube video here... but it didn't work.

Link edited, it actually composed of 2 series video...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eo66T...x=0&playnext=1

Im building another one for my altima actually as we speak, almost done.
Just see my first post on this thread about my the gain I got from my other car.

CMax03

iTrader: (3)

use a grainger valve as the torch so you can turn it off/on... I saw another site/video that use water as fuel with more power output than that! I believe the guy was using a laser to ignite water or using ultrasonic waves... I'll find it again!

n0ypi

If you are refrering to SirHoax on youtube,he is using plasma to generate HHO on one of his vids.

There's already an on/off switch, plus I dont need another torch contraptions, the purpose of this cell is not really for a torch, it's going into my other car. Since I already made a little flashback arrestor out of plastic tubing and stainless wool (the black tube next to the needle), why not make a torch just for curiosity, and using the stuff that I have lying around.

The cell in that video is not yet done, as you can see, its just a 1/4 of the a temporary container ($4 from walmart), it will be a series cell... the cell is actually going into an acrylic container that i'm building right now.

RjSteed

Sorry that was just funny as hell to see... LOL Reason being, is I was thinking it was going to boom just before it did... I cannot wait until I can get started on mine... I think I said it, I have the scan guage on order and should be on its happy little way...

Hank96GLE

Interesting thread but a few concerns:

- Alternator drag increases as current draw increases. You are not using "free" unused energy from your alternator, a 10Amp draw will make your engine work harder to spin the alternator

- I'm not comfortable with letting engine vacuum simply pull in as much HHO as is generated by the electrodes. Without a proper metering system like a "fuel injector" for your HHO, there's no safe method of ensuring AFR's don't get out of whack

- You are installing devices to trick your O2's into reading richer than they are so the ECU runs the motor leaner. Great idea for saving gas but see point above - how do you ensure that:

1. Your HHO injection is precise enough to keep AFR's safe
2. Your HHO gas quality is consistent. What if you get a bad batch of water/baking soda or your electrodes start to deteriorate. Now, you may only have HHO gas that is 50% as "potent" as the last batch and you run your engine dangerously lean
3. The ECU is smart enough to revert to gasoline only mode when your water bottle runs empty

Ideally, you'd need a feedback system tied into the ECU that can safely meter the amount of enrichment that the HHO system provides and cuts back on gasoline. Without that, I think you run a high risk of leaning out.

IMO, it's too much complexity for little gain.

rxm6

iTrader: (5)

I agree. The "free" energy language bothers me a bit because there really is no such thing. What I'm more interested in is offsetting the use of an overpriced fuel with one that is less expensive. Something, I feel, is a more conservative view on the purpose of this HHO device, without actually having tested one for an extended period of time in a vehicle.

Good point. Unfortunately, what it boils down to (no pun intended) is that you regulate the amount of hydroxy going into your engine by regulating the amount of hydroxy that the unit produces. And this is done by conditioning the unit prior to vehicle use. Inexact; yes. Unfortunately, this technology is not where it should be and I completely agree that an injector would make the process more stable.

Another good point, but don't forget, the O2 sensors are not the only tools your car has available to it to regulate gas injection. Also, the only thing to prevent the water bottle from being empty is the user, sadly. You make valid points though that would prevent someone like my girlfriend or my even my father from using what these members are making. However, I'm a "tinkerer" at heart and I love innovation and invention. And when these problems arise, I look forward to solving them.

n0ypi

An obvious comments from those who dont know anything about efficient way of generating hho gas, and dont even have one. Complexity is relative, and for those who dont know what they are doing, they always say it's complex.

There are lots of amps in the alternator that actually goes to waste, our HHO gen is just taking advantage of it. Taking too much current from the alternator creates more drag??? FALSE!!!.... So, if I have a wind turbine, and if take current more than it can provide, does it come to a close stop? wind turbine and alternator are the same concept. Stator and Rotor are not really physically attached to each other to cause a drag when you pull current! The energy is already there, and your engine already worked for it, its already paid for, if you dont use it, it'll just go to waste.

Now you just realize that your car is wasting energy most of the time by spinning the alternator.... The engine will spin it, even there's nothing demanding for current.

It's not really free energy per se, but it's wasted energy if not utilized.

Oh by the way, 9mpg additional is not bad, from an HHO gen that's taking 8-9Amps, generating 1.3LPM of hho... on a Corolla 2000.
Can you call that little gain? maybe if the petrol prices are still in the $0.99/gallon

n0ypi

Go RJ!... Don't let this distractions stop you.

Hank96GLE

Not really, read: http://www.rv8.ch/article.php/20060523194935550
The stronger the magnetic field, the more current is generated and the harder it is to turn the alternator. The voltage regulator determines how strong the magnetic field is in the alt. In general, it's ~1HP for every 20A so it's not that huge a draw but it is a draw nonetheless.

That's great, did they have to modify the ECU to have it run leaner or was the ECU able to automatically adjust? I've read about truck fleets that see huge gains as well and haven't read much to disprove this.

My concern is that the HHO kits around don't have enough safeguards in place for me to put this in my car. I have dealt with complex kits before - I put a water injection kit on a turbocharged car with a standalone ECU. But I did have a low boost program with more conservative fuel curves for when my WI kit ran out of water/ethanol. I don't see that in this HHO kit.

Btw, not intending to derail what you're doing, just bringing up some concerns. Keep up the great work.