VE timing chain info

wpendl1 · 10-27-2009, 08:54 PM

Does anyone have experience with the VE30DE timing chain, and timing marks. My VEs cam timing marks don't line up. They seem to be off nearly half a tooth. With the Crank at TDC, the arrows on the caps don't line up with the dots on the cam sprockets... grrrr. I've heard of chains stretching, and want to confirm that other people have seen this.
More information, i noticed this after rebuilding the VTCs and putting them back on. I'm 100% sure that the VTCs were reassymbled correctly. They were done once before 10 years ago by a shop, and the markings were still there. I verified they lined up before the rebuild, and after the rebuild.
Has anyone else replaced the timing chains? I've read up on the job, and I know it involved removing both heads and the oil pan to get to the lower timing chain cover.
Is it worth the $250~ in parts, or should I just get a lower mileage JDM replacement to drop in. My engine has 180000 miles on it.

Mysticcal · 10-27-2009, 09:33 PM

VE timing chains are pretty much lifetime.

VTC temp fix is grounding them / changing oil

if either part breaks the engine is fairly gone. I'd swap.

**Matt93SE** · 10-28-2009, 06:17 AM

When I rebuilt my engine at 222,xxx miles, the timing chains were still in good shape. I measured the free length per the manual, and they were within spec. I forget what the numbers are, but they were still in good shape.

In your case, are both upper chains off by the same amount? I wonder if the lower chain has jumped a tooth or if you don't have it set perfectly on TDC. I do remember mine being *close* but slightly off center- less than half a tooth though, so it was pretty obvious which way was up.

And yes.. to remove the chains, you have to pull the front timing cover off. The head gaskets are used to seal between th elower and upper timing cover (and the chains run in a pocket in the end of the gasket), so you would have to pull the heads in order to put it all back together properly. I tried it without doing that and how have a pretty ugly oil leak on the timing cover where I slightly damaged the head gasket after thinking my timing was off so I pulled the lower cover. THEN I realized I couldn't get it back together easily. doh.

so umm yeah. if you want to pull the chains, you'll need to pull the heads. At that point, you might as well do a hone & re-ring and bearings and have an almost new engine for another day's work.

***Jeff92se*** · 10-28-2009, 11:24 AM

When I took my motor apart, the marks didn't line up either but the motor ran fine so I marked them and put them back exactly the way they were.

IF you motor runs strong, I wouldn't worry about it. It's a HUGE pain to redo the chains with the motor in.

wpendl1 · 10-28-2009, 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff92se

When I took my motor apart, the marks didn't line up either but the motor ran fine so I marked them and put them back exactly the way they were.

IF you motor runs strong, I wouldn't worry about it. It's a HUGE pain to redo the chains with the motor in.

Do you recall if the marks were off on the retarded side (marks on cam rotated slightly counterclockwise)? The rear head timing marks are actually off a little more than the front head. But I am guessing this is due to the VTC. They were both rebuild 10 years ago, but the rear was rebuilt wrong. The oring was not put inside like it should have been, and I'm guessing caused premature failure, and increased stress on the chain.

The engine does run fine, but has a lack of power on the low end (under 3000 rpms) Unfortunatly I've only had the car for a short time and am not familiar to how it should run, but a buddy of mine has a GXE and his feels so much stronger on the low end than mine.

I want the car to run like it should, not just acceptable. So it's not an option to just leave it as is.

I guess I need help drawing the line from those who have the experience. Matt brought up a very good point, If I have the heads off, a couple more hours work and I could replace the bearings, rings, and re-hone the cylinders... then I could also replace the valve guide seals, and regrind the valves. Machine work on the heads gets pretty pricy. Is it worth doing all this work, or am I better off just swaping it out for a JDM. There are several in California I can get for $500 plus shipipng ($120 - $150) and they CLAIM to have less than 60K miles on them.

**Matt93SE** · 10-28-2009, 09:15 PM

yeah they CLAIM to have less than 60k on them. on a car this old, they'll have more like 160k on them OR they'll be completely crusted with rust from sitting on a shelf for 10 years.

IMO, I'd rebuild the engine unless you can find a confirmed good donor engine.

*Cliff Clavin* · 10-30-2009, 02:08 PM

You can ask MrGone about lining up the chains properly.

Jeff did my engine replacement with a JDM engine back in 2004. Matt is right that a lot of them are a bit crusty. The first one delivered to Jeff didn't look so good and he made them send another one. IIRC, Jeff or another .org member personally inspected it before it was shipped (Seattle area).

My JDM also developed VTC tick after a couple of years. It runs great, otherwise. I don't know if the VTC springs go weak from sitting a long time or if the engine had more miles than the importer claimed.

If you can visually inspect a JDM engine first, it is well worth you time to take a look under the valve cover gaskets an check on a few other things.

Keep in mind that you will still be buying other stuff for a JDM swap like a lot of gaskets, hoses, water pump, etc. There is a lot of info on the JDM swap in the stickies.

Just some things to think about.

JC93SE · 10-30-2009, 04:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wpendl1

The engine does run fine, but has a lack of power on the low end (under 3000 rpms) .

Out of the blue... I jump in...

I hate to ask, but did you test the knock sensor? Major low end power loss. Either jump it with a 470K resistor or tear in and replace it.

JC93SE · 10-30-2009, 04:25 PM

I just replaced VTCs, chains, gears, tensioners last weekend. I haven't fired it up yet. My observations:

I didn't even notice if the marks on the VTCs lined up with the cap arrows. I scribed the cams with the caps at TDC and replaced everything- then checked that everything came back after putting the chains and gear back together.

The new VTC on the rear is off maybe half a tooth from what it was... but that old VTC had come apart (future post) so I'm OK with that.

I did not pull the heads. I put some RTV between the head gasket and the head (thinking back- should have been more meticulous about it) and RTV'd the top of the timing cover. We'll see how it turns out.

It is a pain to do chains from the view of having to remove almost everything from the outside of the engine, and suspend the engine to remove the crossmember to remove the oil pan, etc. But you do what you have to do.

wpendl1 · 10-30-2009, 04:50 PM

Are the head gaskets metal? Do you think that it would have worked better if you cut the part of the head gasket away that extends over the chain cover, then use RTV to fill in where the gasket was? I haven't attempted yet of course, but going by theory, it seems the fit of the chain caver back on would be tight due to the gasket, and the RTV would just scrape off as you squeze the cover back in. I'm still deciding on weather to pull the heads or not since it's another $80.00 for the head gaskets and $40 or so for the intake and exhaust gaskets.

JC, you replaced the VTCs instead of rebuilding them? Did you notice considerable wear between the old gears and the new ones?

Thanks everyone for your feedback!

wpendl1 · 10-30-2009, 05:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JC93SE

Out of the blue... I jump in...

I hate to ask, but did you test the knock sensor? Major low end power loss. Either jump it with a 470K resistor or tear in and replace it.

Ok, I had a chance to read up on the knock sensor. I don't have any codes, one of the first things i checked, the high end power does not seem effected, and my gas mileage seems to be pretty good (300miles +per tank). It sounds like there is no way to check it without plugging in consult (taking to the dealer). So I guess it's a jump the terminal with a 470K ohm resister and see if it makes a difference kind of thing?
I'll go get a resistor before deciding to pull the heads of. Then if the sensor is bad, I can fix it at the same time.

Again, thanks!

JC93SE · 10-30-2009, 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wpendl1

Are the head gaskets metal? Do you think that it would have worked better if you cut the part of the head gasket away that extends over the chain cover, then use RTV to fill in where the gasket was? I haven't attempted yet of course, but going by theory, it seems the fit of the chain caver back on would be tight due to the gasket, and the RTV would just scrape off as you squeze the cover back in.

I'm not sure what the gaskets are. A little bit stuck to the cover, and they're sensitive to brake clean. I wonder if that may be another idea. I'm not sure there is a perfect technique there. Even now I'm replaying what I could have done different... now that it's all back together and I don't want to take apart again. I was going for more of a friction-fit with what ever little bit of RTV didn't squeeze out after the cover slid on. As I recall, I still had a little clean up of RTV closer to the block. Without the gasket, there's more of a gap to fill with a bead but maybe a bead none-the-less. Either way, the idea probably is to put some on both surfaces

Quote:

Originally Posted by wpendl1

I'm still deciding on weather to pull the heads or not since it's another $80.00 for the head gaskets and $40 or so for the intake and exhaust gaskets.

Yeah, and the knock sensor and the KS harness while you're there. Pulling the heads was further than I wanted to go, even though I'm going in after my KS. Sure, what's a few more bolts and nuts at that point? ... and broken exhaust studs, and...

Quote:

Originally Posted by wpendl1

JC, you replaced the VTCs instead of rebuilding them? Did you notice considerable wear between the old gears and the new ones?

One of the VTC caps had broken apart... luckily the three pieces fell in the right places... no damage besides cracked valve cover and some ground steel and aluminum (fingers crossed on metal in engine). After years of reading about VTCs, I wanted perfect new ones. I put 110k on the car, and they were clattering when I bought it. It also appeared that the job had been done before: black RTV where grey should have been on the upper covers. I'll (maybe) rebuild the one good one, and the other good one on my other 93SE where the VTC pieces *didn't* fall so lucky.

I probably went "over the top" with the new chains and gears... they all looked fine- some minor wear on the gears- probably could have gone *another* 240K. I know my engine and I wanted it to be "right", "perfect", and to never have to wonder if I should have done more. Now it's new again, and I have spare parts to replace the broken stuff on the other one (not sure about the valves on that one yet, though)

JC93SE · 10-30-2009, 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wpendl1

Ok, I had a chance to read up on the knock sensor. I don't have any codes, one of the first things i checked, the high end power does not seem effected, and my gas mileage seems to be pretty good (300miles +per tank). It sounds like there is no way to check it without plugging in consult (taking to the dealer). So I guess it's a jump the terminal with a 470K ohm resister and see if it makes a difference kind of thing?
I'll go get a resistor before deciding to pull the heads of. Then if the sensor is bad, I can fix it at the same time.

Again, thanks!

I don't have my manual handy, but you test between one of the pins on the connector and ground for resistance. If it's out of spec (forget what- >2M Ohm?) then it's bad. The 470K is supposed to be close to what a new one tests out to be and fools the ECU (must run premium fuel then for sure).

I've watched timing on a SnapOn scan tool before- seen it get pulled back to like 10 deg AFTER TDC under throttle with a bad KS. The ECU pulls more timing with more throttle so that it feels like less and less power as you ease your foot in it. Then the engine comes up on cam at about 3000 RPM and it doesn't feel as bad, but still not as good as it could be.

BTW: check for crack(s) in the VTC caps. If one is cracked, it won't work, no low end power. Same problem in my other 93 before the catastrophe.

JC93SE · 10-30-2009, 06:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wpendl1

I'll go get a resistor before deciding to pull the heads of. Then if the sensor is bad, I can fix it at the same time.

A few years ago, a pack of five resistors was 99 cents at Radio Shack. If the KS is "a" problem, it's definitely less expensive and a lot less labor intensive.

BTW: you won't have to pull the heads, just the water pump, the compressor to get the WP in and out, the intake, the fuel rails, the manifold, the water pipe...

wpendl1 · 10-31-2009, 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JC93SE

A few years ago, a pack of five resistors was 99 cents at Radio Shack. If the KS is "a" problem, it's definitely less expensive and a lot less labor intensive.

BTW: you won't have to pull the heads, just the water pump, the compressor to get the WP in and out, the intake, the fuel rails, the manifold, the water pipe...

Right, but If I pull the IM to get to the heads, the KS is right there. If I get as far to replace the KS, I'd just have to remove the exhaust manifolds, and exhaust cams to get the heads off.

Are the cracks in the vtc cap easy to see?? I didn't notice any when I was pressing them apart and back together... Oh wait, the VTC kit came with new caps.

JC93SE · 10-31-2009, 10:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wpendl1

If I get as far to replace the KS, I'd just have to remove the exhaust manifolds, and exhaust cams to get the heads off.

I wonder if you even need to pull the exhaust manifold on the front head- or am I missing a bolt somewhere?

**Matt93SE** · 11-01-2009, 03:30 PM

You don't need to, but it will make it a lot easier to get the head out of the car. exh mani is a heavy bish. and there may be a couple small screws along the edge of the head holding it to the block. I know there's a couple w/ 10mm heads on the ends.

wpendl1 · 11-07-2009, 06:20 PM

OK, I finally got around to pulling things apart and ordering parts. Looks like I still need to get a front main seal, and an oil pan gasket, oh and the correct timing chains.

I ordered a timing chain "kit" from an ebay seller that included all of the guids, tentioners, and chains. After opening the chains they are only one link wide. They should be two links wide!
For those of you who have already been through this mess, where did you get your chains from? The dealer wants about $50 per chain and they have to be ordered in. I'm not opposed to going this route, but am looking for better solutions.
Thanks

JC93SE · 11-08-2009, 07:49 AM

I think I posted on here a few months back before I ordered my parts. I think someone had said he used Cloyes chains and had problems and went back to OEM.

I just replaced all of the gear and chain in one of my 93's while replacing the VTCs because I wanted to go overboard and be perfect- should fire it up today. The parts I took out are in such good shape after 240K (except the VTCs internally) that if I fix my other 93 (VTC cap broke apart, jammed up the chain, stripped the idler, f/u the valves?) that I'll just reuse what I have from the first car. That 240K engine has been pretty well maintained.

I've gotten to the point on a lot of things- especially things that I can't get to easily- to stick with what I know works rather than hoping something else works as well or well-enough. Maybe others know better than me about aftermarket chains and how good they are, but I'm OEM on this one.

Check everythingnissan.com and nissanparts.org for pricing comparison if you haven't already.

wpendl1 · 11-09-2009, 07:44 AM

Thanks JC. So you did order the chains from Nissan? Does $50 each sound about right? Well there's another week delay in the process, waiting for Nissan to order the parts.

Everything else, gaskets and such, I've stuck with getting from nissan, I don't take chances on gaskets, especially VCG and head gaskets. I hate oil leaks with a passion.

JC93SE · 11-10-2009, 09:01 PM

The chains were ~$46 and $44 each, plus the shipping (with everything else in the box) from a dealer in Scottsdale. Could have shaved a buck on each somewhere else.

Lapajgo · 11-21-2009, 12:37 AM

Anybody intrested I've got the Head Haskets - $30 bucks.