I suck at the brake bleeding
02-20-2008, 08:21 AM
#41
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, perhaps its time to raid the parts bin known as Blehm's garage... or call my mechanic, he hasnt seen the max much recently since I do so much work myself.
02-20-2008, 08:26 AM
#42
02-20-2008, 08:41 AM
#43
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Just found this gem on a website:
"Last, a master cylinder most often fails during the brake bleeding process because the cylinder ingests dirt, rust or sludge from the reservoir while the system is being bled by pumping the brake pedal."
Mine was diiirty
"Last, a master cylinder most often fails during the brake bleeding process because the cylinder ingests dirt, rust or sludge from the reservoir while the system is being bled by pumping the brake pedal."
Mine was diiirty
02-20-2008, 08:46 AM
#44
that sucks
02-20-2008, 09:04 AM
#45
I've had two occurrences on customer cars when doing brake jobs, that resulted in the m/s failing after bleeding the systems. Both had extremely dirty/old brake fluid.
02-20-2008, 09:37 AM
#47
I never added them.
I can and probably will in a couple of minutes.
you can also check if they are on http://thecarpartstore.com/ it's my latest site, but it isn't maxima complete yet. Lots of Volvo and SAAB stuff though
I can and probably will in a couple of minutes.
you can also check if they are on http://thecarpartstore.com/ it's my latest site, but it isn't maxima complete yet. Lots of Volvo and SAAB stuff though
02-20-2008, 09:46 AM
#48
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I never added them.
I can and probably will in a couple of minutes.
you can also check if they are on http://thecarpartstore.com/ it's my latest site, but it isn't maxima complete yet. Lots of Volvo and SAAB stuff though
I can and probably will in a couple of minutes.
you can also check if they are on http://thecarpartstore.com/ it's my latest site, but it isn't maxima complete yet. Lots of Volvo and SAAB stuff though
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...m=120187235392
I called my mechanic, quoted 100 for labor and 140-150 for a new m/c. Now if I could only get my 4 days back.
02-20-2008, 09:47 AM
#49
I never added them.
I can and probably will in a couple of minutes.
you can also check if they are on http://thecarpartstore.com/ it's my latest site, but it isn't maxima complete yet. Lots of Volvo and SAAB stuff though
I can and probably will in a couple of minutes.
you can also check if they are on http://thecarpartstore.com/ it's my latest site, but it isn't maxima complete yet. Lots of Volvo and SAAB stuff though
02-20-2008, 09:59 AM
#50
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I am of the opinion that the real problem is the fact that the ms plunger is normally not traveling the whole length of the cylinder during normal operation. As we all know brake-fluid is hygroscopic (attracting water) and as a result that part of the cylinder not normally traveled builds a rust layer that gets scraped off when the bleeding process starts and the plunger starts moving over that non-traveled section - the mechanical scraping off of the rust damages the edges of rubber seals and the actual rust particles invariably finds a living space right under the one-way sealing washer seats rendering the ms a noisy local brake-fluid circulator .................. that is why I suggested blocking off all ports on the ms and seeing if the seals are actually working properly first
02-20-2008, 10:08 AM
#51
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I am of the opinion that the real problem is the fact that the ms plunger is normally not traveling the whole length of the cylinder during normal operation. As we all know brake-fluid is hygroscopic (attracting water) and as a result that part of the cylinder not normally traveled builds a rust layer that gets scraped off when the bleeding process starts and the plunger starts moving over that non-traveled section - the mechanical scraping off of the rust damages the edges of rubber seals and the actual rust particles invariably finds a living space right under the one-way sealing washer seats rendering the ms a noisy local brake-fluid circulator .................. that is why I suggested blocking off all ports on the ms and seeing if the seals are actually working properly first
02-20-2008, 10:20 AM
#52
Nice generic operator lady graphic! Do you think this is legitimately new, or a reman? Seems too cheap to be new:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...m=120187235392
I called my mechanic, quoted 100 for labor and 140-150 for a new m/c. Now if I could only get my 4 days back.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...m=120187235392
I called my mechanic, quoted 100 for labor and 140-150 for a new m/c. Now if I could only get my 4 days back.
the Car Part store is going to eventually become the main site as it has real time inventory checks and pricing. I just need to do some tweaking to add other warehouses and their lines.
it probably is new, they can't legally say it is if it isn't.
I just added Reman Masters to the http://internetautosupply.com/catalog/ section.
I'll probably toss in some new ones in a little while.
Last edited by internetautomar; 02-20-2008 at 11:04 AM.
02-20-2008, 10:24 AM
#53
02-20-2008, 10:50 AM
#54
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...http://internetautosupply.com/catalog/ section.
Waiting to see the Cardone p/n 13-2600...
Last edited by mikekantor; 02-20-2008 at 11:05 AM.
02-20-2008, 06:10 PM
#56
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After looking over the FSM again in more detail, I've decided that I will remove the Master Cylinder and try to clean it.
If its already broken then I cant make it worse. If not, then perhaps I can rescue it.
If its already broken then I cant make it worse. If not, then perhaps I can rescue it.
02-20-2008, 07:06 PM
#57
02-21-2008, 10:08 AM
#58
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Has anyone here upgraded the brake master cylinder on their max to a larger bore? I've been looking at aftermarket M/Cs and rebuild kits. Ours is 15/16" without ABS, and 1" with ABS.
I'm looking into possibly using a 1", which would give a stiffer and more responsive pedal because it would need less travel to move the same amount of brake fluid vs 15/16".
I'm looking into possibly using a 1", which would give a stiffer and more responsive pedal because it would need less travel to move the same amount of brake fluid vs 15/16".
02-21-2008, 10:36 AM
#59
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Has anyone here upgraded the brake master cylinder on their max to a larger bore? I've been looking at aftermarket M/Cs and rebuild kits. Ours is 15/16" without ABS, and 1" with ABS.
I'm looking into possibly using a 1", which would give a stiffer and more responsive pedal because it would need less travel to move the same amount of brake fluid vs 15/16".
I'm looking into possibly using a 1", which would give a stiffer and more responsive pedal because it would need less travel to move the same amount of brake fluid vs 15/16".
Usually MS characteristics are closely matched to the brake component specs as well as the booster's characteristics. I don't know for sure that the boosters are different, but if you do the MS swap, I would suggest you get a matching booster too.
IMO its not worth the effort as very little will be gained in real life if my Max's brake performance on stock components is anything to go by
02-21-2008, 10:48 AM
#60
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Its possible, but you will at the same time increase the leg effort required to actually manage the same stopping power ................ if you can live with that its fine, but without knowing if you are going to be happy up front it may turn out to be a permanent pain mod.
Usually MS characteristics are closely matched to the brake component specs as well as the booster's characteristics. I don't know for sure that the boosters are different, but if you do the MS swap, I would suggest you get a matching booster too.
IMO its not worth the effort as very little will be gained in real life if my Max's brake performance on stock components is anything to go by
Usually MS characteristics are closely matched to the brake component specs as well as the booster's characteristics. I don't know for sure that the boosters are different, but if you do the MS swap, I would suggest you get a matching booster too.
IMO its not worth the effort as very little will be gained in real life if my Max's brake performance on stock components is anything to go by
02-22-2008, 10:39 AM
#61
Definitely good advices here. I recently had to replace a brake line, and what a PAIN trying to bleed the brakes afterward! I just could not get rid of the "sponge". Suspected issues are 1) it seems almost impossible to get the bleeder screw at the right amount of looseness. Just barely cracked open= not enough, so you're getting no flow out. Open it just a cnt hair more = too much, and the pedal immediately goes down to the floor again. 2) the fluid seems to FOAM as it comes out. I don't know why, I've never seen that before, but that's surely not a positive thing. Does any of this ring a bell for anyone?
02-22-2008, 10:47 AM
#62
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I didnt see any foam, but after having bled for 4 days in a row I got real good at twisting those screws just right. At the moment I think the car has bled me, and not the other way around.
I ordered a rebuild kit, I'd like to get it on Saturday so I can get things finished... but it probably wont arrive until early next week. I also confirmed that the eBay one I found is indeed brand new, not a reman. Either way, the M/C will be removed tomorrow so look out for some photos of what a dead one looks like on the inside.
I ordered a rebuild kit, I'd like to get it on Saturday so I can get things finished... but it probably wont arrive until early next week. I also confirmed that the eBay one I found is indeed brand new, not a reman. Either way, the M/C will be removed tomorrow so look out for some photos of what a dead one looks like on the inside.
02-22-2008, 10:52 AM
#63
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Definitely good advices here. I recently had to replace a brake line, and what a PAIN trying to bleed the brakes afterward! I just could not get rid of the "sponge". Suspected issues are 1) it seems almost impossible to get the bleeder screw at the right amount of looseness. Just barely cracked open= not enough, so you're getting no flow out. Open it just a cnt hair more = too much, and the pedal immediately goes down to the floor again. 2) the fluid seems to FOAM as it comes out. I don't know why, I've never seen that before, but that's surely not a positive thing. Does any of this ring a bell for anyone?
1. Not enough bleeding yet or
2. You are allowing air into the MC by not keeping it filled or
3. You leave the bleeder nipple open while "pumping" the pedal - ie - wrong bleed technique or
4. You have a stuffed MC ..................
in all cases see my earlier posts
02-22-2008, 01:45 PM
#64
02-22-2008, 08:03 PM
#65
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The MC's built-in spring/valve assemblies will already start to depressurize the fluid in a line as soon as the pedal hit the floor with the bleeder open, and can (and do) suck air back into the system through the open bleeder nipple.
02-22-2008, 08:20 PM
#66
IMO that is incorrect bleeding technique - you need to close the bleeder BEFORE the pedal hits the floor.
The MC's built-in spring/valve assemblies will already start to depressurize the fluid in a line as soon as the pedal hit the floor with the bleeder open, and can (and do) suck air back into the system through the open bleeder nipple.
The MC's built-in spring/valve assemblies will already start to depressurize the fluid in a line as soon as the pedal hit the floor with the bleeder open, and can (and do) suck air back into the system through the open bleeder nipple.
aint it?
02-22-2008, 08:25 PM
#67
so when you do it, the hose is going into a container of brake fluid that came out of the bleeder, yes? so no air can come back up the hose?
brake bleeding and brake balance is always sort of a funny thing. my car feels to have a TON of front bias, more than I think it should.. to the point where i sometimes use the handbrake in conjunction with the footbrake just to maintain some sort of decent brake feel... so it slows down great from speed to 30, then i slowly increase brake pedal pressure but it never seems to be enough because the car ALWAYS slows down too slowly under 30mph for my tastes. my grandpa's 84 cutlass supreme (3.8L OHV V6 2bbl, RWD) is the total opposite. maybe cuz it's RWD and when it kicks down the gearing shifts the effective braking bias to the rear. but for whatever reason the brakes are VERY touchy on this thing. i hold the pressure steady... the car doesn't slow down hardly at all. so i find the point where the brakes begin to grab... slowly slows but when it hits 25mph the thing STOPS LIKE MAD. Possibly for kicking into 2nd gear? but my god it stops once it hits 25mph. so if it both cars had my braking over 25mph and its braking under 25mph, it'd be awesome. the olds also has an issue where the pedal drops after you press it.. like you push the brake pedal with the engine running and it's nice and firm.. then slowly softens.
so if brake line pressure is not a problem.. is it a real bad thing if there is a decent bit of dust on the shoes and drum lining? will that greatly affect braking performance? or just a little? or not at all?
brake bleeding and brake balance is always sort of a funny thing. my car feels to have a TON of front bias, more than I think it should.. to the point where i sometimes use the handbrake in conjunction with the footbrake just to maintain some sort of decent brake feel... so it slows down great from speed to 30, then i slowly increase brake pedal pressure but it never seems to be enough because the car ALWAYS slows down too slowly under 30mph for my tastes. my grandpa's 84 cutlass supreme (3.8L OHV V6 2bbl, RWD) is the total opposite. maybe cuz it's RWD and when it kicks down the gearing shifts the effective braking bias to the rear. but for whatever reason the brakes are VERY touchy on this thing. i hold the pressure steady... the car doesn't slow down hardly at all. so i find the point where the brakes begin to grab... slowly slows but when it hits 25mph the thing STOPS LIKE MAD. Possibly for kicking into 2nd gear? but my god it stops once it hits 25mph. so if it both cars had my braking over 25mph and its braking under 25mph, it'd be awesome. the olds also has an issue where the pedal drops after you press it.. like you push the brake pedal with the engine running and it's nice and firm.. then slowly softens.
so if brake line pressure is not a problem.. is it a real bad thing if there is a decent bit of dust on the shoes and drum lining? will that greatly affect braking performance? or just a little? or not at all?
Last edited by CapedCadaver; 02-22-2008 at 08:33 PM.
02-22-2008, 08:31 PM
#68
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Sure - but only with a system completely filled with only brakefluid - including the hose running down into the bled fluid.
If any air bubbles are in the system and got bled out of the open nipple, and the pedal hits the floor (depressurizing the line), the contents of the hose (fluid and air) can and do get suck back up into the line you are trying to bleed.
If any air bubbles are in the system and got bled out of the open nipple, and the pedal hits the floor (depressurizing the line), the contents of the hose (fluid and air) can and do get suck back up into the line you are trying to bleed.
02-22-2008, 09:12 PM
#69
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Sure - but only with a system completely filled with only brakefluid - including the hose running down into the bled fluid.
If any air bubbles are in the system and got bled out of the open nipple, and the pedal hits the floor (depressurizing the line), the contents of the hose (fluid and air) can and do get suck back up into the line you are trying to bleed.
If any air bubbles are in the system and got bled out of the open nipple, and the pedal hits the floor (depressurizing the line), the contents of the hose (fluid and air) can and do get suck back up into the line you are trying to bleed.
Bleeding shouldnt stop until it is confirmed that no bubbles remain, which should mean that a large portion of the clear line is bubble-free and contains fresh fluid. With this being the case, it shouldnt matter if some gets pulled back in before the valve is closed.
My rebuild kit is coming tomorrow, shipped from a local warehouse!
Assuming the inside has no scratching or pitting, I should be back on the road enjoying stopping power real soon.
02-22-2008, 09:15 PM
#70
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How are your struts/springs? If the front dips too much, rear traction is lost you've got bias. There are some very insightful articles on all this at StopTech, I've been reading a lot there since this whole thing started.
02-22-2008, 09:28 PM
#71
How are your struts/springs? If the front dips too much, rear traction is lost you've got bias. There are some very insightful articles on all this at StopTech, I've been reading a lot there since this whole thing started.
anyhow, thing is.. when i pull the handbrake when stopping, it helps greatly, as opposed to locking the back tires, so rear traction is still fine.
02-22-2008, 09:35 PM
#72
Hey everyone is pointing you in the MC direction and I agree but I'm going to encourage you to check your guidepins on your calipers and make sure they're not frozen in.
I had the same problem after with my G/Fs Max after she had brand new rear pads. rotors and calipers and a new master cylinder. After warrantying some stuff (MC) and tons of bleeding...I decided to take everything apart and put it back and found the front caliper guidepins to be stuck causing the pedal to sink ALL THE WAY. It wasnt her MC afterall!
There's a thread I made about a year ago for it, just thought I point that out too
I had the same problem after with my G/Fs Max after she had brand new rear pads. rotors and calipers and a new master cylinder. After warrantying some stuff (MC) and tons of bleeding...I decided to take everything apart and put it back and found the front caliper guidepins to be stuck causing the pedal to sink ALL THE WAY. It wasnt her MC afterall!
There's a thread I made about a year ago for it, just thought I point that out too
02-23-2008, 05:30 PM
#74
Hey everyone is pointing you in the MC direction and I agree but I'm going to encourage you to check your guidepins on your calipers and make sure they're not frozen in.
I had the same problem after with my G/Fs Max after she had brand new rear pads. rotors and calipers and a new master cylinder. After warrantying some stuff (MC) and tons of bleeding...I decided to take everything apart and put it back and found the front caliper guidepins to be stuck causing the pedal to sink ALL THE WAY. It wasnt her MC afterall!
There's a thread I made about a year ago for it, just thought I point that out too
I had the same problem after with my G/Fs Max after she had brand new rear pads. rotors and calipers and a new master cylinder. After warrantying some stuff (MC) and tons of bleeding...I decided to take everything apart and put it back and found the front caliper guidepins to be stuck causing the pedal to sink ALL THE WAY. It wasnt her MC afterall!
There's a thread I made about a year ago for it, just thought I point that out too
02-25-2008, 03:57 PM
#76
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On Saturday I had everything disassembled and cleaned, also drained the entire system and compressed all pistons. FedEx only brought the kit today though, despite being "out for delivery" on Saturday.
I don't think I'll have time to mess with it tonight, but here is a photo of old (top) pistons and new (bottom) master cylinder pistons. They look identical aside from the secondary spring, but close up the rubber insulators are designed a bit different, and the new ones look like they point out a bit more.
I don't think I'll have time to mess with it tonight, but here is a photo of old (top) pistons and new (bottom) master cylinder pistons. They look identical aside from the secondary spring, but close up the rubber insulators are designed a bit different, and the new ones look like they point out a bit more.
Last edited by Greeny; 03-04-2008 at 08:21 AM. Reason: picture resize
02-25-2008, 04:09 PM
#77
Yeah, that's normal, your old one used to look like that but it has just worn down over time. That's just how the old and new rubber pieces looked when I rebuilt my clutch master.
Last edited by Greeny; 02-25-2008 at 04:13 PM.
03-03-2008, 03:44 PM
#78
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Two days ago I put those new pistons into the master cylinder, bled it, bled the lines... brakes got even worse. Its getting a ride on a big truck tomorrow... I'll let my go-to mechanic and his shop deal with it.
This is the first time with this car that I have been fed up enough to quit the work and hand it off to get done right by someone with more equipment and experience.
This is the first time with this car that I have been fed up enough to quit the work and hand it off to get done right by someone with more equipment and experience.
03-04-2008, 12:49 AM
#79
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Two days ago I put those new pistons into the master cylinder, bled it, bled the lines... brakes got even worse. Its getting a ride on a big truck tomorrow... I'll let my go-to mechanic and his shop deal with it.
This is the first time with this car that I have been fed up enough to quit the work and hand it off to get done right by someone with more equipment and experience.
This is the first time with this car that I have been fed up enough to quit the work and hand it off to get done right by someone with more equipment and experience.
If the guys you give it to can be trusted, then a report back as to what went wrong would be interesting once the vehicle is sorted.
03-04-2008, 08:16 AM
#80
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Must say that given the fact that you are quite adamant that no leaks exist, I am rather disappointed that you didn't follow some/all of my recipes posted earlier to get to the bottom of this all as I have yet too find a vehicle of which the brakes cannot be sorted by simple logical faultfinding along the lines I suggested.
If the guys you give it to can be trusted, then a report back as to what went wrong would be interesting once the vehicle is sorted.
If the guys you give it to can be trusted, then a report back as to what went wrong would be interesting once the vehicle is sorted.
All in all, its just more about frustration now. I got completely sick of dealing with it, helper availability was sporatic, and I wanted the car back on the road after all the down time. The shop is very good.