Better TB coolant bypass method.
12-16-2007, 12:59 PM
#1
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Better TB coolant bypass method.
the only way i have heard of bypassing the coolant lines on the Throttle Body was to buy a hard connector, and connect the lines that ran into either side of the TB.
What heppens when you use this method, is that you're basically still touching the coolant lines to the TB, so while you still have no coolant INSIDE the TB, it is still running below and touching it, so heat transfer is still happening.
I found that if you remove the REAR line from the IACV itself....and run the line from the front directly into the IACV, it effectively bypasses it, and runs it WAY below the TB itself.
I originally thought about blocking it, but upon further inspection of coolant diagrams, the only place the IACV gets its coolant is from the TB passage...and the IACV relies on coolant temperate to determine idle air control, and a few other things.
coolant line running from the Lower Intake Manifold, to the IACV:
Since the Lower intake manifold line already had bends in it....the extra bend created at the IACV inlet isn't enough to create a restriction, although it looked like it at first.
Don't mind the dirty bay....cleaning it piece by piece is going to be a long process
What heppens when you use this method, is that you're basically still touching the coolant lines to the TB, so while you still have no coolant INSIDE the TB, it is still running below and touching it, so heat transfer is still happening.
I found that if you remove the REAR line from the IACV itself....and run the line from the front directly into the IACV, it effectively bypasses it, and runs it WAY below the TB itself.
I originally thought about blocking it, but upon further inspection of coolant diagrams, the only place the IACV gets its coolant is from the TB passage...and the IACV relies on coolant temperate to determine idle air control, and a few other things.
coolant line running from the Lower Intake Manifold, to the IACV:
Since the Lower intake manifold line already had bends in it....the extra bend created at the IACV inlet isn't enough to create a restriction, although it looked like it at first.
Don't mind the dirty bay....cleaning it piece by piece is going to be a long process
12-16-2007, 03:45 PM
#3
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excellent....i was looking at it when i had the TB off....going "why do i need to buy a connector....won't the IM hose fit onto the IACV??"
tested it and yes...it did, i felt accomplished.
tested it and yes...it did, i felt accomplished.
12-16-2007, 04:01 PM
#4
So, did you actually feel any difference? I know what it is effectively "supposed" to do, but under daily driving (and getting on it now and then) could you actually feel a throttle response gain?
12-16-2007, 04:10 PM
#5
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haven't been able to test it all out yet, as i've only JUST got my TPS adjusted correctly, and won't be getting the car up to operating temperatures until tomorrow morning....will update you guys on it tomorrow afternoon
12-16-2007, 04:29 PM
#6
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It should just help out with heat soak, most of his improvements will be from cleaning the TB though.
I did something like that on my 240, just contorted the stock hoses to completely bypass the IM and TB. It works good, and the IM is always air temp.
~Alex
I did something like that on my 240, just contorted the stock hoses to completely bypass the IM and TB. It works good, and the IM is always air temp.
~Alex
12-16-2007, 09:01 PM
#8
from the factory its there to prevent stickage in cold temperatures. except that you have to use the throttle before the coolant is warm enough to unstick the throttle anyways so it seems kinda pointless. removing this helps keep the metal intake parts cooler, and cooler air means more power.
12-16-2007, 09:39 PM
#9
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from the factory its there to prevent stickage in cold temperatures. except that you have to use the throttle before the coolant is warm enough to unstick the throttle anyways so it seems kinda pointless. removing this helps keep the metal intake parts cooler, and cooler air means more power.
true... in older cars...like my previous gmc sierra, there is a pipe running from the exhaust to the intake....raising intake temperatures so that the engine warms up faster...but after the engine is warmed up, is it all just extra 'unwanted' heat...
good theory, but without a temperature controlled selection valve, it is kind of counteractive.
12-16-2007, 10:34 PM
#10
true... in older cars...like my previous gmc sierra, there is a pipe running from the exhaust to the intake....raising intake temperatures so that the engine warms up faster...but after the engine is warmed up, is it all just extra 'unwanted' heat...
good theory, but without a temperature controlled selection valve, it is kind of counteractive.
good theory, but without a temperature controlled selection valve, it is kind of counteractive.
12-17-2007, 05:56 AM
#11
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how about running a refrigerant line through the TB instead, nissan? Gawsh! ;x
actually that would get a good way to cool the air going through the TB very well...but running your compressor would automatically negate the benefits.
actually that would get a good way to cool the air going through the TB very well...but running your compressor would automatically negate the benefits.
12-17-2007, 07:45 PM
#12
not necessarily. run the compressor for a while, get the sucker NICE AND COLD, shut compressor off (or shut engine off and take off compressor belt) and take a run down the track.
12-17-2007, 08:33 PM
#13
the vehicle’s air conditioning system is used to chill a small storage tank of coolant to about 30 degrees Fahrenheit. On demand, the SuperCooler system switches the intercooler flow from its normal circulation and dumps the chilled coolant into the engine’s intercooler. In turn, the intercooler dissipates up to 20 percent more heat from the charge air – resulting in a denser air charge.
12-17-2007, 08:42 PM
#14
ya but it still has minor bearing drag/friction drag, if you're really being hardcore about it. if you are like aaron and run w/o alternator belt at the track, A/C comes off first.. that's why i said to remove the belt. but yes, it would make sense to just leave it on and turn the compressor off. i had my belt off, and the pulley rotated absolutely effortlessly while freewheeling.
12-17-2007, 09:08 PM
#16
little things here and there, getting more out of the engine, more out of the shifts. hence why my car is .5sec faster than it should be after just a WAI and aaron's spacers/coolant bypass. and i lose power to my broken studs.
12-17-2007, 10:35 PM
#17
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well...the balloon thing is kond of weird....but if you had an A/C duct running into the intake as well....got your air nice and cold....turned the A/C off, then made a run while it was still pushing that last bit of cold air......now that's intercooling.
or if you had a co2 spray system that would spray the liquid co2 onto different intake components at the track, that would work great. (as long as you weren't letting the engine breathe the co2, of course.....but you would also have to make sure no parts being sprayed are hot, else you will crack them
or if you had a co2 spray system that would spray the liquid co2 onto different intake components at the track, that would work great. (as long as you weren't letting the engine breathe the co2, of course.....but you would also have to make sure no parts being sprayed are hot, else you will crack them
12-18-2007, 03:30 AM
#18
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well...the balloon thing is kond of weird....but if you had an A/C duct running into the intake as well....got your air nice and cold....turned the A/C off, then made a run while it was still pushing that last bit of cold air......now that's intercooling.
or if you had a co2 spray system that would spray the liquid co2 onto different intake components at the track, that would work great. (as long as you weren't letting the engine breathe the co2, of course.....but you would also have to make sure no parts being sprayed are hot, else you will crack them
or if you had a co2 spray system that would spray the liquid co2 onto different intake components at the track, that would work great. (as long as you weren't letting the engine breathe the co2, of course.....but you would also have to make sure no parts being sprayed are hot, else you will crack them
12-18-2007, 06:25 AM
#19
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Originally Posted by sonicii
Liquid CO2? Isn't CO2 one of those substances that turns direclty from a solid to a gas at atmospheric temperature? So by the time it is released from the nozle, it would be a gas, still very cold, but you lose the latent heat of vapourisation advantage.. Maybe liquid nitrogen would be the go??
Originally Posted by wiki
At −78.51° C or -109.3° F, carbon dioxide changes directly from a solid phase to a gaseous phase through sublimation, or from gaseous to solid through deposition. Solid carbon dioxide is normally called "dry ice", a generic trademark. It was first observed in 1825 by the French chemist Charles Thilorier. Dry ice is commonly used as a versatile cooling agent, and it is relatively inexpensive. As it warms, solid carbon dioxide sublimes directly into the gas phase, making its use convenient as it leaves no liquid. It can often be found in groceries and laboratories, and it is also used in the shipping industry. The largest non-cooling use for dry ice is blast cleaning.
Originally Posted by wiki
Gas duster (also erroneously referred to as canned air) is a product consisting of liquified difluoroethane, trifluoroethane, or tetrafluoroethane in a spray can, with a long nozzle that enables the user to direct a precisely focused blast of gas. Gas dusters do not use compressed air, but other inert gases that are much easier to compress into a liquid state. Hydrocarbons, like butane, were often used in the past, but their flammability forced manufacturers to use fluorocarbons.
When the can is held upright and activated, gas flows out through the nozzle. The pressure inside the can therefore drops, and is no longer sufficient to keep the contents as a liquid; so some of the liquid boils, until the equilibrium pressure is re-established. The vaporization of a liquid is endothermic, so heat is absorbed, and the can becomes cold.
If the can is held upside down, then its contents are expelled as a liquid. This liquid evaporates very quickly at standard temperature and pressure, chilling anything in contact with it. This process can produce very cold temperatures, easily sufficient to cause frostbite. Similar cans with dip tubes are marketed as "freeze spray," and will expel liquid when held right side up.
When the can is held upright and activated, gas flows out through the nozzle. The pressure inside the can therefore drops, and is no longer sufficient to keep the contents as a liquid; so some of the liquid boils, until the equilibrium pressure is re-established. The vaporization of a liquid is endothermic, so heat is absorbed, and the can becomes cold.
If the can is held upside down, then its contents are expelled as a liquid. This liquid evaporates very quickly at standard temperature and pressure, chilling anything in contact with it. This process can produce very cold temperatures, easily sufficient to cause frostbite. Similar cans with dip tubes are marketed as "freeze spray," and will expel liquid when held right side up.
Originally Posted by wiki
Liquid nitrogen can easily be converted to the solid by placing it in a vacuum chamber pumped by a rotary vacuum pump.[1] Liquid nitrogen freezes at −210 °C (−346 °F). Despite its reputation, liquid nitrogen's efficiency as a coolant is reduced by the fact that it boils immediately on contact with warmer object, enveloping it in insulating nitrogen gas. This effect is known as the Leidenfrost effect applies to any liquid in contact with an object significantly hotter than its boiling point. More rapid cooling may be obtained by plunging an object into slush of liquid and solid nitrogen, than into liquid nitrogen alone. That said, liquid nitrogen alone is sufficient for most applications.
Last edited by ustfdes; 12-18-2007 at 06:37 AM.
12-18-2007, 10:19 AM
#20
The only reason this fitting was included in the NWP Engineering Spacer Kit for the VE30DE was to make the bypass easier and simpler. Once bypassed, the hose on my VE is no where near the TB, probably b/c I also have a coolant temp gauge sending unit in that same hose. So the hose is much longer than stock. But if it is touching the TB or intake tubing, the amount of heat that would transfer through the rubber hose, then through the TB is minimal.
A TB Coolant Bypass by itself won't show any noticeable gains in HP. But you should notice a slightly cooler TB than before. This can easily be measured by an infrared thermometer.
But, the method ustfdes describes is the best and cleanest method of doing the bypass. But, the fitting that is included in the Thermal Intake Spacer Kit just makes it a 5 second job.
A TB Coolant Bypass by itself won't show any noticeable gains in HP. But you should notice a slightly cooler TB than before. This can easily be measured by an infrared thermometer.
But, the method ustfdes describes is the best and cleanest method of doing the bypass. But, the fitting that is included in the Thermal Intake Spacer Kit just makes it a 5 second job.
12-18-2007, 11:28 AM
#21
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The only reason this fitting was included in the NWP Engineering Spacer Kit for the VE30DE was to make the bypass easier and simpler. Once bypassed, the hose on my VE is no where near the TB, probably b/c I also have a coolant temp gauge sending unit in that same hose. So the hose is much longer than stock. But if it is touching the TB or intake tubing, the amount of heat that would transfer through the rubber hose, then through the TB is minimal.
A TB Coolant Bypass by itself won't show any noticeable gains in HP. But you should notice a slightly cooler TB than before. This can easily be measured by an infrared thermometer.
But, the method ustfdes describes is the best and cleanest method of doing the bypass. But, the fitting that is included in the Thermal Intake Spacer Kit just makes it a 5 second job.
A TB Coolant Bypass by itself won't show any noticeable gains in HP. But you should notice a slightly cooler TB than before. This can easily be measured by an infrared thermometer.
But, the method ustfdes describes is the best and cleanest method of doing the bypass. But, the fitting that is included in the Thermal Intake Spacer Kit just makes it a 5 second job.
thanks for clearing that up aaron....i wasn't sure how it was routed using the kit for sure, andi know the heat transfer would be minimal, and in no way was i trying to 'debunk' your kit or anything.
it would have been easier with your kit, but since i had the TB out, this seemed the best way for ME at the time.
someone did this after i did it the other night and ran into issues with losing coolant from the IACV while switching the hoses, which wouldn't happen with your kit..... but i never experienced this problem.
12-18-2007, 12:10 PM
#22
I didn't take my intake tube off, and it was night so I accidentally disconnected what appears to be the heater coolant return line, the hose for this is also on a 90 bend like the IACV hose, except it's down below further. I didn't start the car or anything and realized soon there after when I had another look. I did your method and it works perfectly.
12-18-2007, 12:36 PM
#23
thanks for clearing that up aaron....i wasn't sure how it was routed using the kit for sure, andi know the heat transfer would be minimal, and in no way was i trying to 'debunk' your kit or anything.
it would have been easier with your kit, but since i had the TB out, this seemed the best way for ME at the time.
someone did this after i did it the other night and ran into issues with losing coolant from the IACV while switching the hoses, which wouldn't happen with your kit..... but i never experienced this problem.
it would have been easier with your kit, but since i had the TB out, this seemed the best way for ME at the time.
someone did this after i did it the other night and ran into issues with losing coolant from the IACV while switching the hoses, which wouldn't happen with your kit..... but i never experienced this problem.
And don't worry. I didn't think you were "debunking" my kit.
12-18-2007, 05:23 PM
#24
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And I'm glad you mentioned coolant loss. That's another reason why I included the fitting instead of providing just a longer hose by itself. It was easier to remove from the TB itself than to reach down there and mess with the IACV hose. And since you are able to keep the two TB hoses up high, you won't spill more than a few drops of coolant by using the fitting.
And don't worry. I didn't think you were "debunking" my kit.
And don't worry. I didn't think you were "debunking" my kit.
do you sell the kit seperately, or only include it with the spacers?
12-18-2007, 08:39 PM
#25
well...the balloon thing is kond of weird....but if you had an A/C duct running into the intake as well....got your air nice and cold....turned the A/C off, then made a run while it was still pushing that last bit of cold air......now that's intercooling.
or if you had a co2 spray system that would spray the liquid co2 onto different intake components at the track, that would work great. (as long as you weren't letting the engine breathe the co2, of course.....but you would also have to make sure no parts being sprayed are hot, else you will crack them
or if you had a co2 spray system that would spray the liquid co2 onto different intake components at the track, that would work great. (as long as you weren't letting the engine breathe the co2, of course.....but you would also have to make sure no parts being sprayed are hot, else you will crack them
12-19-2007, 08:49 AM
#26
I do sell an EGR Block Kit for the VE30DE on my website, www.nwpengineering.com.
But as far as the TB coolant bypass kit, it's not a kit. It's just a barbed fitting. I have plenty of those in stock if anybody is interested.
Here is the complete NWP Engineering EGR Block Kit, which includes the coolant bypass fitting:
But as far as the TB coolant bypass kit, it's not a kit. It's just a barbed fitting. I have plenty of those in stock if anybody is interested.
Here is the complete NWP Engineering EGR Block Kit, which includes the coolant bypass fitting:
12-19-2007, 04:37 PM
#27
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I do sell an EGR Block Kit for the VE30DE on my website, www.nwpengineering.com.
But as far as the TB coolant bypass kit, it's not a kit. It's just a barbed fitting. I have plenty of those in stock if anybody is interested.
But as far as the TB coolant bypass kit, it's not a kit. It's just a barbed fitting. I have plenty of those in stock if anybody is interested.
for the record, your products seem to be top quality, and i plan on VE spacers one day after my major stuff is complete
And had i/we not found this bypass method and blocked the EGR on our own, i would have went with your EGR block and TB bypass kit. but if you dont get on AIM sometime soon so i can run some thoughts by you, i will......i dunno, jsut get on AIM ;x
12-19-2007, 04:42 PM
#28
12-19-2007, 05:12 PM
#29
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and i do believe he is serious. i think greenie stays off AIM these days to hide from me. ;X i only have some questions for aaron that i'd rather ask off teh forums, for one reason or another.
BECAUSE I HATE YOU, maxima.org.
anyways, maxima.org, let's make-up, because make-up sex is teh best.
12-19-2007, 06:30 PM
#30
Haha!
The only reason I don't spend as much time on AIM as I use to is b/c of NWP Engineering. I am way to busy to chat, especially during business hours.
But if anybody needs to ask me any questions pertaining to our products or company, please email me. My email address is on my website.
www.nwpengineering.com
[aaron@nwpengineering.com]
The only reason I don't spend as much time on AIM as I use to is b/c of NWP Engineering. I am way to busy to chat, especially during business hours.
But if anybody needs to ask me any questions pertaining to our products or company, please email me. My email address is on my website.
www.nwpengineering.com
[aaron@nwpengineering.com]
12-19-2007, 06:32 PM
#31
I will be on AIM for a little while tonight. If you miss me, please email me. I will be able to respond in much less time than you waiting for me to sign into AIM.
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